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Member Since 14 Feb 2009
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#2521831 Mantha named CHL player of the year

Posted by Buppy on 26 May 2014 - 10:50 PM

When I see "untouchable" next to the name of any prospect, I have to roll my eyes. I'm sorry, but just take a look at draft history from even the last 5-10 years. Check the first 5 names or so, and you'll see some serious to moderate (Schenn brothers) success... then it gets spotty.

For my money, untouchable is the 20-25 year old player who can eat up 25 minutes on the back-end and look comfortable, or the kid scoring 30 goals at that age, or playing 50 games between the pipes and putting up respectable numbers. Potential is potential. "Being the best thing to happen Detroit since" is a relative statement, because there's much better than Mantha out there. Kid's value is at a high right now - If you can package him for someone with a proven track record in their early to mid 20's... why in the world wouldn't you do it?

That's like saying, "If you can trade 3500 lbs of metal and plastic for a new car...".


You can't. You can't even if you "package" it with 5 tons of crap either. You want a proven young player you're going to have to add a lot. Look at the Ryan trade. He's not even a great goal scorer and was already 26. Went for a Mantha-level prospect, plus another good prospect, plus a 1st. 


Aside from maybe a few overzealous fans here, no one is anointing him the second coming. And I think you and Dickie are over-valuing his trade value just as much as they are over-valuing his potential. His value may be higher than it's been in the past, but I'd say it's unlikely as high as it will get. Even moderate success in GR (or with the Wings) would move him up. 


Obviously, no one is literally untouchable. I assume when anyone says that it just means they don't believe said player would bring a worthy return. For me, Mantha, Sheahan, Sproul, Mrazek, and Pulkkinen are untouchable right now. Their skillsets are mostly unique in our prospect pool (Pulks is a little redundant). You'd have to really blow me away with an offer to get any of them.

#2520561 A cap/salary question for you all.

Posted by Buppy on 15 May 2014 - 12:01 AM

Wow. In a few weeks Mantha has gone from, "maybe he'll have a chance to make the team next year", to the next Ovechkin. At this rate he'll be in the Hall of Fame by June.

#2519253 Wings will buy out Tootoo, not Franzen.

Posted by Buppy on 05 May 2014 - 11:12 AM



Buppy - The offer for Hudler was there, Holland offered the then RFA somewhere around $3M-ish, and Hudler declined and opted for Russia, then the arbitrator ruled that Hudler would get $2.9M-ish IIRC. Look it up and get the facts instead of just attacking somebody. Just Google it.  "Holland offers RFA Hudler contract"  its right there. My cut and paste isn't working or I would paste the link and the quote, but Holland offered Hudler a 5 year $15M contract...so, no I am not just making things up.  If Holland had said see ya to Hudler, then he could have possibly added that $3M to a better offer for Hossa...



Like I said, even if the offer was real the cap space wasn't there. He could have offered Hudler $300M. No matter what, keeping Hossa would have meant losing someone else on the team (and Hudler wasn't, the first year). 


Fact is, Hossa has produced 28g and 72p over Franzen in 5 years. 5-6g, 14-15p per year for an extra $1.3M in cap and two extra years of length. Franzen is far, far closer to Hossa than you or many others would like to believe. 

#2518099 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by Buppy on 28 April 2014 - 10:33 PM

The futility of the argument aside, it's a false dilema. Trying to win now and trying to build a contender are not mutually exclusive.

#2517961 What is more important?

Posted by Buppy on 28 April 2014 - 11:08 AM

No one is debating that great teams are great at scoring and at defense. We are not a great team, nor are we great at O or at D. The question is, which do we fix first, and at what price?

Actually the question was, "What is more important". My answer to that being, "Neither".


As to your follow-up, the obvious answer is we try to fix both. But opportunities are limited, so you take what you can get. You try to avoid weakening one for the other, but we have solid depth at both forward and defense, so we can afford either if a good opportunity arises. Given our specific situation, I think we need more immediate help on defense, but in the not too distant future we'll need forwards. I think it's a little too soon to get aggressive.


Keep most of the prospects and kids, though giving up a couple wouldn't kill us. Of the vets, only Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Kronwall have significant certain trade value, and none would bring enough immediate return to offset their loss. I doubt any would bring even enough future return to make it worth it either. Franzen, Weiss, and Helm might have value, depending on how their health and performance holds up next year. Either way, I don't think there's much chance at any major moves right now. Maybe at the deadline next year, or more likely at the 2015 draft. Of course by then, depending on how the kids are looking, we might not need any moves.

#2517653 A plea to Holland.

Posted by Buppy on 27 April 2014 - 02:38 PM


I guess you're alright with 6 goals in 5 playoff games then. 

Last year the Pens...Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Iginla, Kunitz...managed just 2 goals in 4 games against the same team.

