I completely disagree with eveything you said in your post and here is why...You say Fedorov could have been replaced. With who? That is pure speculation. Number one centres do not grow on trees and teams who have them hardly ever trade them. Your logic is seriously flawed here. At the time, say 1996, who would Bowman (GM at the time) have replaced Fedorov with? Joe Sakic? Peter Forsberg? Yeah, I am sure the Avs would have been willing to trade 1 of those players to their hated arch rivals. Eric Lindros? The point here is that there was no one who was going to replace Fedorov in the line-up. Why do you think the Wings matched Carolina's offer sheet in 1998? They knew he could not have been replaced which is why they paid the high price of keeping him.
Your point is moot and nothing but speculation yet again regarding time on the ice. Did Shanny kill penalties? Who was on the ice more on the penalty kill than Fedorov was? Lidstrom? Amongst the forwards, Fedorov was relied on the most by Bowman. He even said it himself numerous times. You know just because you don't like Fedorov doesn't mean he wasn't a great hockey player. Your refer to 2002. Yzerman playing on 1 leg was great. However do you really believe the Wings win that Cup without Fedorov? Yzerman didn't add much scoring wise after the Canucks series. Fedorov was our best player. We don't win anything that year without him. To think otherwise makes you look like you don't know anything about the game. You do not like Fedorov and are basing your flawed argument on it.
I also do not believe we win any of those Cups without Lidstrom. He was that important. It isn't Fedorov' fault he had talented players around him. He made those guys better as well. You don't appreciate Fedorov's career, that is your opinion. Not mine.
I appreciate what he did, I even called him world class, even called him one of the most talented players, because you choose to ignore the shifts he took off does not mean I have to.
I admitted the whole team won championships, not just Yzerman.
But since you brought up 01-02 again here is another tidbit for you, who led the team in scoring that playoff run?
Thats right Stevie Y with 6g 17a and 23pts, Lids 16pts (5 goals), hull 18 pts (10 goals), shanny 19 pts(8 goals), feds 19 pts (5 goals). Goals Highlighted to refute your point, Hull was the beast in the later rounds! Hell Homer had 8 goals that year.
Yet another season where the team (after the first round) was playing great and so was Feds. Point out a year to me were Feds did the heavy lifting alone? What year did he carry the team?
Now look at the amount of years he had high post season point totals, and look at how many other Wings had great stats too.
They won as a team and lost as a team, neither Stevie nor Feds single handily won the team the cup, however Yzerman single handily won them a few series, even when the likes of Feds, Shanny and the rest were struggling. Where as Feds (again) was at his best when the team was at its best.
As far as replacing him, you saying you couldn't replace him is just as speculative, in 96-97 Feds was 44th in scoring(30th in goals), behind the likes of Ziggy Palffy, Hull, Kariya, Selanne, Bondra, Nolan, Moginly, Rechhi, Graves, Fluery, Yashin, Amonte, Stumpel, Weight, Damphouse etc... 95-96 he was 10th (again one of his two great seasons). 98-99 he was just behind Ray Whitney at 31st.
My point you may be asking, could they have replaced his production with one player for his entire career, no way in hell, but 2 or 3 players could have done it, and in fact anyone in 97-98 would have been more productive than Feds when he held out.
Who says the Wings don't trade Feds for Palffy one year, then get Tkachuk later or whoever. The wings were deep at center and had multiple lines with 2 centers on it. But again all speculation on both our parts.
Was Feds an important piece, very much so yes, was he as important as Stevie, no.
Does he deserve his # retired, no. Is he HOF, questionable and I only say that due to the amount of HOFers with his stats. How many forwards in the HOF have less than 500 goals? How many forwards in the HOF have less than 1200 points? If he made it would I be upset, no not at all congrats, there are bigger travesties in omissions and election into the HOF.
Either way my point is he doesn't deserve his number retired in the Red WIng org.
Got distracted during this post it may not make the sense I wanted.
I have an Yzerman sweater and no Fedorov. I just recognize that you can like 2 players at the same time. Fedorov's stats are there. Same cup wins as Yzerman. More and better individual trophy wins than Yzerman. Can Messier's jersey not be retired in Edmonton because Gretzky played ahead of him? Anybody that watched both of these guys knows that Fedorov was the superior hockey player. And if you concede that, then we can get back to the real argument- was Fedorov a true Red Wing and not just a hired gun? I think he was for the better part of his career. And thats why I think his sweater should be retired.
