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BuppyMember Since 14 Feb 2009
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Posted by Buppy on 20 July 2011 - 01:49 PM
Based solely on the results I'd give this year a D. Judging on a curve based on my assumption of what the real options were, probably C+.
Posted by Buppy on 05 July 2011 - 01:08 AM
Yeah, Kenny should have planned better, like the Sharks. Then maybe we could have zero Cups or trips to the finals, but we'd all feel so much better after losing in the 3rd round two years in a row.
The bottom line is that top to bottom, this might be the worst Wings team to take to the ice since 1991. And with proper foreplanning, it didn't have to be this way.
The Sharks have been pretty 'creative' post lockout, if you define creative as 'making big trades'. Two blockbuster deals before these Minny trades. Haven't won s*** yet, and it's debateable if they're even any better this year.
Stop kidding yourself. This isn't about wanting the Wings to win. Big trades and big signings don't guarantee anything, and I'm sure you'd admit that if you could be honest with yourself. You, and all the other whiners now bashing Kenny just got your hopes up for some big, exciting move and now you're butt-hurt because you didn't get it. Like a spoiled kid on Christmas that didn't get that shiney, new, must-have toy of the season. You're incapable of appreciating what you do get. Like Veruca Salt. No matter what you get you always want more. The more you get, the more you're convinced that it's always possible to get everything and a good Daddy would get it for you.
But in the real world, sometimes the store's sold out, especially when the stock was low in the first place. Sometimes, when you're trying to guess what the future holds, you're wrong. Sometimes Wonka doesn't want your money, no matter how much you offer.
You don't know what Kenny tried to do, or is still trying to do. You just assume, since the result was less than you'd hoped for, that he didn't try. Or he was stupid, or he's lazy and sucks. People were saying the same s*** in '00, and again '06. A lesser GM might have blown up the team, and we'd be a Cup or two shorter or even in full on rebuild mode like the Avs.
In the space of two years, we have made it through a pretty significant cap crunch while still staying a legit contender. Pretty good work, even if the teams weren't quite as good as we'd have liked. Now we've got the cap room, but we haven't found anyone to spend it on yet, and maybe won't at all this year. But all you can do is act like it's the end of the world because maybe we're only a good team instead of elite.
That doesn't make you a discerning fan; it makes you a spoiled brat.
- Travis likes this
Posted by Buppy on 04 July 2011 - 10:27 PM
It seems you're just determined to hate Holland, so I don't know why I'm wasting my time, and I hate to derail the thread...
That was as clear and concise as it can be... Regarding Hollands lack of planning. Pavs will be back. We will pay him what he wants. Z is another probable lifer although I think Pavs is a better chance as a lifer.
What is bad is that Ken is doing this pick and choose crap with prospects and draft picks. If I was 22 and just won a championship in little league I would expect to be rolled out into the big leagues. Jurco is getting screwed and will want to leave if he watches his ex team mates scoring in the pros.
Maybe Im a different breed but when I buy something, I buy it because I plan to use it. Holland is stuck in the 90s with no cap and just see who looks good after we throw good money after bad.
Ill be rooting for the team come October, I just wont be happy about whos wearing a sweater as well as what our team will look like 3-4 years from now.
You can't really 'plan' to be this good for this long, especially with the veteran-heavy strategy that's been so successful. Low draft picks mean few top prospects. Older players mean fewer trade assets. Plus normal FA attrition. Plus losing Konstantinov and Fischer...
It is nothing short of remarkable that we have remained a legit Cup contender every year of Holland's tenure. No other team in the league has even made the playoffs every year. Many haven't been a contender even one year. While of course much of that success is due to Nick, Pav, and Hank, much is also due to Holland carefully planning for both the present and the future at the same time.
