If I were those guys I'd want want short term deals if this is how they're treated.
Yes, Helm and Abby have not been treated well by the Wings organization, that is something you often hear about this franchise.
You post too much by the way, no need to be so controlling.
You mean controlling . . like trying to dictate what is the appropriate amount of posting.
That's the problem isn't it? you had to speak about his past. He's not that player anymore, far from it. Helm would score much better this season with Hudler on his line and some stability. He can do everything we need from the 3rd line center, everything. Modano fits fine but we don't need him. We have to many forwards as it is. We probably lose Ritola for nothing and maybe more. Why to fill a spot that that's already occupied by a great young player? This isn't pre lockout, where you can sign a vet to play every position.
This is short sided thinking, it's a bad practice. I hope the guy just retires.
Um, I think you mean shortsighted and also I don't think the phrase "still very good" is speaking about the past it is speaking of the present.
His own team want's to move on, that's exactly what the Wings should do.
His own team is not in the same situation as the Wings. The Wings should make the playoffs with a ripe and well developed team that has a legitimate shot at winning the Stanley Cup and only need to tweak their team. Dallas on the other hand did not make the playoff and is rebuilding their team for future success. It is not the same to compare what Dallas needs and what Detroit needs.
I wonder how they're differentiating this from the other contracts like it.
Because it is different. As I stated in the Kovy contract thread as a tax attorney there is a phrase when dealing with the IRS "Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered." When Z and Mule had their deals the drop off in $ wasn't as steep or long on the tail end, they were only signed until the age of 40 (and the league acknowledged at that time that the Wings had a history of getting good mileage out of their players and had several examples of Wing's players playing until they were 40), the length of the contract wasn't as long, and the overall cap hit was a slight reduction from their prime years pay (Z max year amount $7.75M, cap hit $6.083M = $1.667M difference, Mule max year amount $5.5M, cap hit $3.955M = $1.545M difference, whereas Kovy max year amount $11.5M, cap hit $6M = $5.5M difference). There is a great difference between the two, Z and Mule were pigs, then you move on to Hossa and Pronger, little bit longer and/or little bit older and/or little bit more disparity on pay/cap hit therefore they (unlike Z and Mule) get their contracts scrutinized however, they are still just considered pigs. Then comes Kovy, longer term, older age at the end of the contract, greater disparity in pay/cap hit at his prime so finally the bounds are pushed too far and he is considered a hog and thus gets slaughtered.
This happens in tax law all the time. If you are a minority owner of a business (own less than 50% of the business) and sell your business interest you can take a discount on the valuation of the business for minority interest/lack of marketability/lack of control. The IRS has never set a percentage for discount but if you discount it 25-35% you will almost never get challenged, 35-45% you might get challenged, and 50%+ you stand a great likelihood of getting challenged. Some clients don't care and want to throw the dice and discount the value by 60% they are likely to get caught but will take the risk, they are hogs and likely to get slaughtered. That is what happened here, the actions/tactic wasn't different but the degree was and that is why they rejected the contract.
Zetterberg and Franzen's contracts take them up to age 40 (look at Lidstrom, Yzerman, Chelios, Hasek, etc...)
The Wings have a history of utilizing older players later in their careers than most teams, so these deals are not at ALL out of the realm of possibility of being completed...
Hossa's deal is sketchy, as it takes him to 42/43 and he has had a few injuries with the way he plays - much less likely to get completed, but also only a 12 year deal... not 17
Pronger's deal - after 35, so if they want to sign him to 100 years, let them - it's on the cap regardless and it's their own choice if they want to eat future cap after he retires...
This deal there wasn't even a grey area, it was flat out designed to circumvent the cap and there is NO way he will complete this contract, or at bare minimum (if you REALLY want to stretch) complete this contract at the value it is for.
