blueadams

Though I don't think that we're going to have the horses to make a finals run this post-season (esp. with DeKeyser out), I have been quite impressed with our young core in the last two games, and to end the regular season.  I don't think that next season is going to be the season either (too many bad contracts still on the books - M. Samuelsson, T. Bertuzzi, P. Eaves, K. Quincey, C. Colaiacovo).  But the next season, I think, could be the season..

IF we can get Pavel to return for an extra season after his contract expires.  IF we can retain the rest of our talent on expiring contracts.  And IF we can add an elite goal-scoring wing and RH PP D-Man..

I think we could have a team that's good enough to win it all again, in two seasons.

 

What do you guys think?  And where might we find that elite wing and defenseman?  

J. Franzen-P. Datsyuk-???
V. Filppula-H. Zetterberg-D. Brunner
G. Nyquist-C. Jarnkrok-T. Tatar
J. Abdelkader-D. Helm-J. Andersson
C. Emmerton, J. Tootoo
*R. Sheahan, T. Pulkkinen, T. Jurco, M. Frk

N. Kronwall-???
D. DeKeyser-J. Ericsson
B. Smith-J. Kindl
B. Lashoff
*R. Sproul, X. Oullet

J. Howard
P. Mrazek
*T. McCollum

Datsyuk's retiring after next season.  There's no realistic chance that we're going to be able to get out of the garbage Holland's gotten us into by next season (not enough to be a legitimate championship contender, at least).  Let's be the first team ever to know when is when, and blow it up to jump-start a rebuild.

Trade Datsyuk.  He'll make a middling contender into the favorite to win the next two Stanley Cups.  He's got a lot more value than most players in his situation.  Put him out there and take the best draft pick/prospect/young player package you can get - ASAP (trade deadline, this season).  Honor Pav.  Part on good terms.  Give him the chance he deserves to win two more rings.  Retire his jersey soon thereafter.   

Trade Franzen.  I've had enough of him too.  Still got several years left in him.  Manageable contract.  Still a big name.  Still excites with memories.  Still has value.  Float him out there and take the best draft pick/prospect/young player package you can get - ASAP (trade deadline, this season).

Filppula.  He's topped out and it's not that great.  Similar to Mule in terms of mistaken apparent value.  Little less due to expiring contract.  Still, plenty of value at the deadline.  Put him out there and take the best draft pick/prospect/young player combo we can get.

Samuelsson.  Trade him if you can.  Buy him out if you can't.

Quincey.  Trade him if you can.  Buy him out if you can't.

Colaiacovo.  Trade him if you can.  Bu..

Bertuzzi.  Trade him if you can.  Bu..

Eaves.  Trade him if you can.  Bu..

Gustavsson.  Trade him if you can.  Bu..

 

Cleary.  Trade him if you can.  Let him walk at the end of the season if you can't.

White.  Trade him if you can.  Let him walk at the end of the season if you can't.

Miller.  Trade him if you can.  Let him walk at the end of the season if you can't.

Huskins.  Let him walk at the end of the season.

Kronwall?  I'd float his name out there to see what we could get in return; but I'd probably prefer to keep him as the leader of our next generation's defense.

Zetterberg?  Again, I'd float his name out there as well to see what we could get in return; but again, I'd probably prefer to keep him as the leader of our next generation's forwards - and team as a whole.

 

 

 

 

 

Call up all the kids and see what they can do.  Mix in all the picks, prospects and young players we're going to get from the above moves with what we've got below.

Tatar-Zetterberg-Brunner(UFA)
Nyquist(RFA)-Jarnkrok-Pulkkinen
Frk-Helm-Jurco
Andersson(RFA)-Abdelkader-Sheahan
Emmerton, Tootoo

Kronwall-Ericsson
Smith-Lashoff
Kindl-Sproul
Oullet

Howard(UFA)
Mrazek

 

 

 

 

 

Also.  I think it's time for Mr. Holland to hang em up as well.  Bring in Yzerman to handle the rebuild.  The mistakes Holland has made in getting us into this mess - and wasting the second half of Datsyuk's career -  are too many to name.  The bottom line is that he hasn't done one good thing since Bowman left the organization (as an advisor).

Hahahahaha,

I took the lockout off brothers and sisters (believe it or not, I've been real busy - trying to get into grad-school).  I'm back now though.  Appreciate all the love!  Lines threads coming soon..
 

