Buppy

I disagree.  Filppula is an average 2nd line player but a brilliant 3rd line player.  We're still waiting for his break-out season instead of a break-out month.  He'll have to break 41pts before you can loudly proclaim him a top six player.  I'm sure he can break that barrier but the fact remains that his best season in the NHL was 40pts in 08-09.

He's not a 'brilliant' 3rd-liner either. He's a far better player with better linemates. This past season, and '08 where he spent a bunch of time with Datsyuk, and then a red-hot Franzen in the playoffs proves that.

That's the worst part of the Bert signing. It will most likely push Flip down, and take whatever PP time he was going to get. Flip isn't going to break out of anything from the third line. He couldn't with Hudler and Sammy, he won't with whomever he gets this year. We'll likely end up spending $7.5 million on a third line that scores 35 goals. I kind of hope we trade him now. He deserves a better opportunity.

What are you guys complaining about?

$2 million a year is nothing compared to how much guys are being overpaid around the league.

It's not a terrible price, but it's still $2 million for 2 years for a player we didn't need, and who won't help much. I know I said I wouldn't hate it, but at that price and term it sucks.

Once Helm, Abby, a 7th defenseman, and 13th forward are signed, we'll be lucky to have $500k left for deadline moves.

Also, if we're lucky and Nick comes back again, this is our teams for two more years. We'll maybe lose Draper and Ozzie, replace them with nobodies, and spend the savings on raises for Howard and Ericsson. Hooray.

You mean a stretch of 8 games in which he dominated. He had his slow parts of the season, but overall for his price he was a great value, even if you subtract his one man act which single handedly won us 3-4 games.

Hahaha. It was 3 games where he carried us on offense, even in those Jimmy was just as important or more in getting the wins. His 'slow parts' accounted for around 60 or so games. Regardless of value, 18 goals in a full season is not what you want out of your top 6.

Waaaah!

Fixed that for you.

Hmmmm, I thought I explained it well enough for even the simple minds to understand.  I KNOW THE DRAFT IS A CRAP SHOOT AND YOU ARE PRETTY MUCH DRAWING STRAWS BY TIME THE 7TH AND 8TH ROUNDS GET HERE, ALSO THE WINGS WEREN'T THE ONLY ONES TO PASS THESE GUYS UP.  I simply said it would be nice to have taken a chance on one or a few of those guys instead of just drafting what we always draft.  And as for being a Euro hater, you couldn't be more wrong considering my favorite player of all time is Sergei Fedorov (and no I didn't become a fan after he was here, been a fan of the Wings for over 30 years.) if you don't believe me, just go research some of my post on trade day 2008, when we almost got Fedorov back, but someone didn't want him in the organization again...

I realize you consider yourself pretty knowledgeable, but I am just so used to hearing Holland say "bigger and faster and grittier" every draft ad every July 1st, only to come up with Jiri Hudler, Yuri Butsayev and the like, then pass up on people who contacts Holland first (Manny Malhotra) but decide to sign Jason Williams instead for the same money, ya I get a little angry, but hey, I am not Holland, I just wish he wouldn't say we need this and then go out and get that.

I am glad Datsyuk and Zetterberg have worked out, ya and a lot of his late round picks, but one can wish that he would gamble on that big, gritty guy once in a while cant I? Seems to me Byfuglien is doing pretty well for himself for being obese, much better than Blom or Collar.  But like I said before, its a roll of the dice, how many teams in the first 6 rounds wish they had drafted Pavelski? Exactly, they were just examples of Holland only looking at a certain type of player, yet all the time saying we need a different type of player.  Hell, I hope Emmerton works out, as well as Tartar. So, keep your racial implications to yourself, and if you think the USS Liberty wasn't on purpose, then talk to someone who was there...

First, I'll apologize if I'm wrong about the Euro-hate. Seems every post of yours lately speaks critically of Holland targeting 'small, skilled Euros'. I'm sure you can understand how that can be miscontrued.

