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Buppy

Member Since 14 Feb 2009
Offline Last Active Jul 12 2014 03:03 PM
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#2001711 Bertuzzi Signs 2 Year Deal

Posted by Buppy on 20 June 2010 - 03:27 PM

Kotalik makes 3 mil less points then Bert last year

Chris Neil 2 Mil

Jarko Ruttu the same as Bert last year

Reinprecht 2 mil, less points then Bert last year

Clutterbuck 1.4 mil

Steve Bernier 2 mil

Kris Kunitz makes almost 4 mil.

All these guys put up less points then Bert last year but have similar or much higher contracts. Bert at 1.5 is a huge bargain. Guys like CLutterbuck Mayers and Ruutu making pretty much the same as Bert kinda shows that market value for guys like that is right around there. I think its fair to say Bert market value is higher then guys like this.


Again, it's not so much about Bert being worth the money so much as we didn't need him. He adds next to nothing to this team. Half the guys you're comparing him to offer much more than just scoring, and some are significantly younger. I would much rather have Clutterbuck than Bert, and he'll earn almost 600k less than Bert this year. Neil also adds much more, and is still a few years younger (though I wouldn't really want him at his price either). I'd probably take Ruutu @ 1.3 over Bert too, though I'd prefer someone younger and cheaper. Bernier isn't great, but he's only 25 and at least he hits people.

We didn't need another 3rd rate scorer at any price, much less spending $2 mil on a 35 year old for two years.


#2001679 Nice little article on our 2010/11 lines...

Posted by Buppy on 20 June 2010 - 02:20 PM

A broken jaw caused him to miss 19 games two seasons ago. It's difficult to play the hard nosed style he does that made him successful while ou are recovering from a broken jaw, full face helmet or not. I'd call that a season with a significant (enough)injury.


That was the '07-08 season. 3 years ago. Two years ago he played 74 games. I don't recall the actual injury, but it was early in the year. He was pretty much healthy for the majority of the season.

...
And Franzen on the same line as Holmer seems to make Holmer almost redudant.
...


Franzen and Homer are nothing alike. Bert is much closer to Homer than Mule is.


#2001676 Zenon Konopka

Posted by Buppy on 20 June 2010 - 02:12 PM

{names}
These guys aren't "useless" just cause they don't score goals.So the argument that "players who only fight and can't score or skate don't have a place in the NHL" is invalid because looking at the list above,they obviously do.


To be fair, there are also plenty of non-fighters in the league that don't really belong here.


#2001233 Bertuzzi Signs 2 Year Deal

Posted by Buppy on 18 June 2010 - 05:42 PM

The point you continue to miss is that Bert is not a mediocre scorer for his price tag. Yes, his scoring isn't what it once was, but his production is worth well more than his tag. The players you mentioned aren't in the same boat.

Bert is not a first-rate player, but he's not a third-rate player either. As far as adding a better player at the deadline, adding a player in what would've been that pro-rated price range could just as likely cost too much in regards to prospects/picks. While GR isn't bone-dry, its most certainly not abundant with the type of talent teams are calling Kenny and inquiring about. The Wings draft players for *their* system, which happens to be quite different than most teams.

The bottom line is re-signing Bert was the safe bet, because we could end up with nothing if prices are too high on trade deadline day.
...


... Bert's played the minutes he has because of the overwhelming injury bug that hit Detroit this season. Couple that with the fact that those guys were playing with half the Grand Rapids roster and its reason enough as to why everyone's numbers were down this season. Next year the Wings will have Bert in his second full season and much more familiar with their system. He's proven he can stay healthy and his confidence should be higher than it has been in years. He'll be playing a more balanced role on the team and is going to be able to put the puck in the net both on the second or third line given the roster stays healthy. For his *ability* and all the aforementioned there's no reason Bert can't duplicate and improve on last season and that would make his $1.9375 million cap hit beyond worth it in comparison to other players around the league making the same.