Not really the same at all in my mind for a couple of reasons. For one, the majority of the Red Wings team wasn't being dismantled before their fans eyes, it is the culmination of everyone that they lost that would make it harder on the fans. Also, as Vernon himself said "I was brought in here for a couple of things. . . [t]o win a Stanley Cup and to help Chris Osgood develop into a front-line NHL goalie."That is not the Hawks situation at all. The Wings were extremely high on the talent of their young goalie, Osgood played 47 games compared to Vernon's 33, had a better GAA, better SV%, and 6 shutouts compared to none for Vernon. Vernon was grooming Osgood for the future and they felt Osgood was ready to be that future. The Hawks have a $5M+ goalie who got benched for not playing well and not much else, the only goalie in their system even mentioned is Crawford who has a grand total of 8 regular season NHL games under his belt (2 in 05-06, 5 in 07-08, and 1 in 09-10) which has amounted to 1 total NHL win. Trading Vernon when you think you have something better in Ozzy (especially when part of what you brought Vernon in to do is train Ozzy) is not the same as not signing Niemi when your options are using Huet who Niemi beat out and cost you $5M plus or bringing in your AHL goalie with no real NHL experience, especially with all the Hawks have already lost.
Modano had ONE Stanley Cup ring TWELVE years ago this year!
I wouldn't exactly call that winning over and over again like some of the Wings players or Colorado players or New Jersey players. LOL
Modano never consistently had the caliber of teams that any of the three you mentioned had.
And the Williams signing last year was also a brilliant move I suppose. Obviously, not all the moves Holland makes turn out for the best. I repeat.... this an "emotional sentimental" signing not a logical one to win a championship. I also am inclined to believe that because Wings preseason ticket sales is probably way down they see the signing of Modano as a boost for ticket sales.
There may be emotionally based bias approving of signing Modano by some on the forums here but Kenny and Co. who are the ones actually pursuing the dealare not going after Modano for "emotional sentimental" reasons. They are some of the best in the business and to suggest that somehow the fact that a few fans would like Modano here based upon sentimentality is no way relevant to the sound and logical reasoning that Kenny, Babs, Ilich, and the rest of the Wings brass want to bring him here.
If Dallas felt Modano could get them back into the playoffs they would have kept him. Obviously they thought differently. I wonder how many Modano relatives and friends are on this forum???? They wouldn't make any intelligent posts.... they just attack.
If he is STILL so good why has Dallas sunk the last two years and why have they let him go????
Now you are just being silly. The Dallas Stars and the Detroit Red Wings are NOT the same team. Dallas is a young team who is trying to build up their infrastructure to become a relevant contender again, Detroit is already a relevant contender who just need tweaks to improve on an already elite product. I guess by your rationale Niklas Backstrom is not good because the Wild had a worse record than Dallas and "if [Backstrom] is STILL so good why has [Minnesota]" been so bad? (The same could be said for Kessel, Tavares, Lecavalier, St. Louis, Malone, Stamkos, Eric Staal, Horcoff, Penner, Souray, Nash, and several others who are on teams that did worse than the Stars). One player can't make a team championship caliber.
Yeh ....in 2008-2009 Modano had some real good wheels and a great shot..... that great shot got him a fantastic 15 goals and those great wheels made him a fantastic two-way player..... he was MINUS 13 !!!!! Give me a break!!! Any player on the Wings who is minus 13 does not get any kudos from the fans... that is for damn sure.
Way to cherry pick. You go back two years rather than using last year's stats you go back to the year before because they help your arguement. His latest stats he was a -6 on a team full of minus players. You can't compare his +/- to another teams. Look at Dallas over all and they are a minus team, they had two guys total that were above a +3 the Wings had seven. The Wings were a +13 in goal differential and the Stars were a -17, it makes a huge difference to play on a team that scores 13 more goals than its opponents rather than one that gives up 17 more goals than its opponents. I guess Brad Stuart gets no "kudos from the fans" since he was a -12 last year. Oh yeah and those 15 goals still helped Modano be a .58 ppg player that year.
I have mixed feelings about possibly signing Modano. We get bigger and more talented, but we get slower and older as well. As far as lines go, as much as I'd like to see Abs and Ritola get a chance, the possibility of being able to ice Eaves-Helm-Miller as our fourth line sounds pretty kick ass to me. Also, the prospect of having four players over 200lbs and over 6' (Modano, Holmstrom, Franzen, Bertuzzi) on the first two lines, each centered by Datsyuk or Zettergerg, could be overwhelming to opponents' defense.