But Holland does not target 'small' players. He targets skilled players. More specifically, skilled two-way players. Big or small doesn't much matter. The main reason many of them are smaller is because that's all that's usually left in the later rounds. Guys like Franzen, Kopy, Ericsson, Kindl, etc. are all on the big side. Nor does Holland really target Euros. Just with the strength of our European scouts and our typical position in the draft, he feels we'll be more successful with those picks. And it's hard to argue with our track record. Also, Pavelski is exactly the type of player that Holland does typically target. Just one that we happened to miss out on. Since he doesn't fit your argument, it really just looks like you're cherry-picking to fuel some anti-Euro agenda. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it comes off to me.

Furthermore, I think you're confusing Holland saying he wants to add some grit and/or size with a desire to add all grit and/or size. And also cherry-picking again to overlook cases where he has picked up gritty players.

Bertuzzi and May this year. Abdelkader, Stuart, Downey, Drake (not big, but gritty), Shawn Matthias, Nick Oslund, Julien Cuyer, Brian Lashoff, Landon Ferraro (like Drake, not very big, but fiesty). I'm sure there's more.

...
There are always options. Despite a rough season, Holland shouldn't have turned his sights right to one of our most valuable prospects.
...

This thread just seems to be excuse after excuse to justify what obviously was just a bad decision on Holland's part. He had to pick somone to go and he chose.....poorly. The quicker you guys wise up and accept it, the better. There's simply no justifying trading a guy for zilch who ends up being the star of the SCF, no matter how you look at it. And even if what some of you say is true, that he just didn't "fit into our system". How does that reflect on us and our organization? So we essentially have a system that somehow holds back and doesn't fit a guy who, on another team, would be a prime goal scorer and point producer? That doesn't sound any better.

Oh and feel free to dig up my posts from when the trade was announced. From the moment he was traded, I said it was idiotic and would come back to bite us in the ass, just like I did with Quincey and just like I said signing Williams was the worst mistake Holland could do in the offseason. I'll happily admit when I'm wrong but it's rarely the case. ....

I did dig up your one post (related to Leino at least) from the Leino trade thread...

I dunno guys.....

I see Leino having a breakout season next year (ala Quincey) and a LOT of pissed Wings fans......

While you did indeed dislike the move, that sounds a lot more like Quincey-inspired fear than actually thinking it was 'idiotic'.

I also dug up this post from you regarding possibly trading Williams...

Is it that unfathomable for a team to take on Williams and Lebda's contracts combined?  With those guys you can at least make a decent selling attempt.  Williams does have some skill and Lebda has speed and playoff experience.

Yes, that actually would be a nice package for some decent draft picks. Like I said though, the one thing we can't afford to do right now is shed potential offense, and shedding Williams would be doing just that. If our offense wasn't such s***, I'd be all over it.

So you didn't want to get rid of Williams back then either. Guess you're not the genius you pretend to be.

What the people now criticizing the Leino move are failing to recognize is the more or less complete lack of options we had. You act like it was all about us giving up on Leino. Like Holland couldn't wait to throw the guy away, like he was sitting in his office saying "man, Leino sucks, I'm going to trade his lazy ass".

We had to trim about $2 million in cap space. (Or around 1.5 million after May was waived. ~$625k factoring in Maltby going on IR.) Even you thought we needed all the offense we could get, so moving Williams wasn't a realistic option. Miller and Eaves didn't make enough, and were playing too well besides.

So we had basically 3 'options':
1. Get rid of Leino
2. Get rid of Lebda
3. Get rid of Lilja

Considering that we needed improvements on defense and the PK, bringing Lilja back was certain. But coming back after a year off, he was an enormous question mark, so we couldn't get rid of Lebda either. So it was a choice between trying to improve the defense, or keep an underperforming Leino (who also seemed to be growing increasingly discontent here).