Again, Nystrom can still be had for the bottom 6 if Kenny truly believes he'll benefit this club. I tend to agree that the Wings would benefit from the Drake-type player Kenny promised us but I'm not about to throw Bert under the bus, as if seemingly blaming him for now not having the room to add one of those types.
...


I've admitted on several occasions that Bert was a bargain last season, and that it's not a bad price for someone of his ability. My point is that it doesn't matter. We didn't need a 'bargain' or an eigth potential top 6 forward when we would have been just fine with just a 4th liner grinder and a bunch of extra cap space.

But I'll address the bargain aspect anyway. Something you can't ignore is that there's only so much ice time to go around. Only so many spots in the top 6. Pav and Hank can't play with everyone. Everyone can't get 3 minutes of PP time.

Hudler could score 70 points, Flip could get 60, Bert, Homer, and Cleary could get 50. But they won't. Not all of them at least. Lack of ice time and opportunity WILL mean that someone doesn't get the numbers they're capable of. How much of a bargain is Bert going to be if he gets stuck on the third line and only puts up 13 goals and 22 points? How about another 40 point season from Flip? Or 15 goals from Cleary? Or Hudler? Whether you want to admit it or not, PP time and the quality of their linemates will play a big role in the production of all those players. What good is getting Bert at a minor discount when it means we're overpaying for Flip's production?

All anyone can say in favor of Bert is 'bargain'. But he hasn't scored one point yet, so you have no idea if he will be a bargain or not. You can't just add his full potential without considering the opportunities he'll cost others, nor could you realistically expect him to fulfill his potential from a dimished role. And at this stage, you can't expect improvement either, at least nothing substantial. At best, we could expect similar numbers if he plays another full season on the top lines. Even at that, his presence alone would be costing someone else like Flip or Cleary an opportunity for increased production. And assuming that anyone's production would improve by being moved to the third line is preposterous.

Bert, as an individual, may turn out to be 'worth' his contract. But in terms of his impact on the team, I really can't see it improving the team in any meaningful way. Adding Bert gives a little extra depth in case of injuries. But that's about the only positive I see. But I can also see it coming back to hurt us by limiting our other options. He costs us the opportunity for a much bigger improvement later in the season, and possibly costs us a valuable grinder.

You say we could still add Nystrom or someone similar, but I don't really see it. We're running out of space very quick, and that's assuming a full $2 million increase in the cap. People are expecting minimal raises for Helm and Abby, which is far from certain. A defenseman of any kind of quality is going to cost a decent chunk. If we want someone like Nystrom it could mean we have to sacrifice someone like Eaves or Ritola. And while getting a top end player at the deadline wouldn't be guaranteed, it wouldn't be impossible either. There's always a good number of players available, many being just salary dumps to be had for bargain prices. Nor would we necessarily have to target the best players. A couple mid-tier players could also help considerably more than Bert likely would, and might not cost much in trade. Furthermore, we might not even need to add anything.

Again, I just think Kenny missed the mark on this one. Our top 6 (at least what I expect to be our top 6) lacks speed. We still don't have as many true goal scorers as we should. We lack a tough crease-clearing defenseman. We have a question mark in goal. We're heavily reliant on againg players. And most importantly, our options for addressing any of those are pretty limited for the next two years. Bert doesn't solve any of those problems, and barely even helps the goal scoring. At the very least, we could have had the opportunity to solve a couple of those via trades this year, even if only temporarily. Maybe none of those things will turn out to be real problems. We can hope at least. Unfortunately, that's all we can do.