We are still a good team as we are. Good enough to win a Cup if we get hot at the right time. The Sharks got better on defense, but worse at forward. Vancouver and Chicago both lost a good defenseman without really replacing them. LA looks a lot better but they started behind us and we still have to see how they'll gel. Columbus got better but so what. Nashville is worse on defense and still doesn't have an offense. In the East Washington looks good, but still have that choker label to shed. Boston is about the same, Philly looks worse, TB still has work to do but doesn't look like they'll be any better, and Pittsburgh with a healthy Crosby may be the best team right now, assuming he doesn't disrupt the effort/chemistry they found without him. In short, I don't see any team that we aren't capable of beating. I'd say right now we're just outside the group of top contenders, and a bit ahead of the dark-horse range.
In short, we are not in a position that we need to dismantle anything, or make desperate moves now just because it seems like a good idea or because 'well, we need to do something'.
My point on Pav and Hank had nothing to do with them leaving as FAs. Pav is 33, we have maybe 3-5 years at most with him as a dominant player. Hank not much, if any, longer. It takes time for prospects to develop. Even if Jurco (who is 18 by the way) joined the team this year, and is a star in the making, he still might not be ready to take over for Pav in 3 years. Pulu and Jarnkrok are still in Europe. It's not a matter of 'picking and choosing' prospects, whatever that is even supposed to mean. It's that we don't have top 5 picks that are NHL ready on draft day. We draft guys that have a lot of upside, but also need a lot of development before they can play at this level. Pav and Hank both spent 3 years in Europe after we drafted them. Mule might have come straight over if not for the lockout, but he was also 24 when we drafted him. Guys make the team when they're ready (Helm and the stacked '09 team notwithstanding).
This isn't a game where we can just do anything we want. Other teams aren't going to trade for our s*** just because we offer them a lot of it. And there are very few sure bets that even might be available. Yandle looks great, but he could also stagnate or even regress. Even Doughty isn't a sure thing. Making short-sighted moves now may pay off, or may leave us in the same situation but with fewer options.
We have a good team. We have good enough pieces that it won't be the end of the world, even if Nick retires and we don't get an all-star to replace him. We have options at the deadline. We have another summer of free agency. We do not need to make a rash decision. If a good trade is there, great. If not, we need to be patient. Yeah, it sucks that none of the better defensemen made it to free agency. Sucks that the Sharks had the right parts to land Burns. But that does not mean we need to make dumb moves.
Posted by Buppy on 04 July 2011 - 07:10 PM
I wouldn't go that far. No trade would be better than a bad trade. We have a good number of prospects, but most of the role-player variety, and mostly at forward. We have few roster players with decent trade value, and no real 'extra' players.
Im not saying Buff in particular, Im saying a big name player LIKE him. Keith Yandle has a nice ring to it.
My point is we shouldnt be doing all of our rebuilding based on FA. Ill wait and see if thats why we have such huge cap space. If we are done with the D for the year Holland sucks. If he is working some trades then Ill reserve judgment.
I hope at least a few of you can see my distress in how we are remanning the team. Im a business owner and when you know you are going to have a coming retirement, you want to get a replacement in to overlap so that the new guy can hit the ground running so to speak. The way I see the setup right now, we are hiring with the idea that employee turnover will solve our problems. This isnt McDonalds or Walmart. This is a business that needs some career guys that are going to be able to climb the proverbial corporate ladder. Thats ROI not cheap and expendable labor like Holland is signing on right now.
We also have a relatively short time in which to find replacements for Pav and Hank as well. I think we're out of time to find a replacement in the draft, unless we tank far enough to get in the top 5-10. I think the only hope of keeping the train on the tracks is for a couple of our top prospects to become stars. Tatar, Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, Jurco, maybe Nyquist and Sheahan are guys with a chance. But right now we don't really know if any of those guys will even be the next Filppula. At defense we have Smith, and maybe Marchenko, and then a bunch of guys (mostly undersized offensive guys) who may never even play in the league.
Not exactly a plethora of assets, and if we give up too many of the forwards we increase the odds of needing to do the same thing in a few more years for Pav/Hank; possibly with fewer assets to work with.
We can either do a real blockbuster and trade Datsyuk or Zetterberg (or both) and a bunch of extras and try to address both forward and defense at once, or sell the farm for Nick's replacement and worry about the forwards when the time comes, or trust our forward prospects and try to replace Nick without using them.