You can NOT judge a decision based solely on hindsight. Was it really a mistake? In the same sense as something like passing on Bure in the '89 draft was, perhaps. But we can't say how it might have worked out if Leino had stayed. Hell, he might have gotten fed up and went back to Finland for all we know. Perhaps he really isn't suited to our system. I'm not sure why you think that's such a negative thing.  Our system is complex, but also very effective. So what if every once in a while we get a player that doesn't do well here, there are plenty enough players who do. Certainly no reason to knock the most successful style in hockey (perhaps even hockey history if you factor in the Red Army teams). Maybe he wasn't the best fit with our players. We had a lot of guys that don't seem to shoot as often as they should, and Leino has the same problem...not the best recipe for success. Maybe it's the coaches. Our coach is among the best in the game, who cares if they aren't perfect for every player in the world.

So let's finally put this ridiculous thread to rest. Leino wasn't working out here, and may never have. Holland made the right deicsion at the time. So it worked out great for Philly. Who cares? You can't say that it hurt us at all, so just let it go. It's not like we wasted a 1st round pick or traded something to get him in the first place.

Ya, If the Wings would've had a first round pick they could've drafted Shea Weber, Corey Perry or Patrice Bergeron, but they probably would've have taken a small skilled player that would still be in the minors and or went back to Europe by now.  Of course they may have taken Howard still, just a round earlier.

On a side note, if Anaheim gets McIlrath like this guy mocks up, I will absolutely develop an ulcer and probably keel over and die! (which would be good news to some of you guys here, eh? )

I know the draft is a crap shoot, and Detroit isn't the only team to miss these guys, but here's an exaple of what Holland looks for instead of what he "SAYS" we need:

2003 Draft. Positrion #194 Detroit drafts Stefan Blom, #205 San Jose drafts Joe Pavelski, #226 Detroit drafts Tomas Kollar, #245 Chicago drafts Dustin Byfuglien.  But, like I said, they weren't the only ones to pass on these guys, I just wish Holland wasn't so small skilled minded when it comes to actually drafting someone.  Every year, he says when need to draft size and grit, same as July 1st, we need to get bigger and stronger.  Then he drafts Tomas Kollar when Dustin Byfuglien is sitting there.  Oh well! I guess by time the 7th and 8th round comes around you are just drawing straws as to who is left...

Do you even have any idea who those people are?

You say we shouldn't draft small, skilled players, then say we made a mistake passing up Pavelski...a small (medium anyway), skilled player.

For the record, Blom is similar size and Kollar is bigger (though not borderline obese like Buffy).

I know you're a staunch Euro hater, but to pick out a couple late round picks that happened to be successful for other teams is a retarded stretch. Completely ignoring the other hundred or so players that would fit your mold who also never made it to the NHL.

Man, if only we'd picked Vince Malts and Chris Hartsburg instead of Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

We've had a lot of success in Pav, Hank, Fischer, Franzen, Filppula, Hudler, Helm, Abdelkader, Kronwall, Ericsson, Howard, and now we should see Ritola and Kindl. Kopecky, Fleischman, Meech, and Quincey were also drafted by Holland. We also have a few decent prospects still in the system.

But you want to cry that we don't hit home runs with every 4th round and later pick. You realize that on average only about 12% of players picked in the third round or later play more than a few NHL games. 25% or so for the 2nd round, 65% for the first round. The Wings have had 8 (possibly 9) out of 63 3rd round or later picks from 1998-2006 become regular NHLers. 5 of the 11 2nd rounders have made it (and 4 of those 11 were picked later than 60th, so really 3rd rounders), 1 of 3 1st rounders (with Kindl now a second possiblilty).

That's a pretty good record.

How is it decided then? I thought it was 1-15 (the teams who didnt make the playoffs) 16-30 (the team that exit the playoffs first picks at 16, the 2nd team that exits pick 17th etc) ?
...

