I'm not acting like I'm being repressed. There's actually been some good conversations going on in here, like between GMR and mindfly.
Speaking only for myself, sure it would've been nice to pick up Asham for 700k. But I'm not saying he's getting the Wings to the Cup or it's an either or situation with Modano. It's all the people jumping into the thread who've made it that. There's a pretty large gap between saying you'd want a player on the team and that player would make the difference in winning the Cup.
But that's a common argument for shooting it down. "xxxx player is not going to be the difference to get the Wings to the Cup."
And the prevailing argument has also become "do you know more than Holland?" Of course none of us know more about running a franchise than Holland. But it's about being a fan of the team. Analyzing and overanalyzing every move and throwing our two cents in. That's why this forum exists.
The Draper thing was really an aside which has derailed this thread even more. As I said, I'm a big Draper fan, but Holland was overly optimistic about his contributions to the team when he signed that contract. Or maybe he didn't have enough faith in kids like Helm to replace him.
Really? Prevailing argument? Heaten used that argument once, and you've been harping on it ever since. Mostly, it's been a discussion on the relative merits of Modano and Asham, scoring and grit/fighting. You now seem intent on proving that Holland can make mistakes, as if that proves that this particular move (or non-move in this case) is a mistake.
Now unfortunately, this seems to be devolving into just another enforcer debate. Oh well.
The Wings don't need a vocal leader who doesn't contribute much on the ice. That's called the coaching staff.
yes, I think Draper's 4 points in the 08 playoffs are what put us over the top. He certainly contributed more then than he does now. But I'm not quickly forgetting. If you read my post, I said his contract fit his contributions in 08. But you're trying to justify his current pay for things he's done in the past. That's a pretty good example of why it's a bad contract. They signed him for too much or too long.
You're grasping at straws now with nonsensical arguments. Did his contract keep the Wings from making it to the SCF? who knows? how could you ever prove that? Maybe it kept them from winning their second Cup? prove it didn't. The point isn't to pick specific players that his contract has prevented us from getting. That's all speculation. I don't see how you can look at his role on the team these last few seasons and think he's worth that money.
But god forbid someone criticize Red Wings management. This thread started not even so much as criticism, but more, "would've been nice to have him" until all the cheerleaders jumped in.
Actually, it started with 'this sucks' and it's 'worse than getting Williams instead of Prospal'. Little over the top.
And no one's saying management is above criticism. Some of us just think Modano is better for the team than Asham would be. Stop acting like your being repressed. We all have our opinions, all we're doing is discussing them. (Though I would say, as a general rule, Holland does a lot better managing the roster than any of us would, but that's beside the point.)
In regards to Draper, I'll say that it's easy to judge a contract in hindsight. Sure, we could probably replace his value for half (or less) the cost, and possibly use that savings to improve somewhere else. His off-ice contributions might not be missed. Nor, I think, would our reputation for treating our players well have suffered had we not resigned Draper (or given him less money, or term). Oh well. No roster in any sport has ever been perfect. Unless you can point out some example that would make us a notably better team without Draper's contract, then it's pointless to complain about it. But I don't think you can get a difference-maker with his salary. At best you're looking at a marginal improvement in the bottom lines. Wow.
Draper has been a valuable member of this franchise for many years, we wouldn't be that much better off without him, so why complain? It's not like we spent $5.6M on a FA goalie whose resume was basically one good 13 game stretch (and we're now risking our reputation by ungraciously disposing of him).
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Sorry, I don't normally do the grammar cop thing, but I'm pretty sure there's only 136 h's in hysterical laughter. I wouldn't say anything, but I think the error really detracts from your point.
I agree. Asham would've been a nice little addition and for cheap.
But he's a guy who was had for cheap that would've made a team better. That seems worth commenting on. This place has become such a Red Wings cheerleading camp sometimes. Talking about this s*** doesn't mean you hate the Wings or think Holland is a bad GM. It's a hockey forum.