The last option seems the best choice to me, but it limits our options. Flip or Mule could be traded, but they'd also need to be replaced with someone good. We've pretty much passed that option this year (at least for Mule), unless we find a desperate team at the deadline. Abby is more expendable, but lower value. Mursak or any of our 3rd/4th line prospects are all expendable. Hudler of course, but he's at a low value point so not a good option right now. Kindl is probably the best option; decent prospect value but replaceable. Smith would be ok, but only if we're getting a sure thing (like Yandle) in return. Picks would have to be the primary piece.
I don't have much hope that we can do anything right now. Yandle is probably beyond our range. I think our best hope is the trade deadline, or next summer.
I think we're done this summer. Kenny's already said it wasn't what he was hoping for, and if he had it to do over again he would probably give up a pick to talk to Wis or Ehrhoff, but what's done (or in this case: not) is done. Can't win 'em all. Just have to hope next year goes better.
- 55fan likes this
Posted by Buppy on 27 June 2011 - 02:20 AM
Being upset that we didn't get Burns (or anyone else), and even more upset that SJ did is one thing. Blaming it on Kenny as if he had complete control of the situation, especially when you have no idea what Kenny did or didn't do, is another. You seem to be under the assumption that we can do whatever we want.
funny really... Thats all that anyone saw.....most of that was about picks and being an agressive GM and that is all anyone saw.
Burns (in my opinion) was just the final shoe to drop that got Babs angry.. seeing Carter to CLB for rights to a RFA and a 1st and 3rd being a trade we could of made as well.
My focus was on making the team better.....via trade...as it has been said we would do. I realize the season has not started yet....and Its a long season once it starts...
And I guess San Jose doesnt covet their young talent like the Wings do. I am with Babs I am upset we didnt get him... dont ask me who to trade....I never once dropped names like some of you did. your asking me when your all telling me " I am a idiot..." and A furious fan because we didnt get a good player for nothing... Whatever folks...
I also realize that FA starts on Friday. and we have money.... should get a lot of guys. But the question is...... Will we? I reserve the rights to have doubts... But Ill wait till after the holiday weekend.
Honestly, you just sound bored. Like you want something to happen just for sake of something happening. Being aggressive doesn't make a team better; being right does. Philly's always been pretty aggressive...where's it gotten them? You can't make moves just to be doing something, and you can't make bad moves just because it seems like a good idea now. Even if Kenny made all the moves you want, it doesn't guarantee a Cup. And if we don't win the Cup, criticizing the moves as failures like people did with Hossa. Even in the best case scenario, we win the Cup, it doesn't end there. Kenny would just have to do it all over again next year. It's like for some people he has to be perfect in order to be considered adequate.
If you look at the deals that were actually made, we would have had to sell the farm to match them. We don't have a young goal scorer on the roster, or a prospect as highly rated as Coyle. We don't have a 21 year-old 50-point scorer, or one of the highest rated prospects (top rated by HF). The #8 overall was worth more than all our picks this year put together. The only way for us to match those deals would be to add more prospects and picks. Some teams wouldn't even want that. Trades aren't like buying something at a store where you offer up the right sum value and the other team automatically accepts. The actual currency matters; some teams would rather have a couple shiny quarters than handful of nickels.
Even if they would, we still have to consider whether it's the right move for us long-term. We're heading into a transition period. Nick, Pav, Hank, Mule, Bert, Homer, Stuart, Kronwall...all either aging or on expiring contracts. Trades could fill a couple holes, but not all of them. Free agency can help too. But you can't build a team that way. We give up all our prospects to fill a couple holes with stars and star salaries, we're left with no way to fill the other holes. In the cap era, you need good, cheap, prospects to round out your team. San Jose has Couture, so Setoguchi became expendable. They're tighter to the cap, so they have fewer options, so for them it makes sense to risk the future to better their odds for a Cup now.
