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Member Since 14 Feb 2009
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#2623856 Franzen back on ice

Posted by Buppy on 25 August 2015 - 11:10 AM


Both are in the realm of possibility. My bad for having an "uncool" opinion of Franzen. I'm not baiting, I'm 100% serious. Thought you'd know my stance on Franzen by now.



I don't get why he "Should've hung him up"


You know nothing about this concussion, past concussions, or prior medical history. All we know is he's been cleared by his doctors to play and that's good enough for me. I would never wish for someone to be forced into retirement. Like I said Franzen gets this treatment, but for some reason not Zberg, even though chronic back issues can be just as bad.

Technically he's not cleared to play yet. Probably will get clearance from the sound of things, but we'll see.


No doubt that much of the "hang-'em-up" talk comes from people who just want him gone, but also some seem to have an overblown sense of the risks. Like they think he's one good hit away from being a vegetable. 

#2623631 What's your roster lines ?

Posted by Buppy on 20 August 2015 - 04:49 PM

My bold ass prediction for the year: Franzen will score more goals this season than Ferraro and Callahan combined will score in their entire NHL careers.















#2621675 Holtby Asking for $8M

Posted by Buppy on 28 July 2015 - 01:15 AM


Only girls use wifi... back when hockey didn't suck we used hi-fi

Real hockey was played on icebergs by Vikings with axe blades strapped to their feet who just skated around trying to kill each other with the axe handles. Real radio was a wandering minstrel who sang stirring anthems and ribald ballads for a leg of roast mutton.

#2621598 Holtby Asking for $8M

Posted by Buppy on 25 July 2015 - 10:58 PM

Silly debate. Stats are information. A tool. Scouts would use them as much or more than anyone. They've been around for decades. Over the years, more have been added/tracked. Even analytics aren't entirely new. Just a natural progression. More information is always better, provided you can understand the information. The advanced metrics still need a lot of work before we really understand them enough to make good use of them, but once teams start understanding them they will be a valuable resource, and that's why teams are hiring "stat guys". Stats aren't a replacement for scouting, they are a part of it. 

#2621389 Remaing RFAs to be signed - Jurco, Pulkkinen, Aubry

Posted by Buppy on 24 July 2015 - 02:11 AM

Def not a waste of roster spot based on the salary and his potential for scoring. We're merely discussing (in other thread moreso) whether or not he will be able to bloom in the NHL level. Additionally I have bias towards 2-way players in the current NHL and have held a point that he should try and get better at his defensive game so he isn't a liability if he wants to push for top 6 eventually. That's just my personal opinion though.


Others here are arguing that he won't be able to take the slap shots like he does in the AHL because he can't create space or is weak on the puck against NHL D-man (as witnessed in the first 34 NHL games he played).


Unfortunately a lot of Pulk fan boys are taking these statements as some sort of anti-Pulk movement. It's as though it's blasphemous to NOT be a Pulk fan boy. Somehow it's that black and white. Apparently it's a sin to be skeptical and/or analytical.  


But the reality is that the whole 1 dimensional excuse more often than not doesnt work in todays NHL. That's all I'm arguing. I'm arguing against the excuses being made for him.


People should face the reality that Pulk has weaknesses instead of making excuses. I'm sure Pulk himself knows the issues and I guarantee you he plans on working on them. .... 

 The two sides of this debate probably aren't as far apart as the arguing might look. It's just easier to argue against an exaggerated version of the opposing opinion. Like you're doing here. Histrionics are fun.


I don't think anyone is making excuses, just disagreeing with your assessment of him and/or what is required to be a successful player.Even those saying 'who cares if he's one dimensional" I'm sure only mean that it'd be fine if all he's ever good at is scoring goals. Not that lacking a complete two-way game is not a weakness nor that he shouldn't work to be as good as he can in other areas. There are plenty of effective players in the NHL who aren't that good defensively. The Wings are fortunate in that almost all of our forwards are pretty solid (or better) defensively, but that just means that we can afford a few who are less so. Would he be a star, team-leader, next-Datsyuk? Not very likely, but he could be a valuable and effective secondary scorer.


And some of us disagree with how one-dimensional he is anyway. He'd probably be a liability against top competition right now, but given a bit of time I don't think so. No more so that Tatar or Nyquist are now at any rate. And his offensive game is much more well-rounded than those saying he is just a slapshot contend. In the AHL he is a dynamic offensive producer. He creates his own opportunuties, not wholly unlike Tatar, Nyquist, Zetterberg, etc. He's not just a product of defensive ineptitude, weak goaltending, and teammates feeding him one-timers. If that was true, every decent player would light up the AHL. Can he figure out how to do it in the NHL? Let's see. Let's see, before we conclude that he can't.