I believe it works like this:

SC winner = 30
Runner-up = 29
Conference runners-up = 27 & 28
Then any remaining division winners take the next 2-6 picks
After that, it goes in order by points, with the lottery winner moving up 4 spots max.

Wings had the 7th most points, putting them in the 24th spot. But Philly, Montreal (conference finalists), and Buffalo (division winner) all move behind us, putting us in 21st.

...and Filppula has always "been on the verge".

This was only Filppula's 4th full season. He did show considerable improvement in his 2nd. That improvement, and a nice contract, led a lot of fans to think he was somehow supposed to turn into an all-star while playing on the third line with almost no PP time the next year. So, even though he did improve that year, some people just looked at the lack of goals and thought of it as a disappointment. Failing to meet unrealistic fan expectations doesn't make him a disappointment.

This last year was the first time Flip was really expected to step up. Then he got stuck on the third line again to start the year, and had a significant injury. Despite that his play did improve considerably. He was easily our third best forward in the playoffs.

...  
Both Filppula and Cleary are overpaid by 40% for what they have brought to the table the past 2 seasons.  Hell Homer deserves more than either one of them, and don't give me any s*** about them being injured, Homer takes more of a beating than both of them put together.

There's more to the game than scoring. Homer scores a little more, but doesn't do any of the other things as well. Then Homer has to take a discount due to his age. Fair or not, his age is an additional risk factor that has to be considered when valuing a contract. If Homer was 27 or 30, he almost certainly would be paid more than Flip or Cleary.

Two Red Wings since the 98-99 season have started their NHL careers before the age of 20. Jiri Fischer in 98-99 at 19, who was on path to become a star defenseman, and Jiri Hudler in 2003-04 at 19, who is a top-line scoring forward just entering his prime. The last player to start his career before the age of 20 with the Wings? Martin Lapointe in 91-92. Prior to Lapointe? Keith Primeau in 90-91.

The "Bowman age" which began in 92-93 changed that a bit, as did the fact that starting in the early 90s first rounders were not necessarily guys who could step right on to the roster and contribute because the Wings picked so late most years. So a guy who can make the team under the age of 20 on a Wings team with solid depth at most positions is absolutely astounding.

Going a little far to say Happy 'made the team' as a 19 year old. He played 12 games as an injury replacement. Then 4 games the next year (technically two years later with the lockout). He didn't really make the team until '06-07. Helm being a playoff regular at 21 is more impressive.

.... Oh, and weren't the last like 3 years supposed to be "step-up seasons" for Filppula and Cleary?  

Not really. For Flip, only this last year really was, and that was derailed a bit by his injury. And he still improved.

For Cleary, I think we were happy with him as a 20 goal/40 point guy who could play in any situation. Then his goals dropped a bit, and we were hoping he'd do better this year to help replace some of the lost offense. He was baged up for most of the season, and with all the other injuries, I don't think he was too bad.

It's a lot more possible when you stop trying to run 2 scoring lines and 2 checking lines.  That's basically what we had last year, and the grit was spread too thin over the bottom 2 lines and neither was of any consequence.  One or two guys in the lineup who are more geared to scoring would be all it takes to set up three dedicated scoring lines, that brings back the offensive depth and helps run the opposing team's D-Corp more ragged.

It can be done, and I say it should be done.

....

Well, let's look at it this way.  Williams was brought in for $1.5 Million.  He got 15 points in 44 games and was invisible in the playoffs so we won't worry about that.  Just glancing through some of the free agent RW's heading to market soon, right away I find (don't groan) Maxim Afinogenov, who in comparison to Williams, played last year at $800K and played all season without serious injury and got 61 points.  Now obviously after a season like that, he's going to get a raise -- and apparently an offer from Atlanta is already on the table for him to come back -- but even supposing he goes up to Williams' $1.5 Million, I'll take him over Jason 8 days out of 7!  You throw him on the 1st/2nd line, maybe as redwingfan19 suggested you move Bert down to the third line to add more shifty offense, and with one move you're looking at a much scarier set of three lines.