For his age Modano still has a pretty good set of wheels. I don't think he will hurt us at all in that regard.
Tell me the D pairings the Lightning have had over the past few seasons that are even close to as good as Keith/Seabrook and Hjalmarsson/Campbell. I would absolutely love to hear that.
I agree with you there but it is still not certain that Hjalmarsson will be a Hawk next season. He only made $600k last year and is due for a big (top four D man) raise. Combine that with the high price teams have been willing to pay for D men so far this free agency and the fact all teams know the Hawks are against the cap wall and he may get an offer the Hawks can't match or that at the least will force them to pay much more for him than they want. Hjalmarsson hasn't had a big payday yet, already has a cup and will likely want to max out and get as much as possible for his next contract.
I'm a troll? How? I've been pretty respectful, and most have been the same way in return. You just seem bitter. Why is that?
You have absolutely not been a troll. You have been well informed, articulate, and nothing in your posts indicates that you came here merely to trash the Wings and start fights. I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the other poster and hope that he was referring to some previous Hawks fan's postings. You however, have done nothing but improve the debate and discussion here.
Again, not sure why you think I'm all bummed out about any of this. I'm not asking for anything other than a competetive team and a playoff appearance next season, and we'll get that.
Oh well.. I guess I'll leave, since saying anything positive about a team other than Detroit is apparently "trolling". I understand this is a Red Wings board and some won't take lightly to saying that the Blackhawks are anything other than horrible, but I figured if I was reasonable about it I'd get a fair shake.
Oh well. Good luck next season. I look forward to the Chicago Blackhawks doing their best to defend their Stanley Cup Championship. If it doesn't work out, oh well. I'll congratulate the Red Wings if they win the division, and I'll actually welcome Detroit fans on my board.
Your team should still be very competitive next year, they have too many good players not to be. The depth that they are losing will likely hinder them from being elite but they should still be very competitive, and with all the prospects/picks they are getting in return they should be able to retool quicker than most teams.
Finally, you are welcomed on this board and I for one hope you continue to post here.
Its been since the 80's that the Bears won a superbowl so sure you have a decent team but not exactly championship upon championship.
The pistons are one of the most successful teams in basketball this past decade.
The tigers have been successful, went to the world series in 2006 if I'm correct. How have those cubs been?
Chicago's only somewhat consistent team is the Bears and even they havent won a championship in how long? We have the best hockey dynasty the last 20 years and one of the best in basketball the past decade. Our only bad team is the lions.
Plus hockey trumps all other sports by such a large margin that they don't really matter.
Well, for all of what amounts to a lot of wishful thinking by Wings fans, that the Hawks get ripped apart and become one season wonders, anybody care to put their money where their mouth is? Anybody care to make a prediction for the Hawks for next season and the season next?
Here's mine: Hawks will compete for Central title both years. Hawks will make playoffs both years. Hawks will reach Conference Finals at least one more time in the next two seasons.
Anybody else care to put a prediction out there for the record?
I'm not sure if I can count newfy's statement "The hawks are absolutely f***ed next season" as I don't know what that means? Does that mean they won't make the playoffs?
I don't think the perception is that the Hawks will win 10 games next year or anything like that (at least that is not my perception). They will still be a good team, it is just that they will lose a lot of their depth and a few core players that will take them from being the hands down favorite to win the Cup (as they were this year before the season even started) to being a good team that if they get on a roll might have a chance at winning it all. They will still do well probably compete for the Central Division but won't run away with anything and may struggle quite a bit at times. It is similar (although I think a fair bit worse) than the problem that Detroit had this year. They will lose guys who will expose holes in the team (for example the importance that Sammy had here) and their margin of error related to injuries or slumps will be greatly diminished. It is not that they will be competing in the draft lottery next year rather than competing in the playoffs but rather that they have been pulled back into the well above average pack of teams and will have to fight much harder next year for any success that they achieve.