Do you really think taking Asham instead of Modano would make this team any better? Talking about it is one thing. Saying it sucks and is worse than Williams is another. Even at the most optimistic, you can't possibly consider Asham anything other than a lateral move at this point. And that's only if you consider his fighting ability to be valuable.
Since when has a solid 3rd line center been someone who can't check and has never been known as a great defensive forward?
I know we have other forwards that can play defense, but it'd be nice to have a 3rd line with more than one defensive forward. Modano will be asked to change his whole mindset around and take a complete back seat on this team in a role he's not all that familiar with.
It might work or it may not. Don't know why everyone thinks it'll be a success without reservations. You do realize that he's not a star anymore?
Secondary scoring is what Modano's role will be, same as it was last year in Dallas. (And he'd been transitioning to that role for a couple years prior.) He's not expected to be a star. He was successful on the third line with crap linemates in Dallas. That's why people think he can do just as well or better here with Hudler and Cleary.
Sure it would be nice to have a defensive forward centering the third line. It would be nice to have a team full of Selke candidates who would also compete for the Art Ross. But we don't need it. A third line doesn't have to be a checking line. The other three lines are all capable of playing excellent defense. Besides, the one thing you keep ignoring is that Asham isn't any better than Modano defensively. He's never been known for his defense either. He's never really been a feature on any PK. He's not even that prolific of a hitter. If you're so concerned about defense, why would you want Asham over Miller? Miller is much younger than Asham (something you also seem to value), has similar offensive ability (and maybe some untapped potential), hits just as much, and is far better defensively. Yet you'd take Asham. What is it Asham does that Miller doesn't? Oh, but that's not why you want Asham...
I agree that our third line would be good enough without Modano, but it's also better with him. And I believe that improvement is much better then we'd get from Asham's mediocre fighting skills. Our third and fourth lines are better and harder to play against with Modano than they would be with Asham.
I was waiting for that. And I just mentioned above what 4th liners we shouldn't have signed. There's nothing stupid about my complaint. You just don't see it my way that's all.
Draper was already signed. Nothing could have been done about it this year. Neither Maltby nor Downey will be regular members of this team. At most they will get contracts to play in GR.
We already have to get rid of one of Miller, Ritola, Eaves, Helm, or Abby. So to sign Asham, we'd have to lose a 2nd (or not sign Modano, who adds much more to the team). Then, to have him actually play, you have to take a 3rd out of the lineup.
Not saying Asham would make the team worse (unless you take him over Modano), but he wouldn't make the team any better either. That's why I think it's stupid. It's irrelevant.
That makes no sense. It should be the other way around.
I'm actually starting to believe that Asham must have turned the Wings down, because Holland wouldn't actually be so stupid as to sign only enforcers, but not guys who can do more than just fight.
I think it's more a case of us having enough (too many even) 4th liners already. We DO prioritize skill over everything else, but we also usually keep a spot reserved for a tough guy. This year, all those spots were filled already.
Nothing to get upset about. We have a solid 4th line, maybe one of the best in the league. Asham wouldn't have made us any better.
I love how you conveinatly leave out Miller's 14 game stint with Tampa in which he recorded NO points and was a -3. Makes you wonder how much playing on a good team with a better record influences/motivates a player, huh? In addition, despite all of Pisani's injuries and inferior linemates his stats prorated would be mearly 3 points less of Miller's total production. When you factor in ice time and linemates, Pisani would almost have certainly surpassed Miller's production.
Couple that with the fact that Pisani's goals agaisnt average per 60 min of pk time was FAR BELOW that of both Miller's and Eave's, despite being on a DRASTICALLY worse team, and it becomes harder and harder to argue that Miller outplayed him enough to warrent that much more money last year.
You are looking at simply the stat line, instead of situational statistics such as quality of oppositsiton faced (hint... Pisani was the highest on the Oilers), and quality of linemates + Ice time. I suggest you dig deeper into the stats before you throw out ones that our clearly unfair to compare.
