Kindl + 2nd or Smith for Petry seems like fair value to me.
I understand some people are high on Smith. If I'm being objective about this, he and Smith have similar PPG and Petry has more of a physical edge to his game. Smith was selected 27th overall in his draft year, Petry was 45th in his. Petry is only two years older than Smith, as well.
That said, I do think teams like Pittsburgh will offer more, especially with Maatta out for the season. Not to mention, if there is one guy I would count on wanting to come to Detroit this off season, it would be Petry. With some of the bigger names, I would think that spending assets to get them here would be a smart move, but I'm not sold on having to move assets to get Petry in Detroit. Only issue with that scenario that we'd have 8 defenders (Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser, Quincey, Smith, Petry, Kindl and Lashoff) on the team, with Ouellet ready to come up. Some decisions would have to be made.
Honestly, I was surprised to read this, too. Babcock's not usually one for sentiment, at least where hockey is concerned.
All I can picture is a kid at the grocery store, trying to contain his/her excitement. Their parent finally caves and says, "OK, you can get ONE chocolate bar", and the kid storms off at 100mph to grab one.
I agree, in part. My point is that while a solid puck mover is a necessary condition for being a contender, I don't think (given the way we've been playing) it's a sufficient one. As such, I don't see Holland going out and getting one just to get one.
If, however, we can string together some wins and play well against good teams (i.e. we're better than I think we are) then maybe Holland decides a puck mover is sufficient for Cup contention, and he pulls the trigger.
Right now I think he's trying to figure out which is the case. If the team wants a puck mover before the off-season, they better prove that they can run with the big boys.
I get what you're saying, but I feel like the last time Holland did this was when he traded for Stuart. Outside of there being some sort of emergency, or him wanting to bring back a familiar face, Holland just seems content to stand pat. Admittedly, I'm glad he has for the most part, as it's been great to stock up on prospects again. I think this team is in a different place now, though.
I think it's time to pull the trigger on a deal for an offensive defender, whether we're in contention or not. I'm not sure we've got a bona fide top 4, offensive defender in Smith. Maybe it happens in a couple seasons, but I'm not really sold on it. Even if he has that potential, it seems evident that Babcock doesn't trust him, which makes me doubt he'll be played in a role where he can thrive. I know we don't have that in Kindl, and Ericsson has been suspect. In all honesty, Kronwall and DeKeyser are the only guys I trust in a top 4 role right now.
I think Detroit is in a place where they have a piece like Smith (who may flourish in another role, elsewhere), and some other pieces a bit further away like Sproul, Marchenko and Jensen, Backman's rights, a draft pick, one of the extra forwards on this team. I don't think they have the assets to land an elite guy, but I do think they can make a move for a top 4 guy. I'm not advocating a deal for the sake of it - I'm not for overpayment. However, I do think this team needs a legitimate offensive threat on the back end, and that they have the assets to pull it off. Even though I don't think it's likely, I think it's time for Holland to pony up and take a risk.
Except Holland will never go after a Prust, Dorsett or Stewart because they fight. He doesn't care if they score goals and contribute as leaders somehow. If you fight, Holland and Babcock don't want you. Look how they ran Tootoo out of town because he actually fought. They want their 4th liners to be faceless jobbers who the fans don't care about.
If he ever reads your post and runs into you in public (or private), this is the look you'd get. Please choose your words carefully.
OK, well if you happen to talk to Brian anytime soon, here is a picture of Kip on vacation last summer. Tell him to swing first, and ask questions later.
What does that translate into for us? Not getting him. There's no way Holland gives up the roster players / prospects / picks necessary to land Yandle, and personally, I'm okay with that. I don't want to give up the assets for a Yandle type player anyway.
I think it would cost us something along the lines of Smith, Tatar/Jurco, Ouellet/Marchenko and a pick... Way too much in my opinion...
I was going to say something along these lines. I imagine it would mean Smith, Jurco, Pulkkinen/Ouellet/Sproul + 2nd (at least).
Since we don't have a Krug, those other parts have to be more appealing, so the Jurco, Pulu, etc. would have to be included. Too much, for sure.
I actually think Boston could be better equipped than us to pull this off. Krug, Spooner/Griffith, Kelly+ high pick might be able to get it done. Though, like they say in the post, Boston needs to shed salary. The "young roster player" might be where Arizona would have to leave some wiggle room. The deal doesn't get done without Boston moving Kelly (or perhaps Eriksson, but I think he's still a solid player). If AZ is asking for someone like Smith or Soderberg, I think Boston laughs and walks. That deal itself seems a little steep, IMO, but I think Boston might get desperate. With Vermette looking like he's going to walk, Kelly might be somewhat appealing to the 'Yotes.
DeKeyser and Kronwall and Ericsson are all better than Petry.
Agreed, minus the crossed out part.
I really don't think Ericsson is better than Petry. They're fairly close in some respects, but I think Petry edges him out in a couple areas. I think Petry got more offensive capabilities, and is more physical. He has more blocked shots as well, but they are kind of moot, since Edmonton sees way more shots on net.
If the second pair is just going to be a shutdown pair anyway, and provide relatively little offense, what do you guys think about moving dekeyser up with knonwall, and putting Ericsson with Quincey? I agree that Q and dekeyser have been good defensively, but if we can't figure out a transition game then I think we are going to continue to struggle.