My like or dislike of Feds has nothing to do with it. Maybe this will help:
If part of the requirements in EDM were that players were lifelong, die hard, committed to the Org above all else neither of them would be retired in EDM, that is what makes retiring a number in Det so difficult and what keeps Feds out of the rafters.
You had me and then you lost me. Feds had the best playoff +/- in the 90's so saying he didnt show up is lame. And he didnt get hurt because he worked out and kept himself ripped. The Europeans caught onto tje importance of physical conditioning a lot faster than the North Americans in terms of hockey. Perhaps if Yzerman had trained as hard as Fedorov, he would have been there to help the lone horse out a bit more. All this being said, why does Fedorov have to be Yzerman? When the raise his jersey, should they put "Not Steve" on the back?
Why compare the two, well lets see we are talking about Wing forwards who should or have their number retired, only one of the retired # forwards actually played at the same time as Feds, plus someone else already compared them.
But you are missing the point; if you have to say "not Stevie" or "Not Gordie" or not "Lids" they don't belong in the rafters at the Joe!
Another example if you don't like the Stevie Y comparison: Lids jersey, no need to put "not Stevie" on the back, he was the Perfect Human for 17+ seasons, was a Captain and a lifelong wing who toke pay cuts to help the team get better. He never played the hold out game, he never said he needed more ice time or to be the man.
Yzerman's injuries had nothing to do with not being in shape, it wasn't like he was out due to pulled groins or ab strains.
He had surgery that most people are lucky to walk after having, he had an orbital bone shattered by a puck, how do you strengthen and condition your orbital bone??
Yzerman was past his prime when feds was in it, yet Yzerman put up better numbers.
And I explained to you when I thought feds crapped out in the playoffs, when Yzerman and Shanny played 3 games, and the team was relying on Feds. But when he did shine the likes of Yzermam, Kozlov, Murphy, Lids, Larionov and others were also producing.
Check out how many wings had double digit playoff points.
Let me try to explain my position better notice the difference in these sentences:
Fedorov was a world class talent who helped the team win multiple championships and build a dynasty, who took shifts, games, and even parts of seasons off, left the franchise for a chance to be the man.
Yzerman was a world class talent who helped the team win multiple championships and build a dynasty, constantly put the team first in salary, ice time, and any other way you can think of, was the epitome of what a captain should be, and was the complete embodiment of what it means to be a Red Wing.
Lidstrom was a world class talent who helped the team win multiple championships and build a dynasty, constantly put the team first in salary, ice time, and any other way you can think of, was the epitome of what a captain should be, and was the complete embodiment of what it means to be a Red Wing.
Being an elite, world class athlete is simply just not enough to get your # retired for the Wings, sorry, it just isn't enough.
Its hard to compare someone who played in the 80s to someone who played in the 90s, just saying.
If Fedorov had played in the NHL during the 80's, he'd have 2000 pts. Yzerman's stats are just the product of playing in a crappy defense time period. Are you going to tell me Bernie Nichols is better than Fedorov?
The Axe: Google and Hockey DB are your friends, research things before you just say something. I know the internet is mostly filled with Porn, bad journalism, and stupid pop up ads, but it has useful parts too.
Now this is what has always confused me about this argument; the stats! So what you are saying is Stevie must have scored 3/4 of his goals in the 7 years he played in the 80s? (I know exaggeration, but you get the point)
Ok lets be fair to the Feds camp on this one and just compare years they played together on the same team, would that be better?
No Ana feds, no 1980s Yzerman stats.