And for all this talk that he can't create space or get open or get his shot off...and it's true he does need to improve in that respect, and should as he gets used to the competition level...but even now he shoots at a higher rate than anyone on our team, higher than most of the league in fact. 

#2621373 Jim Devellano on Mantha's play: "Very disappointing"

Posted by Buppy on 23 July 2015 - 05:46 PM

I think even expecting him to hold down a top spot in the AHL is a pretty lofty expectation.  Going from the Q and being "a man amongst boys" to the AHL where he's "a boy amongst men" is a big change.  Serious huge step up from the Q to the AHL.

Hilarious. He absolutely should have been expected to be a top line player in GR. Even considering the injury he should have at least reached that level by the end of the year.


The people critical of him now are not for the most part the same people who had such unreasonable expectations. Those people are mostly the people defending him. Like LW. Last summer Mantha was better than Franzen and should be on the top line in Detroit, now it was too much to expect top line in GR. BS.


20th overall pick, 20-yo, great size, excellent skating, exceptional offensive skills, goal-per-game in the Q...we absolutely had a right to expect something better than 60th overall pick, undersized, 18-yo, first year in NA, Tomas-Tatar-level production.


He was disappointing. Not just relative to the more ridiculous expectations, but even to the reasonable ones. I didn't even expect him to be dominant in the AHL. But top-liner? 25-ish goals? 50-ish points? Maybe some consideration for AHL ROTY? Without a doubt. The injury was a setback, but he should have been coming around late in the year at least. Instead he got even worse.


He was disappointing. He knows, the coaches know it, management knows it, fans know it. Some just want to deny it because they think saying anything critical about a player they like is the end of the world or something. It isn't. He was disappointing. And that's OK. Doesn't make him a bust. Doesn't even mean he won't eventually be as good as thought prior to last season. It's just one season. 

#2621248 Pulkkinen re-signs.... 1 year deal

Posted by Buppy on 22 July 2015 - 08:32 PM

I'm rooting for him obviously, but I just don't see it translating for Pulkkinen. I personally thought the Wings should have sold high on him while he was tearing up the AHL. I think he's very one dimensional and that one dimension can be taken away by bigger, stronger and faster competition in the NHL. 

I don't think tearing up the AHL carries the kind of trade clout that the people who want to trade him seem to think.


Every negative and every question mark you see in his game, NHL GMs also see. He really isn't any more one-dimensional than Nyquist or Tatar, or dozens of other NHL players, but regardless he is an undersized skill winger, not a great skater, not great defensively, not very physical, excellent offensive upside but not guaranteed, won't stick in the NHL if he can't be at least a decent scorer, and he needs to be on an NHL roster next year, regardless of whether he's capable or not (since pretty much any team would take a chance on him if they could get him for free off waivers). 


None of that spells high trade value. Modest value. Considerably below Mantha, even given his lackluster year. We're not going to get a Buffy-level player for him, despite what some people think. (And before anyone says "package", which is just LGW slang for "s*** we don't want anyway"; if Pulkkinen is the biggest piece we still wouldn't get anything all that great.)


Sure, if he completely sucks he could lose what value he does have, but if he's even modestly successful (like 12-15g) his value will go up.


Yup, I hate a player that wears the uniform of my favorite team. That was clearly what I was getting at in my post. God forbid anyone has a dissenting opinion about a player on a discussion board.

He is one of the haters. He was welcoming you, not mocking.

#2621217 Remaing RFAs to be signed - Jurco, Pulkkinen, Aubry

Posted by Buppy on 22 July 2015 - 03:02 PM

Stats don't tell the whole story. Tatar and Nyquist can drive the play. Pulkkinen doesn't.

Typical vague nonsense that people like to resort to when the stats are against them. How am I supposed to debate that? Yes he does? As riveting as a good "can to/can not" exchange would be, I think I'll pass. I suspect "drive the play" just means whatever you think you can describe that Pulkkinen doesn't do well, but Nyquist and Tatar do.


The thing with un-quantifiable metrics is that they don't mean anything until they're translated to something you can quantify. Tatar and Nyquist can drive the s*** out of a play like no one ever has, does, or ever will again, and if it doesn't result in anything measurable than it's worthless. But even that didn't happen. We weren't all sitting around watching Nyquist score 3g and 6p in 22 games, saying, "Damn, did you see him drive that play? That was some play driving right there! That play got it's ass drove off!".