We tried to have 3 scoring lines this past year. Then we got hit by the inuries. It's not like we started the season with a 4th line of May-Miller-Maltby.

What our attempt at 3 scoring lines got us Bert and Cleary on the 2nd line, Williams and a woefully underperforming Leino on the 3rd. Had Willy and Flip not gotten hurt, that third line might have broekn through and started scoring (they were playing well, just not finishing), but the 2nd line would have still been weak.

3 scoring lines in the cap era means you have to have some players performing well over their contracts. For that, you have to be lucky in FA or the draft. Not something you can really plan on.

Afinogenov was a $3m player, had a couple bad years, a lot of injury problem, and some questions about his work ethic. No one wanted to take a chance on him. Atlanta did and it paid off. We could offer him $1.5 and he'd most likely laugh at us. He will probably get back close to $3. Prospal was another guy no one seemed to want that turned into a bargain. You might even put Bert in that group.

We could try the same thing this year with Bert, and/or maybe someone like Tanguay or Chris Higgins, but you have to realize there's just as much chance for moves like that to turn out the way Williams did.

I'd rather bring in someone like Nystrom or Asham that are more sure bets, and hopefully save some room for the deadline.

...In other news, how in God's name is Alligator due for a raise?  The guy led (and still does) the playoffs in penalty minutes, is a minus player, and contributed a measly 6 points. I never understood the love for this guy. Oh, I'm sorry, he "sometimes tries to hit things". We might as well have kept Downey then and gave him a raise....at least Downey freakin fought. Man o man I scratch my head at this stuff sometimes. ...

I'm fairly sure that under the terms of the CBA, he's due a small increase up to roughly 890k.  Hopefully that would be the extent of it, for now.

Automatic raises are for qualifying offers, but we could sign him for less if he agreed to it. Also, I believe the raise is based off actual salary from the last year ($710k in this case). That would mean a 5% raise to ~$745.

That said, he's a good young player that should develop into a solid 3rd liner. Good defensively, decent offensive potential, pretty good size, not slow, likes to hit, will drop the gloves on occasion. (Funny that you complain about his penalties, then praise Downey for fighting. 26 of Abby's penalty minutes were either fights or scrums sticking up for teammates. Only one of those penalties resulted in an opposing PP. And that was late in a game we were losing 5-1.)

$900k-1M would be a good price for him.

You mean the exact thing I already said?  My issue is with people who have the Stevie Yzerman of today confused with the Steve Yzerman of 5 years ago... I really don't see how your sarcasm applies to me.  I'm the one saying that Stevie is thinking of Tampa first.  

The Wings don't owe Tampa GM Yzerman anything.  

If he's going to play hardball and try to poach from the Wings they shouldn't treat him any different than any other hostile executive.

My whole point was that these tactics are hostile business tactics-- there's no possible way to deny it.  I hope Holland gives no quarter.

And for the record I'm assuming scouts and capologists have contracts since Holland, Nill and the rest of the upper management is signed to fixed term contracts.

No, they don't owe Yzerman anything. But they do owe current employees the courtesy of allowing them to get better jobs. We have no right to hold people back. Contracts or no, refusing to allow our people to pursue better opportunities would be a '******' move, and would likely ensure that those people left when their contracts (if they have them) are up anyway.

You're the one getting hung up on it being Yzerman. It's no more 'hostile' a tactic than it was for Vinik to offer Yzerman the GM position in the first place. Were you bitching about that? Were you bitching when the Sharks 'poached' Mclellen? This is no different. We're not doing Yzerman a favor, we're showing some respect for our current employees, as any decent organization would.

I have been flirting with this topic all year round. We just look washed up, I'd hate to say it but we do. It's hard to be optimistic.

So what we get a greedy, tiny player easy to push off the puck...? woopety doo.