#2517495 Was Legwand worth it?

Posted by Buppy on 26 April 2014 - 11:41 PM

My god who cares about a streak. It's cool don't get me wrong but what's better.

Braves winning the division like 20 straight years AND INE CHAMPIONSHIP or the Yankees who have like 27.

You don't play sports to JUST make the playoffs. It's all about the championships. Now if your Columbus and you make playoffs...ya you can be excited cause you haven't experienced it before.

I'm a wings steelers tigers and michigan fan. It's championship or bust every year. I watched michigan lose their streak. Ya it sucked...but who cares EVERYONE experiences a transition at some point. CHAMPIONSHIP OR BUST.

You act like trying to make the playoffs and trying to build a championship team are mutually exclusive goals. They're not. Nor, I think, was our intent this season to just make the playoffs. Getting into the playoffs means you have a chance to do something more. Maybe not a good chance, or even a realistic chance, but a chance nonetheless.


And it's not like we traded away Crosby either. Jarnkrok was a good prospect, may yet turn out to be a great player, but thus far there's nothing that looks particularly special about him. He's out of waiver exemptions after next year. Sheahan, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Mantha, and Athanasiou are all on a similar timetable, and all look to have similar or better potential. Add that to Tatar and Nyquist, plus all the vets, grinder types, and possible UFA additions... there wasn't room for everyone anyway. Still isn't really. Jarnkrok was not our future, just a possible piece of it.


Regardless how Jarnkrok turns out, or what happens with Legwand, the move made sense given our situation at the time. Giving up a good prospect for a temp isn't ideal, but neither was our situation. Maybe we overpaid, maybe we could have gotten the same results calling up Jarnkrok, maybe he'll turn out to be a star... but none of that really matters.

#2517423 What is more important?

Posted by Buppy on 26 April 2014 - 09:19 PM

Neither is likely to get you very far, depending on how you want to define great and average.

#2514399 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by Buppy on 23 April 2014 - 02:47 PM


I have mixed feelings about your post.  Sure, fans overreact when their team looks as bad as we have the last couple of games.  And obviously, the sky is not falling.  You're right, we've made the playoffs a whole bunch of times and in general we're lucky we never have to watch a bottom feeder. 

But you also make it seem like we should pat ourselves on the back for making the playoffs as if that's some victory in and of itself.  It would be...for the Lions.  But given that the Red Wings ALWAYS make it, there's some expectation that periodically they'll challenge for a Cup, or make it to the finals, or even make it to the conference finals...none of which we've done since 2009. 


If it's an overreaction to assume that everything about the team sucks and the Wings are terrible, its an equally bad under-reaction to assume that nothing is wrong with the team, and if not for a few less injuries we'd have been competing for Cups these last few years.  


I guess all I'm saying is that if you look at it objectively, there is some reason to worry that the team is trending in the wrong direction (e.g. barely making the playoffs, stinking up their first round series' against Nashville and now Boston, blowing 3-1 series leads, etc.)

We should pat ourselves on the back. Making the playoffs last season and even more so this season, is a victory. We should be proud of our playoff performance last year, even if we did "blow" a 3-1 lead. Even if we lose in 5 to the PT winners, a team that won a Cup a few years ago and went to the finals last year, it's nothing to be ashamed of.


Having some pride in what we've been able to accomplish during the beginning of our transition is not the same as assuming nothing is wrong with the team. Nothing lasts forever, and that includes being content with marginal achievements. Saying, "we did well this year, all things considered", is in no way, shape, or form a statement that we should never try or expect to improve.


You say "trending in the wrong direction", but by definition you have to go down before you can head back up. To suggest that we should already be getting back to the top is saying we never should have fallen in the first place, or at least that our floor should have been a top 7 overall finish and a 2nd round loss. The expectations most people have for this team are ridiculously unrealistic. We've barely even declined (at least relative to what "decline" means for the rest of the league), and by the look of our kids this year we may already be moving back up (at least in the short-term). It's actually pretty damn impressive, and it's a shame more people can't appreciate it.

#2514287 2014 draft thoughts.

Posted by Buppy on 23 April 2014 - 10:50 AM

BTW not sure how we let this happen, but Goodrow signed with the SJS.

Second-tier scorer as an over-ager in junior. Also didn't get a contract from Carolina or the Rangers. I see no reason to care. We already have Tvrdon covering the "looks like he could be pretty good but probably won't" spot.

#2510042 Round 1 Line Combinations

Posted by Buppy on 16 April 2014 - 02:22 PM


Personally I think that Dats, Abby, Alfie could play the Bergeron line even.  I also think the Kid Line would give the Krejci line fits because of it's speed and because Sheahan and Jurco are the biggest and strongest options we've got to play against Lucic and Iginla.  If we could get a wash out of those two and free up a Franzen, Legwand, Nyquist line to play against their third line, I think we could beat them.  And it goes without saying that Miller, Helm, and Glendening would eat their fourth line alive/provide for defensive relief with defensive zone starts for the kids/augmenting the Kindl-Lashoff pairing. 