#2001160 Good news for the Euro haters

Posted by Buppy on 18 June 2010 - 02:26 PM

Hmmmm, lets see I joined in August 2003 and have over 3200 posts, you just joined last March and have 56 posts, now I am not calling you a troll just because you just joined, but my stats alone say that I am not a troll here, there may be a lot of folks who don't agree with my opinions, which I think is great, what kind of forum would this be if everyone held hands and sang koom-by-ya together? We love difference of opinions here, that is what makes this place so great! And if you read my post, I said I would like to see more gritty North American players, that is not saying I am against European players, Fedorov is my all time favorite player, but just because some of us don't like the players like Hudler, we are haters. I do not call the folks who prefer hudler style players North American haters, do I?

Also, there is a difference between saying "You hate European's" and "You're a Euro-Hater?" :blink: Uh.... is your real name John Kerry?


I think it has more to do with the fact that you specify 'gritty North American' as opposed to simply 'gritty'. It suggests that if there were two equally gritty players, one being Euro and the other NA, you would prefer the NA, based solely on nationality. Your stereotyping of Euros also lends to that.

If you're going to make generalizations, you have to live with the consequences. In this case, it means people assuming you have an anti-Euro bias.

And there is a world of difference in those two statements. The second implies the slang form of 'hater', rather than literal 'hate'.

And McIlrath will never be Pronger. Not even close. He'd be lucky if he could get close to Chara level.


#2000984 Bertuzzi Signs 2 Year Deal

Posted by Buppy on 17 June 2010 - 11:44 PM

They're all grinders who won't score anywhere near 20 goals. NFM summed it up fairly well. I quoted his post in response to your original.

And yet you're arguing that these younger players who you feel are better than Bert will be cheaper than he is. Bravo. This is just like people arguing that other teams would want to pick up our garbage in return for good dividends; they bash the players they don't like---i.e. Lebda, Meech, etc.---and want them traded, and then spend time going over the good qualities of those players that would supposedly make them attractive to other teams.



We need all the scoring we can get. This was made obvious last year. Bertuzzi, even with the raise, is a steal compared to comparable players in the league. Now, consider he's had a confidence-building, healthy year where he made a positive impact on a team, in an environment that welcomed him and a fanbase that overall has accepted him. I think all that adds to the potential to have another good year next year as he gets more comfortable in his role and in the city and with the fans.

Not to mention he'll have a lot better talent to work with.


With the return of Hudler and the odds favoring a much healthier lineup, the offense should already be much better than it was last season. Add to that the fact that as long as we are healthy, someone like Bert or Flip is going to be on the third line, and missing out on PP time, and thus not scoring up to their full potential; then the difference in offense between someone like Nystrom and Bert is negligible. 5-6 goals isn't going to mean anything.

Furthermore, you're both ignoring the main reason for not signing Bert right now; the cap savings. We had an opportunity to be ~$2 million under the cap while still icing a solid team capable of rolling four lines. The trade deadline is roughly 3/4ths of the way through the season, so that money would be worth $8 million in salary at that point. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to add someone like Semin (some rumors have him heading out of Washington) for a playoff run? Or maybe a big name defenseman? Or possibly a goalie if Howie falters and Ozzie can't pick up the slack? Or a couple extra players to shore up any weaknesses that develop?

Even if we really think we need another borderline top-6 'scorer', why not at least wait until free agency opens to explore what other options are out there? Especially considering that Bert himself said he wasn't interested in signing anywhere else. Could get a better deal? Who knows. Now we'll just have to watch what other teams can get. Bert was coming off 44 points in 66 games, and we got him for $1.5. Willy for the same after a 19g, 48 point season. After two poor years, Afinogenov signed for $800k. Prospal went for $1.1 after 19g/45 points. Even Comrie, after just one bad year, signed for $1.25. You act like it's unprecedented for someone to sign a 'bargain' deal. Signing Bert now, and for a two year deal, is essentially a statement that Holland doesn't think we can improve this group of forwards in the next two years. Unless we get a big jump in the cap, or blow up the roster, we don't even have the option of any meaningful changes, whether it turns out we need them or not.

I'm not saying this move is destroying the team or will for sure prevent us from winning anything. I love Kenny and still think he's the best in the game. But I think we had more options, and better options. I think this time he made a mistake.