We, on the other hand, could potentially sign three of the top defenseman available. For us, giving up prospects for him makes much less sense. With Carter or Richards we'd have another long-term contract to worry about, maybe a risk we don't want even it if we could have gotten one of them.
We were good enough to compete for the Cup last year, as we have been every single year Holland has been GM. We really only have one hole at the moment, and a lot of cap room to fill that and try to get better...without giving up what few future assets we have.
Trades are fun to talk about and there's some I'd make if I could. But you can't get pissed about something you know nothing about. Speculate all you like, but you don't actually know if any given trade would be accepted. No matter how good it seems to you, unless you've spoken with the GM on the other side you can't say it's possible with the certainty you need in order to justify criticizng Kenny. At least have the respect to save your criticism until you see an offer he turned down or he makes a move you don't like.
- Heaten likes this
Posted by Buppy on 25 June 2011 - 12:13 PM
You're all just assuming Kenny didn't make an offer, as if the hockey world revolves around us and every team looking to deal has to come to us for permission. For all we know Kenny did make an offer and was turned down, or Minny really liked SJs offer and Kenny never had a chance.
I'm also disappointed that we didn't get Burns. I'm surprised the price was that low, and believe we could have offered something comparable. But I'm not going to get pissed at someone who's done so much for this team even if it comes out that he wasn't interested in Burns.
There are reasons why Burns wouldn't be as attractive to us as he was to SJ.
The Sharks also needed a top 4 defenseman. They don't have the cap space we do so their FA prospects aren't as good. Burns gives them a stud at a cheap price. They have the rest of their top 4 signed beyond this year; we already have 3 top 4 defenseman in their last year. Setoguchi was their 7th best forward; if we had to give up Flip or Franzen it'd be our 3rd/4th best, and our top 6 was already weaker than SJ's.
If I hear that Minny asked us for Hudler and Emmerton and we turned it down, I'd be pissed. But if it would have been Flip and Nyquist, even though I'd still do it, I could at least understand. Burns is better than any FA this year, but he's not a Norris candidate.
Posted by Buppy on 23 June 2011 - 10:53 PM
The 'weakness' is that the roster relies on an unrealistic trade for Burns.
if u read the post i said trade kindl. and ya, smith would have to make the team, but i think itd be a great opportunity for lids to mentor him, and pairing him with a safe solid guy like stuart would be good for his development. why the hell would kenny not make a run at richards? its his job to make the team better. we have the cap space to sign 2 top dmen and richards, why not? who were you going to spend it on? theres a chance richards would be interested in a move to a team like detroit, not the biggest payday available... do you see a gaping weakness in the roster i proposed other than perhaps smith? theres money to sign a UFA at 2mill if you remove smith. its my "dream roster" so ya, its my opinion. not everyone has to like it.
Then there's about $8M is raises due the following year, essentially forcing Nick into retirement, and even after that if you lose Jagr, Homer, and Bert you're left with a hole in the top 6. Maybe if we knew the cap would go up another $3-5M...
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Posted by Buppy on 23 June 2011 - 08:52 PM
Move all the other West teams to the East, and all the East teams to the West, then relocate the Prime Meridian to Central Asia, thus placing all of the US west of Pittsburgh in the Eastern hemisphere, to give some logic to the whole thing.
Posted by Buppy on 21 June 2011 - 09:15 AM
I'm aware of how the cap works. I'm also aware that Smith and Tatar both make under $900K in the NHL. Thus we would need only 5 days to pass without calling anyone up before we could call one of them up for one day. And for every 5 days without a call up we could have one of those guys for a day.
The cap doesn't work that way. The cap hit is the player's salary prorated to how much of the season has already gone by. If we had only $200K cap space, then the team would have no way of calling up anyone from the AHL throughout most of the season (unless a player went on LTIR, and that means losing a player for ten games and 24 calendar days). This cap mechanic is why the Devils ended up playing with ten forwards in some early games last season while roster players (i.e. Rolston) were injured: they were too close to the cap.
The only way your logic would succeed were if Smith or Tatar to be called up late in the season.