Truth is:
Lidstrom is good, but isn't getting any younger and has shown wear.
Rafalski's game is fading and isn't worth his pay.
If Zetterberg puts up numbers again like last year, between his injuries and lack of desire I'd say trade him... sorry fanboys
If Franzen has anymore concussions the smart move would to be trade damaged goods while you still have value.
Howard Choked in the playoffs, good games sure. He also had some bad one's, too inconsistent.
Too much dead weight on the roster from loyalty (Draper, Maltby, Osgood)
Kronwall has been lackluster the last two years, and is injury prone.
Don't even get me started on this one; DAN CLEARY DOESN'T DESERVE HIS CONTRACT I'm sure he'll be out another 50 games with some type of injury next season, get him to waive his NTC and ship him out please.
Lebda must go
Meech must go
We're too old and slowing down


This team will not go far next year, IF they make the playoffs honestly... They look alot like the Pistons do right now, great for years but dynasty came to an end.. the salary cap is causing this.

With a management philosophy like that you'd be overhauling the roster every year. Great way to suck, but much less effective as a way to build a Cup team.

Yes, Nick and Rafi are getting older. That happens. Trade core players, both of whom have friendly cap hits, and both of whom have a history of strong playoff performance? Give up on a Calder nominee after a somewhat poor playoff in his first time? Get rid of his hall of fame caliber mentor (who has one year left on a rather cheap contract)? Kronwall too would be tough to replace at his money. Cleary is one of our more versatile players, had a great playoff a couple years ago. I'm not in love with his contract, but it's not that bad either. He can still be a very valuable player. His injury problems haven't been near as bad as you suggest.

How would you propose replacing those guys?

Matby and Lebda are all but gone already. Draper only has a year left and won't likely be back afterward. Meech could likely be gone. None of those are really important moves (individually at least), nor do they represent enough money to really make a difference. They're minor roster tweaks that are already happening, not sure what you're complaining about.

I guess I understand your point, and agree to some extent. Our years of success combined with the salary cap are taking a toll. But I hardly think the situation is as grim as you seem to suggest. Not much to be excited about this year, but we won't be a bad team. Maybe not a top contender, but really any team in the playoffs has a chance if they get hot at the right time. And we still have great management and a solid core for at least a few more years. No reason to think it will be impossible to solve the problems we'll encounter.

Exactly.  

And how many millions of dollars do you think the Wings have made off of Lidstrom in his career?

This deal was made in the real world, one apparently a lot of people here don't live in.  If Nick is going to split up his family, and play another grueling year where he could get injured (like getting speared in the balls, for example), he should be compensated at or near market value for that.  

Boof****** hoo that he didn't play for millions of dollars less than he's worth.  That's not his job.  His job is to play defense, and he's proven himself to be pretty f-ing good at it.

There are a lot of teams in the league who would've fallen all over themselves to get a 40 year old Lidstrom in their lineup.  They probably have already worked out the math on how many more wins that'd get 'em in a season.

And it's not our job to nominate the guy for sainthood because he's a good hockey player.

Here's the bottom line. Nick certainly had a lot of influence in determining his salary. He could have hurt the team by asking for more, he could have helped us improve by taking less. No matter what he decided, it wouldn't likely have much (if any) impact on his long term financial security. What he chose to do was pretty much the minimum needed in order to essentially stay the same.

That disappoints me. I had hoped he was better than that. I don't hate him, or think he's a greedy prick. I'm still happy he came back and I'll still miss him when he does finally retire. I still appreciate everything he's done in the past. I realize he'll likely still be one of the premier defensemen in the league this year. I'm not asking anyone else to dislike him, nor suggesting we shouldn't retire his number when he's done. I know he wasn't obligated to take a huge discount. I know he had every right to take what he did.

But he could have done more for the team; it wouldn't have hurt him any to do it; and he chose not to. I have every right to be disappointed by that.