#2000945 Bertuzzi Signs 2 Year Deal

Posted by Buppy on 17 June 2010 - 09:01 PM

Comrie sucks. He does not produce, he is frequently injured, and he has a terrible attitude.
Higgins was invisible this season, and he is hideous defensively.
Tanguay has been invisible for longer than this season, and he is hideous defensively.

All will still demand in the area of $2m. That's where they are.

Further, I really don't see why you're arguing that we do not need another 3rd line scorer and at the same time arguing that we should have signed a different third line scorer.


Way to ignore the other 5 guys I suggested.

But I'll admit I wasn't perfectly clear on these three guys. My point was that all of them could offer similar offensive potential, and potentially come cheaper, so if that was the direction we wanted to go, they would be better options, IMO. My preference would be one of the other guys though, hence the comment on improving the 4th line, the emphasis on Nystrom in the first post, the other players I mentioned, and the 'maybe' in front of those three.

But in regards to your points on those three:

None are any worse than Bert defensively, all take fewer penalties so that's at least a plus. Comrie and Higgins have had injury problems, but so has Bert. All of them are 5+ years younger.

Comrie scored only a few less goals than Bert in about half as many games. He made $1.25 last year, and hasn't really done anything to warrant a raise. I don't know about his attitude. He's only 3 years removed from his last 20+ goal season. (His 3rd in a row, including 1 30 goal season)

Higgins is also 3 years removed from a career best 27 goal season. (Again, it was 3 straight 20+ years) He's also been either a primary or secondary PKer everywhere he's played, so he's not 'hideous' defensively. Try looking at something other than +/-. He also hits a decent amount. He made $2.25 this past year, but after 2 sub-par seasons in a row, he might be available at a discount. We've had some success with Cleary, Miller, and Eaves, Higgins would be another project, but a decent reward if he came cheap enough. He might still command $2M+, that's part of the 'maybe'. He might be next season's Afinogenov. Just not with us.

Tanguay is only 2 years removed from 41 points in 50 games, and 3 removed from being a point+/game player. Not really a goal scorer, but I'd argue that Bert isn't any better at this stage in his career. In the past 6 years, Bert has played 382 games, and scored 92 goals (0.24/game). Tanguay has played 429, scored 120 (0.28/game). He's also better at pretty much everything else. Little chance he would come (here in particular) for less than Bert, but again you never know.

All three are younger options with similar talent, who might have been available cheaper than Bert. Again, I would have preferred just a 4th-liner, but if we really wanted to go with a scorer, we could have at least waited to see what our other options were, and if we could have gotten something similar (or better) for less. But now we're stuck with Bert for 2 years, so not only do we risk missing out on someone this year, but next year as well.


#2000764 Bertuzzi Signs 2 Year Deal

Posted by Buppy on 17 June 2010 - 12:54 PM

Many people here are more interested in screaming "omg this is a bad option" than in sharing what may have been a (realistic) better option.


Eric Nystrom + an extra million to spend at the trade deadline >>>>>>>>>> Bert
Winchester, Pyatt, Asham, Malhotra, Miller, maybe Comrie, Higgins, or Tanguay...

Good chance all of them sign for less, some significantly less so we could save a good chunk for the deadline.


#2000504 Is Filppula going to be our 3rd line center...or 1st line winger?

Posted by Buppy on 16 June 2010 - 11:40 PM

I disagree. Filppula is an average 2nd line player but a brilliant 3rd line player. We're still waiting for his break-out season instead of a break-out month. He'll have to break 41pts before you can loudly proclaim him a top six player. I'm sure he can break that barrier but the fact remains that his best season in the NHL was 40pts in 08-09.


He's not a 'brilliant' 3rd-liner either. He's a far better player with better linemates. This past season, and '08 where he spent a bunch of time with Datsyuk, and then a red-hot Franzen in the playoffs proves that.