Sure, there's some risk being that close. But it's also a 23 man roster, so we'd need 4 skaters (or a goalie) injured before we even need a call-up. And honestly, what would it really matter if we did have to play a few games here and there with a short roster. Really no different than someone getting hurt during a game.
So, small risk of being slightly handicapped for a meaningless game or 3 and a better roster while healthy. I'll take that.
- GoWings1905 likes this
Posted by Buppy on 18 June 2011 - 03:17 PM
Name Age Ht Wt S GP G A P +/- PIM H B EST SHT PPT TOI Cap Alberts 29 77 218 L 42 1 6 7 0 41 113 49 13.48 1.55 0.1 15.15 $1,050,000 Babchuk 27 77 212 R 82 11 24 35 14 32 19 156 13.26 0.5 2.56 16.34 $1,400,000 Bieksa 30 73 198 R 66 6 16 22 32 73 104 93 18.07 2.67 1.72 22.47 $3,750,000 Brewer 32 75 220 L 76 9 7 16 6 81 145 120 18.31 3.12 0.59 22.04 $4,250,000 Ehrhoff 28 74 203 L 79 14 36 50 19 52 54 108 18.28 2.13 3.55 23.98 $3,100,000 Eminger 27 74 203 R 65 2 4 6 -5 22 143 103 14.2 1.33 0.3 15.85 $1,125,000 Greene 28 71 190 L 82 4 19 23 -23 22 49 157 18.75 2.32 1.27 22.35 $737,500 Hejda 33 76 237 L 77 5 15 20 -6 28 152 158 18.12 2.83 0.13 21.12 $2,000,000 Mara 31 76 211 L 53 1 5 6 1 88 88 85 15.01 2.36 0.88 18.27 $750,000 Montador 31 72 207 R 73 5 21 26 16 83 86 138 17.27 2.07 0.37 19.72 $1,550,000 O'Brien 27 75 230 L 80 2 7 9 1 83 164 80 14.2 2.83 0.07 17.10 $1,600,000 Pitkanen 27 75 210 L 72 5 30 35 -2 60 66 130 19.73 1.15 4.12 25.02 $4,000,000 Vandermeer 31 73 214 L 62 2 12 14 -15 74 122 78 15.65 2.07 0.45 18.20 $2,300,000 White 27 70 200 R 78 4 22 26 3 26 59 144 16.73 1.08 2.16 19.98 $2,999,995 Wisniewski 27 71 208 R 75 10 41 51 -14 38 108 119 17.47 0.99 4.46 22.93 $3,250,000
I'd like two preferably RH shots that can play the PP, and at least one solid PKer who can block shots and hit. I'd want Kindl to at least have a shot at a regular spot in the lineup. For future considerations, I'd like to see deals that leave room to add Smith next year, while also keeping Kronwall and Stuart, and go after someone like Burns or Suter if Nick retires. Few, if any, of these guys would be interested in one year deals, but we could always look for a trade later.
Wisniewski and Bieksa would fill our needs perfectly, and we could fill the third spot with anyone. Might not fit the cap though, and I have doubts that Bieksa will make it to July 1st. I think Hejda would be a great addition too, and maybe better value than some of the more popular guys.
Anyways, figured some might like the stats for handy comparison. I can add other players to it, if requested.
- ilmickeyli likes this
Posted by Buppy on 11 June 2011 - 02:22 PM
He's 41. He's just being honest. Obviously still has the desire to play, but is uncertain if he really wants everything that goes with it and he's willing to accept retirement. Essentially the same things Lidstrom has been saying the past two years.
You're just pissy because things didn't go well here.
- weGotTheCup89 likes this
Posted by Buppy on 11 June 2011 - 01:57 PM
I think his choice of wording and his manner made it seem like a dig. Regardless, still funny coming from a guy who let in more goals in one game than Thomas has all series.
Didn't seem like trash talking to me. 7uongo readily admits that because of Thomas' style that he is adept at making saves that he himself could not make, but the opposite is the same. If you stay in your net (Luongo), those saves aren't too difficult to make. Seems like a decent analysis.