They didn't step into the NHL and play like 30g scorers from day one, but get really unlucky with the puck just not going in. They played, looked good at times, poor at times, but mostly unnoticeable except in that people who were excited to see them payed them special attention. Not at all unlike Pulkkinen. Then with more time and experience they improved. Made better decisions, quicker decisions, adjusted to the competition...the way most young players do. 


Will Pulkkinen be able to adjust and improve? That's always the question. Could ask the same of any our prospects. But is it possible he could? Absolutely.

#2621201 Remaing RFAs to be signed - Jurco, Pulkkinen, Aubry

Posted by Buppy on 22 July 2015 - 11:38 AM

Nyquist and Tatar both showed a lot more than Pulkkinen did in the NHL. Both are far superior skaters and worked to get open more than Pulkkinen did.
In the AHL. In the NHL he was slow and didn't look like he had any clue about how to find open ice. The AHL players are slower and give guys more room, and the goalies leave more of the net open. Lots of guys score a ton in the minors but can't hack it in the NHL.

You can make that "in the AHL" argument about the vast majority of players. Doesn't really mean a whole lot.


I don't share your opinion on how he looked, or that Tatar or Nyquist looked any better. But regardless of eye test opinions, neither was any more effective. Maybe they did get open more, I don't know, and neither do you. The NHL doesn't track getting open as a stat. But if they did, it didn't translate to getting shots on net or scoring any significant amount more.


But both have improved significantly since then. It remains to be seen if Pulkkinen will follow suit. But I see no reason to think he can't or isn't likely to. Sure, they have speed that he lacks, but he has a shot that they lack. He'll probably have to play a little differently in the NHL, but not so dramatically different that it should be a problem.

#2621150 Remaing RFAs to be signed - Jurco, Pulkkinen, Aubry

Posted by Buppy on 22 July 2015 - 01:52 AM

It's not turning on him, it's looking at a player without rose colored glasses. He doesn't have good speed, couldn't get open, and looked completely one dimensional.

And neither Nyquist nor Tatar looked very good, nor produced more, in their initial call-up seasons. Neither were as good in the AHL. Yet neither had the same kind of doubt that people seem to have for Pulk.


I think speed is a part of it. Speed is a very noticeable trait, and tends to make players look better than they really are. But there are a lot of good players in the NHL who don't have great speed.


I also think his slapshot works against him, oddly enough. Like it's so good and so effective in the AHL, people don't see anything else. But there is a lot more to his game. He plays well with and without the puck, he's persistent, drives the net, excellent wrister, half-slap, anticipates well, skates hard (even though not blazingly fast), decent stickhandling. He even backchecks and forechecks hard.


Will it all translate to success in the NHL? You hardly ever know with any prospect. But I can't remember any prospect who's been this good at this stage with this much negativity.

#2621149 Pulkkinen re-signs.... 1 year deal

Posted by Buppy on 22 July 2015 - 12:48 AM


Because you implied that Nyquist benefited from playing with Zberg, while Pulks toiled on the 4th line. And no, not 12:08 maybe, 11:68 is his average TOI/PG for his first 40 games.

I believe what he was saying is that 11:68 is 12:08, as there are only 60 seconds in a minute.

#2621147 Lovable Dan Cleary update thread

Posted by Buppy on 22 July 2015 - 12:40 AM

Gretz gets it:

When talking about the transition in coaching...


"On one hand, it's difficult to argue with the Red Wings' success when it comes to player development, especially recently where the farm system has produced some really promising players, from Nyquist to Tatar to Riley Sheahan to Teemu Pulkkinen. But the Red Wings have also sometimes been extremely slow at promoting these players and giving them an opportunity in the NHL. The best example: keeping Dan Cleary on the 2013-14 roster at the start of the season and burying Nyquist in the AHL even though he had shown that he was already too good for that level and ready for the next step. Since Nyquist was recalled he has been one of the Red Wings' most productive players.

It's one thing when it's 2007-08 and the team has the most stacked roster in the league and jobs are hard to come by. It's quite another when the 2014 version of Dan Cleary is getting a preferred spot on the roster while younger players are banging on the door deserving of an opportunity. In a salary cap sport, and especially on a team that is as close to the cap as the Red Wings are with so many big-money players, you just cannot waste prime years of a top prospect like that. If there was a reason to be critical of Babcock's time in Detroit, especially in recent years, this might have been it."

None of us will probably ever know how much it was Babs or Kenny, but we all know it hurt.  



Good example of post-hoc analysis, and largely inaccurate.