I know this isn't going to be popular with anyone except for krsmith, but I'd actually try Smith up with Kronwall. If it blows up, switch it back. Isn't the definition of insanity trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? Kronwall-Ericsson isn't working - they've got 6 even strength points together, and they're not exactly a defensive stalwart. I think throwing Smith up there might actually generate some offense, and perhaps showcase him for a trade (krsmith won't like this part).
Ericsson just can't seem to keep it together this year. I like the idea of balancing pairs, regardless of where they're supposed to fit, (Top 4 vs. Top 6, etc.) but Ericsson hasn't brought much balance to the pair up to this point. Honestly, I would try DeKeyser up there with Kronwall as well, but I think trying this first kind of gauges where Smith is at, and also leaves our strongest pair together (for now).
They didn't. But that's what all this talk amounts to. I don't consider giving a 4th line spot to an enforcer as a big deal.4th liners don't play many minutes anyway and are usually replaceable. Nobody is saying let's sign tough guys and play them on the top line.
Last I checked, Larionov, Robitaille and Holmstrom don't play on our 4th line. Same thing with all the other teams in the league.
OK. I can agree with the idea that 4th liners are, to varying degrees, replaceable players. So let's take a look at what's been this team most used combination on the fourth line: Miller-Gledening-Andersson. On this current team, I think it's very clear that you don't replace Drew Miller or Luke Glendening with an enforcer type player. Detroit is 5th on the PK in the league, and a whole lot of that has to do with Miller and Glendening. They both hit (not a ton, but enough), block shots and make smart defensive plays on a nightly basis.
That leaves Andersson, who I fully admit is not an ideal 4th liner. Doesn't hit or block much - his ability to play on the PK is pretty much his only redeeming quality at this point. As I mentioned before, this team uses eight guys on the PP, leaving four to work the PK. In this case, Andersson's value is that he's not going to make guys like Sheahan or Abdelkader work on both the PP and PK.
I just don't get the idea of adding a player whose sole contribution to the team is dropping the gloves and "keeping people honest". I named a few guys who are effective in other ways (Dorsett, Prust, Roussel, etc.) who I would take over Andersson without a doubt, but all of them chip in offensively, or also work the PK. There is zero room for a "pure" enforcer type player on this team. It just doesn't fit this team's needs.
Not to mention, when this team's fully healthy, it's not using Andersson on the 4th line - it's likely Weiss or Helm. And I just hope you're not advocating using someone like McGrattan or Boll over either of those two.
So if I'm driving on icy roads that haven't been salted yet, I know they are icy and I don't use caution when driving and get in an accident it's the city's fault right? I mean I knew the risks but I did it anyway but the city has an obligation to salt those roads
You've lived in Windsor too long, man. I know Uncle Eddie used all his money on the Aquatic Centre, but the city is supposed to salt the roads
I personally hate staged fights, I feel like guys are hurting themselves for nothing. I agree with everything krsmith17 said, if an idiot like Lucic does something stupid to one of out players, I would love to have a guy that can step in, but only if that guy can also play hockey and is not just a goon.
Agree with most of what you've said, and I've agreed with this sentiment in the past, but I think Detroit isn't in a situation where they can't even afford to give up a spot to that type of player. We're pretty much devoid of offensive blueliners, so it takes 8 forwards to run this team's PP. Unless you're doubling up on someone, that leaves 4 guys for the PK.
Taking a look at the top 10 leaders in fighting majors, it's tough to find someone who could actually fit a need for this team. I see value in Dorsett, Prust, Roussel and Wilson.
I'm surprised that Dorsett has chipped in what he has on offense, especially considering his TOI. I don't really like him as a player, but objectively, I'll admit he has some value. Roussel and Prust play some time on the PK, and chip in offensively. Both get more time than your average 4th liner, though. I don't see either guy being in this team's top 9, so I wonder how they'd fare here with less minutes. I'd give both of them a spot over Andersson without hesitation, but that has more to do with their overall game than their willingness to drop the gloves.
Wilson... I don't understand how he's being used, to be honest. He actually has potential, and is a whole other type of player. I'm sure when Washington clears up something on the right side, his role on the team is going to change.
The other 6 guys (Boll, Tootoo, Crombeen, Martin, McLeod & Borowiecki) I don't see as having much value, for one reason or another. All in all, it'd be nice to have an element to keep other players honest, but I think it's tough to find a guy who can do that and contribute on the 4th line.
I was sure Weiss would either play the rest of the game on the 4th line or not play at all. Turns out, he kept his spot in the 3rd, but barely played. I think Babcock sees the value of having him on the PP, but other than that, it's obvious that Weiss either isn't working hard enough or doing the things Babcock wants him to. Or both. Actually, they might be one and the same.
I'm OK with this. Except that it really annoys the hell out of me that guys like Weiss and Legwand get this treatment when Franzen gets a free pass each and every night.
Agreed. Both guys are scoring at a .67 PPG clip, yet one is averaging over 16 minutes a night, while the other is getting around 11:30. Babcock keeps saying he's in the business of winning every night, but I get the impression that he's in the business of winning his way, and only his way.
That's all fine and good, but the other guy you're playing about five more minutes a night isn't exactly busting his behind, either.