Pisani averaged more ice time than both Miller and Eaves. And while Edmonton was certainly terrible, neither Eaves nor Miller were playing with particularly great linemates all the time. May, Maltby, Draper, Helm, Abby, Williams, Leino...not that much different from Horcoff, O'Sullivan, Moreau, Gagner, etc. Miller may have played a bit with the likes of Flip and Cleary, but you're acting like he spent the year on the top line with Pav and Hank or something.
And I'm not sure what kind of math you're doing, but Pisani was on the ice for 10 PPGA in 91:42 (~6.5/60 min). Eaves was 13 in 147:54 (5.3), Miller was 7 in 120:31 (3.6).
Pisani is 33, hasn't played more than 56 games in the past three seasons. He had one decent season and a great playoff, and has been going downhill ever since.
Miller is 26, coming off his first full season in the NHL, and makes only $150k more.
Eaves is also 26, just had somewhat of a bounce-back season after two down years, and makes only $250k more.
Not saying Pisani is terrible, or that it isn't a good signing. He's fine for a 4th line role. But I'd much rather have the younger guys without potentially problematic diseases, even if they do make a little more money.
As unfair as it is teams play differently in front of different goalies. Goalies instill confidence in players and maybe Hasek gave the team the ability to go out and produce offensively while when Cujo was in net they had to play a more defensive style. Whether that's true or not I don't know - Im speculating. But it's similar to this past season. When Osgood was in net and letting in goals the D would have to tighten up. WHen Howard was in net and making the saves he should the Wings could go out and do what they had to in the offensive zone.
It's not always about quantity of saves - it's more about quality sometims.
Like Eva said, you can't really blame the way the team plays on the goalie, especially in Cujo's case when he played very well. We were putting up 30-35+ shots a game, allowing ~20-30. Those aren't numbers suggesting the team was in a defensive shell. Likewise, a goalie that needs to be protected doesn't post a .935 save percentage.
6 goals on 171 shots in 4 games against Anaheim.
3 goals (shutout twice) on 127 shots in 4 losses to Calgary. In the last two games against Calgary, Cujo made 63 of 65 saves.
Blaming Jospeh at all for those losses is retarded.
Hitting is not the same as grit. Note that Philadelphia, which is a gritty team to the point of some here saying they were goonish, ranked 14th in hits.
Sure hitting has something to do with the other, but when people are wanting the Wings to be gritty, I don't think that means they're just wanting them to run around and hit guys more. If you look through any of the grit threads most of the talk isn't about hitting.
That blog is bad statistical analysis used to prove an idea the author already seemed to have in mind. If you asked anyone is there a direct correlation between hits and points, I think most people would say no.
He mentions some anomalies, but doesn't explain situations like with LA who was 2nd in hits and 27th in points in 2009, then only dropped three places to 5th in hits but jumped all the way up to 9th in points. There's too many other variables outside his oversimplified premise for it to mean anything.
I think 'other variables' was the premise.
It's not really a point that needed to be made, since as you said most people already know that hitting does not mean winning.
There may be a vocal crowd that preaches hitting an aggressiveness, but I think it's meant more in a 'play harder' way then a 'that's the key to victory' way, if you get my meaning. People also complain about turnovers, slowness, dumb penalties, missing open shots, etc. I'm sure if you asked people in Columbus what kind of players they'd want to add, more skill would be a priority. That doesn't mean they shouldn't expect their current players to play harder, finish their checks, clear the crease, etc... All in all, a pretty dumb article.
His defense has dropped significantly and his play with and without the puck in the defensive zone is abysmal. He is probably our 4th best defenseman with regards to overall ability. He is overrated by too many people.
His one on one defense hasn't really ever been great, and has fallen off since the lockout took away his New Jersey-style grabbing, but he's generally sound positionally, skates and moves the puck well, and usually makes good decisions. He blocks shots, clogs passing and shooting lanes, has a pretty good stick, and can usually at least force people to the outside.
He's a bit turnover prone and a little too old/small/weak to handle a fast/strong forward by himself. He's not a shutdown defender (even though he's used as one), but he's much better than abysmal. Much better than you give him credit for.