What are everyone's lines. Hopefully this will attract BlueAdams.

Nyquist - Datsyuk - Franzen
Filppula - Z - Brunner
Clearly - Abdelkader - Sammy
Tootoo - Helm - Bertuzzi
Scratches: Miller, Eaves Mursak

Kronwall - White
Quincey - Ericsson
Smith - Colo/Kindl

Howard
Gus

I'm not an ESPN insider, so I can't read the entire article.  If someone here who is wouldn't mind posting the entire article, that'd be great.  I found 1-16 on another message board here: http://www.fvsports....86099&p=2921701.  Detroit is not included in that top 16, and I've read elsewhere that we were ranked behind a team in the 20's.  

Not that ESPN knows much about hockey, but this certainly isn't good news.

If he signs a one year deal, I'm jumping on the fire Holland bandwagon.  I mean wtf man.  What's the risk!?  One year!?  Why in the hell would you just let that cap space rot away!?

We were a 5 seed last season.  We've gotten a lot, lot, lot worse defensively.  We haven't improved that much offensively.  Assuming that we're going to be a six seed next season like some of you are...

Red Wing arrogance and ignorance.

Don't read too much into the lines I posted here.  I just threw a best-guess out there to give us a look.  Pay more attention to the additions/subtractions.  What do we think?

*(I'm also assuming here that RFA's Quincey and Abdelkader are returned)

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Damien Brunner ($1.350m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.866m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)
Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m)
Jan Mursak ($0.550m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ian White ($2.875m)
Kyle Quincey ($3.250m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $57,483,295; BONUSES: $462,500
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $12,716,705

Offensively:  Top line remains the exact same (Didn't get Pav the help Babcock said we needed to).  Samuelsson - or Brunner, if we got a gem there - replaces Hudler on the second line.  Is that an improvement or a step back?  Better defensively.  Most would probably a little worse offensively.  Overall, I think it's an improvement.  In the bottom six I guess Brunner - or Samuelsson - replaces Holmstrom.  Probably an improvement in full-strength play, but a step back on the Power Play.  Nyquist steps into the lineup full-time, essentially replacing Miller I guess.  That gives us a little more scoring depth, but probably hurts a little defensively.  Then Tootoo brings some of the grit we wanted to add to the lineup, essentially replacing Emmerton from last season's lineup.  That's a bottom-line improvement to me.

...So, in general, what we wanted to do and what we did?  We wanted to add some grit, we did in Tootoo.  We wanted to add some scoring depth, we did in adding Brunner, Samuelsson and Nyquist to the lineup (assuming that two of those three can at least match Hudler and Holmstrom's offensive production).  And we wanted to get Pav some elite level help on that first line, which we didn't do.  Which is why it's strange to me that we appear to not be interested in Semin, or even Doan.  It'll be so, so costly to trade for a player that could make that kind of impact.  In general then - - - I think that we got a little better offensively, but not good enough, not by far.

Defensively: #1 thing we needed to do was replace Lidstrom with an elite level defenseman and we didn't.  Brendan Smith essentially replaces him.  That's not even close to being good enough.  #2 thing we needed to do was replace Stuart with at least an above average defenseman and, again, we didn't.  Jakub Kindl (who is just awful IMO) essentially replaces him.  That's not even close to being good enough either.  #3 thing we needed to do was replace Conklin with a better backup, and while I don't know much about the Monster, all reports and opinions seem to imply that we were successful in that regard.

...In general though, we're just going to be so, so much worse defensively next season.  So much worse.  We need to trade for a defenseman much worse than we need to for a forward IMO.  But again, it will just be so, so costly.

Overall: The way things stand...not really improving that much offensively and getting so much worse defensively...this might be the season that we don't make the playoffs.  The rest of the Western Conference has really, really been improving over the last two or three seasons.  I see us as a borderline playoff team right now, and that's if things go well, relatively speaking.

Lebrun: "Detroit has another avenue: wait it out until the new collective bargaining agreement is signed, sealed and delivered. Several teams I’ve spoken with over the past few weeks believe there will be bargains to be had on good players come September, October or November -- whenever there’s a new CBA -- because some overspending teams will have miscalculated and will need to get rid of players to get under the new cap. At least a half-dozen teams I know of are waiting for this. Detroit could benefit from that as well."

http://espn.go.com/b...s-and-rick-nash

Holland low-balled Schultz, Parise and Suter this off-season.  No doubt about it.  He screwed up.  No excuses.