That's the worst part of the Bert signing. It will most likely push Flip down, and take whatever PP time he was going to get. Flip isn't going to break out of anything from the third line. He couldn't with Hudler and Sammy, he won't with whomever he gets this year. We'll likely end up spending $7.5 million on a third line that scores 35 goals. I kind of hope we trade him now. He deserves a better opportunity.


#2000408 Bertuzzi Signs 2 Year Deal

Posted by Buppy on 16 June 2010 - 08:34 PM

What are you guys complaining about?

$2 million a year is nothing compared to how much guys are being overpaid around the league.


It's not a terrible price, but it's still $2 million for 2 years for a player we didn't need, and who won't help much. I know I said I wouldn't hate it, but at that price and term it sucks.

Once Helm, Abby, a 7th defenseman, and 13th forward are signed, we'll be lucky to have $500k left for deadline moves.

Also, if we're lucky and Nick comes back again, this is our teams for two more years. We'll maybe lose Draper and Ozzie, replace them with nobodies, and spend the savings on raises for Howard and Ericsson. Hooray.


#2000266 The argument for not bringing back Bertuzzi

Posted by Buppy on 16 June 2010 - 03:49 PM

You mean a stretch of 8 games in which he dominated. He had his slow parts of the season, but overall for his price he was a great value, even if you subtract his one man act which single handedly won us 3-4 games.


Hahaha. It was 3 games where he carried us on offense, even in those Jimmy was just as important or more in getting the wins. His 'slow parts' accounted for around 60 or so games. Regardless of value, 18 goals in a full season is not what you want out of your top 6.


#1997162 The Curse of Marian Hossa

Posted by Buppy on 09 June 2010 - 10:23 PM

Waaaah!


Fixed that for you.


#1995653 NHL.com Newest mock draft

Posted by Buppy on 07 June 2010 - 03:03 AM

:blink: Hmmmm, I thought I explained it well enough for even the simple minds to understand. I KNOW THE DRAFT IS A CRAP SHOOT AND YOU ARE PRETTY MUCH DRAWING STRAWS BY TIME THE 7TH AND 8TH ROUNDS GET HERE, ALSO THE WINGS WEREN'T THE ONLY ONES TO PASS THESE GUYS UP. I simply said it would be nice to have taken a chance on one or a few of those guys instead of just drafting what we always draft. And as for being a Euro hater, you couldn't be more wrong considering my favorite player of all time is Sergei Fedorov (and no I didn't become a fan after he was here, been a fan of the Wings for over 30 years.) if you don't believe me, just go research some of my post on trade day 2008, when we almost got Fedorov back, but someone didn't want him in the organization again...

I realize you consider yourself pretty knowledgeable, but I am just so used to hearing Holland say "bigger and faster and grittier" every draft ad every July 1st, only to come up with Jiri Hudler, Yuri Butsayev and the like, then pass up on people who contacts Holland first (Manny Malhotra) but decide to sign Jason Williams instead for the same money, ya I get a little angry, but hey, I am not Holland, I just wish he wouldn't say we need this and then go out and get that.

I am glad Datsyuk and Zetterberg have worked out, ya and a lot of his late round picks, but one can wish that he would gamble on that big, gritty guy once in a while cant I? Seems to me Byfuglien is doing pretty well for himself for being obese, much better than Blom or Collar. But like I said before, its a roll of the dice, how many teams in the first 6 rounds wish they had drafted Pavelski? Exactly, they were just examples of Holland only looking at a certain type of player, yet all the time saying we need a different type of player. Hell, I hope Emmerton works out, as well as Tartar. So, keep your racial implications to yourself, and if you think the USS Liberty wasn't on purpose, then talk to someone who was there...


First, I'll apologize if I'm wrong about the Euro-hate. Seems every post of yours lately speaks critically of Holland targeting 'small, skilled Euros'. I'm sure you can understand how that can be miscontrued.

