Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco is close. Plus Weiss possibly, Mantha is coming. The Wings have cap space too. It's not just about Franzen this season, but the likely steeper decline to follow in years to come. Lose the buyout after this summer and then you are just stuck with Franzen.
You're reaching and also changing the scope of the argument. Nyquist is not as good as Franzen. Tatar is way behind. Jurco is no where near close. Mantha has yet to play a pro game. Weiss, who knows.
Maybe all those guys will be better within a few years, maybe we'll sign a better UFA or make a trade. But right now, we have two forwards who are better than Franzen.
Might as well say Datsyuk doesn't belong in the NHL because in 5 years we'll likely have 14 forwards better than him.
To debate the value of Franzen is fine, but to come on here and deny that Franzen has anxiety issues that yes he has, Holland has, his teammates, and every writer that covers the RW's all talk about makes you look a little naive or very new to the RW's team. These issues have been going on for years and have been talked about by EVERYONE for years. This is not something new.
Really? Everyone's been talking about it for years?
I'd wager that 95% of the people here hadn't even heard mention of it until this year, and even most of those that read the 2009 article the speculation is based on had probably forgotten about it.
The whole thing started because Franzen gave a cryptic answer when asked about his injury, and some dips*** writer dug up a 4+ year old translated interview of Franzen talking about the social anxiety he dealt with early in his career in Sweden. Your assertion that his issues are affecting his game or causing him to miss time is 100% speculation.
When I see "untouchable" next to the name of any prospect, I have to roll my eyes. I'm sorry, but just take a look at draft history from even the last 5-10 years. Check the first 5 names or so, and you'll see some serious to moderate (Schenn brothers) success... then it gets spotty.
For my money, untouchable is the 20-25 year old player who can eat up 25 minutes on the back-end and look comfortable, or the kid scoring 30 goals at that age, or playing 50 games between the pipes and putting up respectable numbers. Potential is potential. "Being the best thing to happen Detroit since" is a relative statement, because there's much better than Mantha out there. Kid's value is at a high right now - If you can package him for someone with a proven track record in their early to mid 20's... why in the world wouldn't you do it?
That's like saying, "If you can trade 3500 lbs of metal and plastic for a new car...".
You can't. You can't even if you "package" it with 5 tons of crap either. You want a proven young player you're going to have to add a lot. Look at the Ryan trade. He's not even a great goal scorer and was already 26. Went for a Mantha-level prospect, plus another good prospect, plus a 1st.
Aside from maybe a few overzealous fans here, no one is anointing him the second coming. And I think you and Dickie are over-valuing his trade value just as much as they are over-valuing his potential. His value may be higher than it's been in the past, but I'd say it's unlikely as high as it will get. Even moderate success in GR (or with the Wings) would move him up.
Obviously, no one is literally untouchable. I assume when anyone says that it just means they don't believe said player would bring a worthy return. For me, Mantha, Sheahan, Sproul, Mrazek, and Pulkkinen are untouchable right now. Their skillsets are mostly unique in our prospect pool (Pulks is a little redundant). You'd have to really blow me away with an offer to get any of them.
Buppy - The offer for Hudler was there, Holland offered the then RFA somewhere around $3M-ish, and Hudler declined and opted for Russia, then the arbitrator ruled that Hudler would get $2.9M-ish IIRC. Look it up and get the facts instead of just attacking somebody. Just Google it. "Holland offers RFA Hudler contract" its right there. My cut and paste isn't working or I would paste the link and the quote, but Holland offered Hudler a 5 year $15M contract...so, no I am not just making things up. If Holland had said see ya to Hudler, then he could have possibly added that $3M to a better offer for Hossa...
Like I said, even if the offer was real the cap space wasn't there. He could have offered Hudler $300M. No matter what, keeping Hossa would have meant losing someone else on the team (and Hudler wasn't, the first year).
Fact is, Hossa has produced 28g and 72p over Franzen in 5 years. 5-6g, 14-15p per year for an extra $1.3M in cap and two extra years of length. Franzen is far, far closer to Hossa than you or many others would like to believe.
No one is debating that great teams are great at scoring and at defense. We are not a great team, nor are we great at O or at D. The question is, which do we fix first, and at what price?
Actually the question was, "What is more important". My answer to that being, "Neither".
As to your follow-up, the obvious answer is we try to fix both. But opportunities are limited, so you take what you can get. You try to avoid weakening one for the other, but we have solid depth at both forward and defense, so we can afford either if a good opportunity arises. Given our specific situation, I think we need more immediate help on defense, but in the not too distant future we'll need forwards. I think it's a little too soon to get aggressive.
Keep most of the prospects and kids, though giving up a couple wouldn't kill us. Of the vets, only Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Kronwall have significant certain trade value, and none would bring enough immediate return to offset their loss. I doubt any would bring even enough future return to make it worth it either. Franzen, Weiss, and Helm might have value, depending on how their health and performance holds up next year. Either way, I don't think there's much chance at any major moves right now. Maybe at the deadline next year, or more likely at the 2015 draft. Of course by then, depending on how the kids are looking, we might not need any moves.