...Schultz was very, very interested in us.  We were, I think, 1 of 2 non western-Canadien teams on his list.  He talked to us.  And as soon as he talked to us, he was no longer interested.  He wanted a top 4 guarantee.  We wouldn't give it to him.  I'm sure Holland/Babcock told him something along the lines of "you'll have a great chance to compete with six other defensemen" and he said "no thanks".  Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith and Kindl were the only defensemen on our roster at that point.   you're telling me we couldn't guarantee him a spot over Smith, to at least start the season!?  Even if we signed Suter, we couldn't guarantee him a spot over Ericsson!?  Why the hell not just tell him that he'll get one, give him one early in the season, and let him keep it or lose it.  Step one is getting him here and we blew it because we're arrogant morons.

...Parise and Suter were a package deal the entire way.  We completely insulted Parise with our offer and he didn't want to come here.  Hence, Suter wasn't coming here.  Again, arrogant morons.

Let's take a look at the resume' of one Ken Holland from July 2008 to now.

July 2008 is when Scotty Bowman left our then great organization to work alongside his son in the Blackhawks front-office (I'm not sure of the exact date, so I'll just include all the things that happened that month on Holland's post-Bowman resume').  There are those here who believe that Bowman's role in our organization as an advisor was not a large one, but I am certainly not one of those fans.  I think that Holland having Bowman to go to for advice made a very significant difference in a lot of things around here; and I think that we should all at least take a look at Ken Holland's post-Bowman resume'.

Significant Draft Picks (that have played in at least one NHL game...the 2008 draft was in June):
-2009: Tomas Tatar (9 career games, 1 goal, 1 point)
-2010: Riley Sheahan (1 career game, 4 penalty minutes)
-2011:
-2012:

...10 games, 1 point and 4 penalty minutes out of our last three drafts (and 0 playoff games).  That's not good.  I know it takes time to develop young players in general.  I know that we draft especially young players.  I know that we like to take an especially long time to develop them.  And I know that we've got some other potentially promising prospects in the system that we've drafted since then - Cale Jarnrkrok(2010), Teemu Pulkkinen(2010), Petr Mrazek(2010) and Tomas Jurco(2011).  But still, it's not good.  There are other NHL teams that have drafted significant contributors late since 2009.  And how much are we really expecting of the aforementioned prospects anyways?  I won't hold this against Ken Holland for the reasons stated above, but his post-Bowman drafting has certainly not yet shown itself to be a positive.  That much is fair.

Significant Free Agent Signings:
-2008/2009: M. Hossa, T. Conklin
-2009/2010: T. Bertuzzi, D. Miller, P. Eaves, J. Williams.
-2010/2011: R. Salei, M. Modano
-2011/2012: I. White
-2012/2013: D. Brunner, M. Samuelsson, J. Tootoo, J. Gustavsson

...Man, underwhelming, isn't it?  The Hossa signing was a great one for sure.  But it was him and his agent that sought us out, not the other way around.  The Ian White signing I thought was great, but not an enormous impact-signing.  The Bertuzzi signing was okay I guess.  Salei was a solid signing, for the price, as a sixth D.  Miller is a solid depth guy.  Eaves would be, albeit an overpaid one, if he was healthy.  Conklin was okay as a backup.  Williams and Modano didn't pan out.  The one's this off-season we'll have to wait and see on.  But man, honestly, in the last five seasons White is really the only significant addition that we've made to the team through FA.  Certainly a negative for Holland here thus far.
  
Significant Trades:
-2008/2009:
-2009/2010:
-2010/2011: V. Leino for O. Tollefsen
-2011/2012: 1st round pick for K. Quincey
-2012/2013:

...The Leino trade was obviously a horrific one.  IMO, the Quincey one was a waste of a pick as well (he's not very..good).  Certainly another negative for Holland here thus far.

Results:
-2008/2009: Stanley Cup Finals Losers.
-2009/2010: Second round exit.
-2010/2011: Second round exit.
-2011/2012: First round exit.
-2012/2013:

...Seems we're just getting worse and worse, losing more and adding less, with each passing season since Bowman left.  Cooincidence?  I think not.