Nyquist being buried had more to do with signing Weiss and Alfie than Cleary. Plus being unable to dump Sammy. But regardless, we didn't "waste prime years". We wasted 22 games of a player who had 4 goals and 13 points in 40 games (plus 2-5 in 18 playoff games) at that point.


And it's debatable if it hurt or not. Doesn't look like Nyquist has suffered at all for it. At the time he was called up, we were 9-6-7 (though we started off 9-4-2 before hitting a stretch where we couldn't finish anyone), pretty much identical point% we finished the season with. Sure, maybe we'd have earned a few more points in those games, then not had to play Boston, and made it to the 2nd round or farther... Or maybe that little extra time in GR was the motivation he needed to do so well that year. 

#2621132 Pulkkinen re-signs.... 1 year deal

Posted by Buppy on 21 July 2015 - 09:25 PM

...I think here's been some misinformation here for the past couple of years (I repeated it myself) Jensen isn't out of options next year - he has 2 years, doesn't he?


No, this is his last year of exemption. His first contract was for the 13-14 season. He was 23 or 22, depending on which date it's based off, but it doesn't matter since either way he got 3 years of exemption. This will be his third and final year.


I think people fail to see the point here.


The one year deal is in the organizations favor.


Pulkinnen hasn't had a full NHL season yet. Chances of him playing superstar status and putting up a ton of points are low.


He might put up okay numbers. But most likely he won't see the minutes nor put up the numbers that Nyquist did on the top line with Zetterberg or Tatar with Datsyuk.


Ergo when his contract is up next year; the organization can basically get him back for a decent deal if they want. 


If he ends up sucking like a lot of posters here predict; we don't need to pay some crazy amount


This is his year to prove it. 


I think he will do decent but not good enough to warrant a crazy new contract. He's simply not NHL developed quite yet. 


If it was a two year contract I could see him doing much better in the second season of his contract and then asking for a hefty pay. But with a 1 year contract, it doesn't necessarily favor him. 

Could go either way. He could have a Jurco-ish season, and not have any leverage to ask for much of a raise, and probably push for another one-year "show me" deal, or he could have a 20g/40p year like Tatar in his first, and ask for $2.5-3M. 


Considering we're likely to be in cap trouble next year regardless, I would have rather seen a 2-year deal even at a little higher hit. Best case scenario we get an extra cheap year out of him if he doesn't do well this year, but that's not worth the risk of the extra trouble next summer. Plus I don't really like the idea of "best case" meaning a player doesn't do well.

#2620561 Remaing RFAs to be signed - Jurco, Pulkkinen, Aubry

Posted by Buppy on 14 July 2015 - 11:26 PM

For the record, I didn't turn on him...I have disliked him for a looooooooong time. And you all will see, give him the roster spot he will come in score 5 goals in 2 weeks, then take the rest of the year off on LTIR.  Oh, and you will less some good prospects FOR FREE...

he may even come in a score 10 goals in 6 games...but that will be it! Head case....

Yes, you have had an irrational dislike for Franzen for some time. At least you're consistent.

But we will not lose "some good prospects". Franzen is one person, taking one roster spot. We will lose, at most, one prospect. Not anyone I would call good either, but whatever.

#2620516 Remaing RFAs to be signed - Jurco, Pulkkinen, Aubry

Posted by Buppy on 14 July 2015 - 03:00 PM

Franzen is a waist of a money and a roster spot. If he is in the lineup on opening day, we will be less some good prospects...and we would have wasted our time with our draft picks.  To lose any one of these players to keep Franzen here for the next five years will be a waste. What are you going to do when Frk, AA, Mantha, and Larkin are due up, do you still keep Franzen? Franzen needs to go now or lose the likes of AA and Frk for sure. You need to get off this Franzen love, he is done, over, not worth keeping, especially when it comes to losing valuable prospects. He was the wrong choice and he continues to show that he is horrible.  Sure, he had the concussion last January, but how do you expain the previous 5 years of floating around and s***ting on the ice? You cannot explain it any other way than he is done, over, washed up. Time to cut ties with him now, either LTIR or trade him.  No way is losing ANYONE to cap issues worth keeping Franzen for.  If Holland does this, then this franchise is doomed... f*** Franzen



Anyhow, if the WIngs plan on moving forward and not losing young players for nothing or being forced to trade them, there has to be casualties at the NHL level. Q, E, K and Franzen, and maybe Smith are ALL great candidates to move in order to secure the kids arrival the next few seasons...

Frk is garbage and can't even stick with GR. I'll bet he never plays an NHL game. We won't lose him because of Franzen, he'll lose us because of his lack of ability.