My god who cares about a streak. It's cool don't get me wrong but what's better.
Braves winning the division like 20 straight years AND INE CHAMPIONSHIP or the Yankees who have like 27.
You don't play sports to JUST make the playoffs. It's all about the championships. Now if your Columbus and you make playoffs...ya you can be excited cause you haven't experienced it before.
I'm a wings steelers tigers and michigan fan. It's championship or bust every year. I watched michigan lose their streak. Ya it sucked...but who cares EVERYONE experiences a transition at some point. CHAMPIONSHIP OR BUST.
You act like trying to make the playoffs and trying to build a championship team are mutually exclusive goals. They're not. Nor, I think, was our intent this season to just make the playoffs. Getting into the playoffs means you have a chance to do something more. Maybe not a good chance, or even a realistic chance, but a chance nonetheless.
And it's not like we traded away Crosby either. Jarnkrok was a good prospect, may yet turn out to be a great player, but thus far there's nothing that looks particularly special about him. He's out of waiver exemptions after next year. Sheahan, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Mantha, and Athanasiou are all on a similar timetable, and all look to have similar or better potential. Add that to Tatar and Nyquist, plus all the vets, grinder types, and possible UFA additions... there wasn't room for everyone anyway. Still isn't really. Jarnkrok was not our future, just a possible piece of it.
Regardless how Jarnkrok turns out, or what happens with Legwand, the move made sense given our situation at the time. Giving up a good prospect for a temp isn't ideal, but neither was our situation. Maybe we overpaid, maybe we could have gotten the same results calling up Jarnkrok, maybe he'll turn out to be a star... but none of that really matters.
I have mixed feelings about your post. Sure, fans overreact when their team looks as bad as we have the last couple of games. And obviously, the sky is not falling. You're right, we've made the playoffs a whole bunch of times and in general we're lucky we never have to watch a bottom feeder.
But you also make it seem like we should pat ourselves on the back for making the playoffs as if that's some victory in and of itself. It would be...for the Lions. But given that the Red Wings ALWAYS make it, there's some expectation that periodically they'll challenge for a Cup, or make it to the finals, or even make it to the conference finals...none of which we've done since 2009.
If it's an overreaction to assume that everything about the team sucks and the Wings are terrible, its an equally bad under-reaction to assume that nothing is wrong with the team, and if not for a few less injuries we'd have been competing for Cups these last few years.
I guess all I'm saying is that if you look at it objectively, there is some reason to worry that the team is trending in the wrong direction (e.g. barely making the playoffs, stinking up their first round series' against Nashville and now Boston, blowing 3-1 series leads, etc.)
We should pat ourselves on the back. Making the playoffs last season and even more so this season, is a victory. We should be proud of our playoff performance last year, even if we did "blow" a 3-1 lead. Even if we lose in 5 to the PT winners, a team that won a Cup a few years ago and went to the finals last year, it's nothing to be ashamed of.
Having some pride in what we've been able to accomplish during the beginning of our transition is not the same as assuming nothing is wrong with the team. Nothing lasts forever, and that includes being content with marginal achievements. Saying, "we did well this year, all things considered", is in no way, shape, or form a statement that we should never try or expect to improve.
You say "trending in the wrong direction", but by definition you have to go down before you can head back up. To suggest that we should already be getting back to the top is saying we never should have fallen in the first place, or at least that our floor should have been a top 7 overall finish and a 2nd round loss. The expectations most people have for this team are ridiculously unrealistic. We've barely even declined (at least relative to what "decline" means for the rest of the league), and by the look of our kids this year we may already be moving back up (at least in the short-term). It's actually pretty damn impressive, and it's a shame more people can't appreciate it.
BTW not sure how we let this happen, but Goodrow signed with the SJS.
Second-tier scorer as an over-ager in junior. Also didn't get a contract from Carolina or the Rangers. I see no reason to care. We already have Tvrdon covering the "looks like he could be pretty good but probably won't" spot.
Personally I think that Dats, Abby, Alfie could play the Bergeron line even. I also think the Kid Line would give the Krejci line fits because of it's speed and because Sheahan and Jurco are the biggest and strongest options we've got to play against Lucic and Iginla. If we could get a wash out of those two and free up a Franzen, Legwand, Nyquist line to play against their third line, I think we could beat them. And it goes without saying that Miller, Helm, and Glendening would eat their fourth line alive/provide for defensive relief with defensive zone starts for the kids/augmenting the Kindl-Lashoff pairing.
If Dats and Alfie can play like Dats and Alfie (or better yet even, slightly younger versions of themselves) I'd say so, and Abby might be able to keep the worst of Marchand in check. The speed of the kids probably would cause some problems, I just don't think they have the defensive chops to keep up. If they got enough help it might work. Mule-Leggy (or Helm)-Gus should be able to beat their 3rd line.
No matter how we juggle the lines I think we should be able to get the better of their bottom 6. So if we can beat or break even with their top 6, it should offset their advantage on defense. Then it's a matter of Jimmy vs Rask.
Typed out, that last line looks more disheartening than it does in my head.