*****





Here's a new way to evaluate Holland's performance here since Bowman left: How has he replaced what we've lost from the 2008 Stanley Cup Championship team he inherited? It might not be an all-inclusive method of evaluation, but it's certainly an angle that's at least worth looking at.

*Keep in mind that we're talking about the player we had IN 2008...and then what we have now.

Forwards:

J. Hudler----------D. Brunner. I'll have to see it to believe it, but from what we've been told, Brunner now shouldn't be much of a drop-off from Hudler of 08.
T. Holmstrom----------G. Nyquist. Very, very different players, but I really, really like Nyquist, so I'll dare to again say "not much of a drop-off."
K. Draper----------J. Abdelkader. Abby might never be what Draper was, but isn't much worse now than Draper was in 08...aside from faceoffs. Not much of a drop-off.
D. Drake----------T. Bertuzzi. Again, very different players. Drake did some things Bert doesn't. Bert does some things Drake didn't. Not much of a drop-off.
D. McCarty----------J. Tootoo. Tootoo's not the intimidator McCarty was, even in 08. McCarty wasn't the skater that Tootoo is. Not much of a drop-off.
K. Maltby----------D. Miller. See the Draper/Abdelkader comparision. Not much of a drop-off.
M. Hartigan----------P. Eaves. Probably the one instance amongst the forwards of actual improvement. Too bad it's the 14th forward.

Defensemen:

N. Lidstrom----------J. Ericsson. I won't even dignify this by attempting to compare.
B. Rafalski----------I. White. Not even close.
B. Stuart----------K. Quincey. Not really close.
A. Lilja----------B. Smith. Perhaps an improvement?
B. Lebda----------J. Kindl. How in the world do you not improve over Lebda in 4 seasons?
C. Chelios----------???

Goalies:

C. Osgood----------J. Howard. Not quite there yet. But not that far off either.
D. Hasek----------J. Gustavsson. Backup goalies don't matter enough to get into this one.

In general:

1) The forward group remains more or less the same, though older. I'd say that age has had more of a negative impact than development has had a positive impact.
2) The defensive group has been completely wiped out and not even close to replaced in most cases.
3) The goalies are more or less the same.

So, there you have it. That's what Ken Holland's done. Hasn't improved anything since he's been here. Has let us get A LOT worse on the back end. That's it. All there is to it. Bottom line. Period.

Is this still a team that could win it all?

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Alexander Semin ($5.000m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Damien Brunner ($1.350m)
Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) / Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)
Justin Abdelkader ($0.866m) / Drew Miller ($0.838m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ian White ($2.875m)
Matt Carle ($5.000m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Kyle Quincey ($3.250m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,199,962; BONUSES: $462,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $5,000,038

I'm leaning towards the high-end on all of these signings.  Parise - 8mil.  Suter - 8 mil.  Schultz - 3.8 mil (if that report is correct, that's the max).  Brunner - 2 mil (no idea, but I think his contract is restricted too, and that's probably more than the max).  Abdelkader - 1.5 mil (more than he deserves).

And there's STILL left-over cap space.

This might actually happen.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($8.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Damien Brunner ($2.000m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.500m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m)
Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ryan Suter ($8.000m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) / Ian White ($2.875m)
Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Justin Schultz ($3.800m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Joey MacDonald ($0.550m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $68,917,045; BONUSES: $37,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,382,955

I love you guys lol.  I was actually in the middle of putting together a cap geek spread, but my ride pulled in.


...almost 4 mil left in cap space with this glorious roster too

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($7.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Damien Brunner ($1.000m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.000m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m)
Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ryan Suter ($7.000m)
Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Ian White ($2.875m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) / Justin Schultz ($5.000m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Joey MacDonald ($0.550m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,617,045; BONUSES: $37,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $3,682,955

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($7.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Shane Doan ($5.000m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m)
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Darren Helm ($1.000m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.866m) / Random Power Forward? ($2.500m)
Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) / Drew Miller ($0.838m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($7.000m) / Ian White ($2.875m)
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Brendan Smith ($0.875m)
Kyle Quincey ($3.250m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Tomas Vokoun ($1.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $70,024,962; BONUSES: $37,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $275,038

sooo sorry

i didn't realize that 10% of our cap space suddenly becoming available was unworthy of an off-season discussion.  very sorry for pointing a gun to your heads and making you read it!!