But Holland does not target 'small' players. He targets skilled players. More specifically, skilled two-way players. Big or small doesn't much matter. The main reason many of them are smaller is because that's all that's usually left in the later rounds. Guys like Franzen, Kopy, Ericsson, Kindl, etc. are all on the big side. Nor does Holland really target Euros. Just with the strength of our European scouts and our typical position in the draft, he feels we'll be more successful with those picks. And it's hard to argue with our track record. Also, Pavelski is exactly the type of player that Holland does typically target. Just one that we happened to miss out on. Since he doesn't fit your argument, it really just looks like you're cherry-picking to fuel some anti-Euro agenda. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it comes off to me.

Furthermore, I think you're confusing Holland saying he wants to add some grit and/or size with a desire to add all grit and/or size. And also cherry-picking again to overlook cases where he has picked up gritty players.

Bertuzzi and May this year. Abdelkader, Stuart, Downey, Drake (not big, but gritty), Shawn Matthias, Nick Oslund, Julien Cuyer, Brian Lashoff, Landon Ferraro (like Drake, not very big, but fiesty). I'm sure there's more.


#1995648 Ville Leino Appreciation Thread

Posted by Buppy on 07 June 2010 - 01:43 AM

...
There are always options. Despite a rough season, Holland shouldn't have turned his sights right to one of our most valuable prospects.
...


This thread just seems to be excuse after excuse to justify what obviously was just a bad decision on Holland's part. He had to pick somone to go and he chose.....poorly. The quicker you guys wise up and accept it, the better. There's simply no justifying trading a guy for zilch who ends up being the star of the SCF, no matter how you look at it. And even if what some of you say is true, that he just didn't "fit into our system". How does that reflect on us and our organization? So we essentially have a system that somehow holds back and doesn't fit a guy who, on another team, would be a prime goal scorer and point producer? That doesn't sound any better.

Oh and feel free to dig up my posts from when the trade was announced. From the moment he was traded, I said it was idiotic and would come back to bite us in the ass, just like I did with Quincey and just like I said signing Williams was the worst mistake Holland could do in the offseason. I'll happily admit when I'm wrong but it's rarely the case. ....


I did dig up your one post (related to Leino at least) from the Leino trade thread...

I dunno guys.....

I see Leino having a breakout season next year (ala Quincey) and a LOT of pissed Wings fans......


While you did indeed dislike the move, that sounds a lot more like Quincey-inspired fear than actually thinking it was 'idiotic'.

I also dug up this post from you regarding possibly trading Williams...


Is it that unfathomable for a team to take on Williams and Lebda's contracts combined? With those guys you can at least make a decent selling attempt. Williams does have some skill and Lebda has speed and playoff experience.


Yes, that actually would be a nice package for some decent draft picks. Like I said though, the one thing we can't afford to do right now is shed potential offense, and shedding Williams would be doing just that. If our offense wasn't such s***, I'd be all over it.


So you didn't want to get rid of Williams back then either. Guess you're not the genius you pretend to be.

What the people now criticizing the Leino move are failing to recognize is the more or less complete lack of options we had. You act like it was all about us giving up on Leino. Like Holland couldn't wait to throw the guy away, like he was sitting in his office saying "man, Leino sucks, I'm going to trade his lazy ass".

We had to trim about $2 million in cap space. (Or around 1.5 million after May was waived. ~$625k factoring in Maltby going on IR.) Even you thought we needed all the offense we could get, so moving Williams wasn't a realistic option. Miller and Eaves didn't make enough, and were playing too well besides.

So we had basically 3 'options':
1. Get rid of Leino
2. Get rid of Lebda
3. Get rid of Lilja

Considering that we needed improvements on defense and the PK, bringing Lilja back was certain. But coming back after a year off, he was an enormous question mark, so we couldn't get rid of Lebda either. So it was a choice between trying to improve the defense, or keep an underperforming Leino (who also seemed to be growing increasingly discontent here).