Your thoughts?

If Dats and Alfie can play like Dats and Alfie (or better yet even, slightly younger versions of themselves) I'd say so, and Abby might be able to keep the worst of Marchand in check. The speed of the kids probably would cause some problems, I just don't think they have the defensive chops to keep up. If they got enough help it might work. Mule-Leggy (or Helm)-Gus should be able to beat their 3rd line.


No matter how we juggle the lines I think we should be able to get the better of their bottom 6. So if we can beat or break even with their top 6, it should offset their advantage on defense. Then it's a matter of Jimmy vs Rask.


Typed out, that last line looks more disheartening than it does in my head.

#2509461 Helm Finally Looking Like His Old Self!

Posted by Buppy on 14 April 2014 - 12:06 AM

I swear I thought this thread was going to be a report that he was injured again.

#2507093 Lightning sign GM Yzerman to contract extension

Posted by Buppy on 07 April 2014 - 11:45 PM


What about the last few years?  Don't count or matter?

What about the last few years for Tampa Bay?


Half this board wants Kenny crucified because we've declined to borderline playoff team. Yzerman started with a team that finished 7th overall (only 1 point less than Detroit that year) and went to the conference finals, dropped to 20th overall and out of the playoffs the next year, 28th overall and fighting for the 1st pick last year, and now rebounded to a similar spot as us and still worse than when he started. Board went ape nuts when we traded a kid who had never played in the NHL, I can't even imagine the hell that would have rained down had Kenny traded Datsyuk for Callahan, much less been rumored to be the reason for Datsyuk demanding a trade.


If what's happened in TB under Stevie had happened here under Kenny, I'm sure someone here would already have a time machine built and Kenny's mom would be in big trouble...

#2507049 A plea to Holland.

Posted by Buppy on 07 April 2014 - 07:53 PM


My biggest issue is that this is the automatic way it's done.  The roster is always full of veterans so there's little room for any of the prospects to even get a chance until someone gets hurt or until they've run out of waiver options.  I'm sure it's because Babcock and Holland don't generally trust rookies/young players until they prove their worthiness, but maybe that's changed this year.  I think it has with Babcock, and I hope it has with Holland.  Not completely, I don't think they should abandon the process and rush Mantha, Pulkkinen, Athanasiou, Mrazek, and some of the young defensemen all up here next year, but start leaving room for some of them to get a decent taste of NHL action and go from there.

Well, it's not the automatic way it's done. More often than not the really good players do earn roster spots before they run out of waiver exemptions. Usually because they're good enough to earn an injury call-up prior to that, and perform well when they do. Occasionally it's just because we have an opening.


Fischer, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filppula, Helm, Smith, Brunner, Dekeyser... all of them did it. Possibly Hudler and Kronwall as well. Maybe even Abby (I think 07-08 counted as his first year, but maybe not).


Tatar and Nyquist are more exception than rule. The guys that normally get left down until they're out of options are the guys like Kindl, Emmerton, Andersson, Kopecky, Ritola, Mursak...


Free agency is a narrow window, and once you let that opportunity go you can't go back. Sign a proven player and leave a kid you think is ready in the minors: It doesn't work out, or you have injuries, you have the option of using that kid. Pick the kid instead of a proven player what happens if it doesn't work? Fall back on another kid you didn't think was as good as the first one?


And now we're getting to a point where kids are competing against other kids. Emmerton lost his spot to Andersson. Andy may be headed the same way, or if not then there's less opportunity for Glendening, Ferraro, and Callahan. Could be hard to find spots in the lineup for all of Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco, and Pulkkinen, even if we leave one or both of Jurco and Pulu in GR next year and that's not even considering Mantha possibly jumping one (or both) of them.


In short, nothing about how we handle young players needs to change. Mostly because we already handle them the way you're all suggesting anyway. The way we handled Nyquist this year should have been different, which is to say it should have been the way we handled other good kids in the past. But that's in the past, it worked out pretty well regardless, and there's no good reason to think it's a pattern or particularly likely to happen again.

#2507028 Jack Adams award discussion and speculation

Posted by Buppy on 07 April 2014 - 06:04 PM

I've never liked the whole "coached the team well despite injuries" argument.  By that rationale Blysma should win it, considering Pittsburgh has more injuries to equally important players, and has a better record. 

I think Bylsma should get consideration, though I wouldn't say they've had more injuries to important players. It's fairly even, with the Wings being worse at forward and the Pens worse on defense. I think it comes down to what value you want to assume for Weiss and Vokoun.