I'm really hoping Boston can pull the upset. Not because I like Boston or dislike Vancouver. I just think Boston fans are less likely to spend the summer on here trying to convince us how great they are like Pittsburgh/Chicago fans did.
- vladdy16 likes this
Posted by Buppy on 09 June 2011 - 09:38 PM
If that happens, the cap goes up to $63M, they sign Bryz for $6M, and dump Versteeg, Carle, and both of their other goalies they'd have $7.85M to sign an entire 3rd line + 4th line forward + 3rd pair D + backup goalie + 1-3 depth players. It's a tight fit.
Maybe they think having say Hudler + Leino for the same price as Carter + a minimum wage plug would be better. Maybe add a cheap but attractive prospect like Tatar who could either fill a third line role or be sent to the AHL, and a cheap defenseman with some upside...
Hudler, Tatar, Kindl, 1st, + 3rd (plus maybe Emmerton or Andersson) for Carter and Carle. I think it makes both teams better (though I don't know what prospects Philly already has to fill holes cheaply, so maybe not).
Ville Leino ($3.000m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Scott Hartnell ($4.200m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Andreas Nodl ($1.250m)
Jiri Hudler ($2.875m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Tomas Tatar ($0.840m)
Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Zenon Konopka ($0.750m) / Darroll Powe ($0.950m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m) / Ian Laperriere ($1.166m)
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) / Sean O'Donnell ($1.300m)
Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)
Ilya Bryzgalov ($6.000m) / Brian Boucher ($0.950m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $63,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,673,928; BONUSES: $1,110,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $326,072
Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Tomas Holmstrom ($1.875m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m) / Johan Franzen ($3.954m)
Todd Bertuzzi ($1.937m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.787m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m)
Drew Miller ($0.850m) / Darren Helm ($0.912m) / Patrick Eaves ($0.950m)
Kris Draper ($0.750m) / Jan Mursak ($0.550m)
Nicklas Lidstrom ($6.000m) / Brad Stuart ($3.750m)
Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m) / James Wisniewski ($4.500m)
Jay Harrison ($1.500m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)
Derek Meech ($0.550m)
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m) / Chris Osgood ($0.750m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $63,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,160,605; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $839,395
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Posted by Buppy on 05 June 2011 - 04:00 AM
So... the difference between amazing and terrible is 3 points. Yeah. I guess I shouldn't have estimated the 2nd half as 'from January on'; cheated poor, poor, abused little Hudler out of one entire point to his advantage. That makes all the difference in the world. Completely invalidates my point that you're judging the two players by different standards. Clearly, a two point difference isn't enough to say one player was amazing and one player terrible. But three points. My God, such a monumental disparity. 6 goals to 2 in the last 32 games. Well, obviously Franzen should be shot and Hudler elevated to sainthood. I mean, come on. Hudler scoring at nearly a 16 goal pace. Such scorching numbers are a great reason to displace a better all-around player with a career goals/game nearly twice as high.
Well, if we divide it exactly in half it divides between January 7th and 8th. This places Hudler and Franzen with the following second-half stats:
Franzen 36 gp, 11g-12a-23pt
Hudler 37 gp, 7g-19a-26pt
So offensively, Hudler's second half was better. As for my comments about Franzen? In the last 32 games of the season, Franzen scored 2 goals. Hudler scored six in that time frame.
If I had the time to waste (maybe someone here does) we could go through and pick apart box scores to figure out which of Franzen's 55 points and Hudler's 37 were influenced by Datsyuk, Zetterberg, etc.
Oh, and in the last 33 games of the season, Franzen scored 7 goals to Hudler's 6. And in the first 49: 21-4
It's not a secret that Franzen gets more ice time, and more time with better linemates. What you don't seem to grasp is that Franzen deserves it more. So do Filppula, Cleary, Bert, and Homer. They are all either better players or at least better suited to the role needed, which isn't always just offense.
So what if poor little Hudler's stats suffer. The team is better for it.