You can NOT judge a decision based solely on hindsight. Was it really a mistake? In the same sense as something like passing on Bure in the '89 draft was, perhaps. But we can't say how it might have worked out if Leino had stayed. Hell, he might have gotten fed up and went back to Finland for all we know. Perhaps he really isn't suited to our system. I'm not sure why you think that's such a negative thing. Our system is complex, but also very effective. So what if every once in a while we get a player that doesn't do well here, there are plenty enough players who do. Certainly no reason to knock the most successful style in hockey (perhaps even hockey history if you factor in the Red Army teams). Maybe he wasn't the best fit with our players. We had a lot of guys that don't seem to shoot as often as they should, and Leino has the same problem...not the best recipe for success. Maybe it's the coaches. Our coach is among the best in the game, who cares if they aren't perfect for every player in the world.

So let's finally put this ridiculous thread to rest. Leino wasn't working out here, and may never have. Holland made the right deicsion at the time. So it worked out great for Philly. Who cares? You can't say that it hurt us at all, so just let it go. It's not like we wasted a 1st round pick or traded something to get him in the first place.


#1995515 NHL.com Newest mock draft

Posted by Buppy on 06 June 2010 - 08:47 PM

Ya, If the Wings would've had a first round pick they could've drafted Shea Weber, Corey Perry or Patrice Bergeron, but they probably would've have taken a small skilled player that would still be in the minors and or went back to Europe by now. Of course they may have taken Howard still, just a round earlier.

On a side note, if Anaheim gets McIlrath like this guy mocks up, I will absolutely develop an ulcer and probably keel over and die! (which would be good news to some of you guys here, eh? :lol:)

I know the draft is a crap shoot, and Detroit isn't the only team to miss these guys, but here's an exaple of what Holland looks for instead of what he "SAYS" we need:

2003 Draft. Positrion #194 Detroit drafts Stefan Blom, #205 San Jose drafts Joe Pavelski, #226 Detroit drafts Tomas Kollar, #245 Chicago drafts Dustin Byfuglien. But, like I said, they weren't the only ones to pass on these guys, I just wish Holland wasn't so small skilled minded when it comes to actually drafting someone. Every year, he says when need to draft size and grit, same as July 1st, we need to get bigger and stronger. Then he drafts Tomas Kollar when Dustin Byfuglien is sitting there. Oh well! I guess by time the 7th and 8th round comes around you are just drawing straws as to who is left...


Do you even have any idea who those people are?

You say we shouldn't draft small, skilled players, then say we made a mistake passing up Pavelski...a small (medium anyway), skilled player.

For the record, Blom is similar size and Kollar is bigger (though not borderline obese like Buffy).

I know you're a staunch Euro hater, but to pick out a couple late round picks that happened to be successful for other teams is a retarded stretch. Completely ignoring the other hundred or so players that would fit your mold who also never made it to the NHL.

Man, if only we'd picked Vince Malts and Chris Hartsburg instead of Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

We've had a lot of success in Pav, Hank, Fischer, Franzen, Filppula, Hudler, Helm, Abdelkader, Kronwall, Ericsson, Howard, and now we should see Ritola and Kindl. Kopecky, Fleischman, Meech, and Quincey were also drafted by Holland. We also have a few decent prospects still in the system.

But you want to cry that we don't hit home runs with every 4th round and later pick. You realize that on average only about 12% of players picked in the third round or later play more than a few NHL games. 25% or so for the 2nd round, 65% for the first round. The Wings have had 8 (possibly 9) out of 63 3rd round or later picks from 1998-2006 become regular NHLers. 5 of the 11 2nd rounders have made it (and 4 of those 11 were picked later than 60th, so really 3rd rounders), 1 of 3 1st rounders (with Kindl now a second possiblilty).

That's a pretty good record.