Career totals from 1990-91 season until 2002-03
Sergei Fedorov gp g a pt pims plus/minus Playoff gp g a pts pim 1990-91 Detroit Red Wings NHL 77 31 48 79 66 11 -Playoffs 7 1 5 6 4 1991-92 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 32 54 86 72 26 -11 5 5 10 8 1992-93 Detroit Red Wings NHL 73 34 53 87 72 33 -7 3 6 9 23 1993-94 Detroit Red Wings NHL 82 56 64 120 34 48 -7 1 7 8 6 1994-95 Detroit Red Wings NHL 42 20 30 50 24 6 17 -7 17 24 6 1995-96 Detroit Red Wings NHL 78 39 68 107 48 49 -19 2 18 20 10 1996-97 Detroit Red Wings NHL 74 30 33 63 30 29 -20 8 12 20 12 1997-98 Detroit Red Wings NHL 21 6 11 17 25 10 -22 10 10 20 12 1998-99 Detroit Red Wings NHL 77 26 37 63 66 -9 10 1 8 9 8 1999-00 Detroit Red Wings NHL 68 27 35 62 22 8 -9 4 4 8 4 2000-01 Detroit Red Wings NHL 75 32 37 69 40 12 -6 2 5 7 0 2001-02 Detroit Red Wings NHL 81 31 37 68 36 20 -23 5 14 19 20 2002-03 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 36 47 83 52 15 -4 1 2 3 0 Totals 908 400 554 954 587 276 162 50 113 163 113
Steve Yzerman 1990-91 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 51 57 108 34 -2 -Playoffs7 3 3 6 4 1991-92 Detroit Red Wings NHL 79 45 58 103 64 26 -11 3 5 8 12 1992-93 Detroit Red Wings NHL 84 58 79 137 44 33 -7 4 3 7 4 1993-94 Detroit Red Wings NHL 58 24 58 82 36 11 -3 1 3 4 0 1994-95 Detroit Red Wings NHL 47 12 26 38 40 6 -15 4 8 12 0 1995-96 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 36 59 95 64 29 -18 8 12 20 4 1996-97 Detroit Red Wings NHL 81 22 63 85 78 22 -20 7 6 13 4 1997-98 Detroit Red Wings NHL 75 24 45 69 46 3 -22 6 18 24 22 1998-99 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 29 45 74 42 8 -10 9 4 13 0 1999-00 Detroit Red Wings NHL 78 35 44 79 34 28 -8 0 4 4 0 2000-01 Detroit Red Wings NHL 54 18 34 52 18 4 -1 0 0 0 0 2001-02 Detroit Red Wings NHL 52 13 35 48 18 11 -23 6 17 23 10 2002-03 Detroit Red Wings NHL 16 2 6 8 8 6 -4 0 1 1 2 864 369 609 978 526 185 149 51 84 135 62
With half a season less hockey played Yzerman has more pts & more assists than feds. Bottom Line Yzerman put up better numbers in fewer games (I will admit Feds scored more goals but less than the gp difference): 90-91 through 02-03 Totals Feds 908 400 554 954 587 276 Stevie 864 369 609 978 526 185
If you look at the first stats the only seasons Feds dominates Yzerman in stats is the years Yzerman played 50 games. They are also Fedorov's only two great seasons.
Feds had five 80pt seasons including two 100 pt seasons in this span, Yzerman had six 80 pt seasons and three 100+ point seasons including a 58 g 79 a 137 pt season.
Fedorov outscored Yzerman in the playoffs by 28 points in 13 more games. Impressive! Yzerman scored more goals in that period however, but was Feds had far more assists, but had 6 post season were he scored 2 goals or fewer including 93-94 when he scored 1 goal in 7 games while Yzerman missed 4 games, or 00-01 when Yzerman and Shanny had a combined 3 games played while Yzerman put up all 0s in the one game Shanny went all Chuck Woolery (2 &2) in two games, feds played 6 games and put up 2 goals and 5 assists for 7 points. This was when the team really need 5 goals and 2 assists from him.
Not only was Yzerman on par with your most talented player in the history of the game, he put up better numbers, in the 80s or not.
Numbers do not lie, Yzerman was better than Feds (in his prime) and played most of the end of their tenure badly injured.
Not only was Yzerman the better statistical player, he was the epitome of what it means to be a Captain and a Red Wing. He played on broken bones while Feds played when he wanted (he was a much more talented Franzen). Many people forget the post seasons in which the Wings relied on Feds because Yzerman and Shanny were banged up, and when feds was the only Horse Det had in the race and he failed to show up.
Again Yzerman is a top 10 player statistically in the history of the league: Goals 8th all time 692 Points 6th all time 1755 Assists 7th all time 1063
I know I said I would leave the 80s and the mid 2000s out of this but over his career Yzerman was a 1.16 ppg player, while Feds was .944.
Feds is Carmelo Anthony, phenomenal when surrounded by elite talent, unbelievable when he is counted on to be the second or third cog in the wheel. Then when it is all on him he craps out.
Yzerman towed the company line, even when faced with trade rumors he did what was best for the org, not him.
This is what will prevent Feds from being up in the rafters, these are the rafters in the Joe, not in Colorado where Ray Bourque played 1.5 seasons and got his # retired. The Wings have had a long history of great players, it takes a special player to get his number retired in the Winged Wheel. Had Fed towed the company line a little more, not let his personal matters interfere, not let his ego and wallet interfere, and had he stayed a Wing for his career maybe 91 is in the rafters already.
As it is he fails to meet the Team first requirement, as well as the life long Wing requirement( as far as the Lindsey left so blah blah blah, I already addressed that, those players left due to a horrible turn in ownership, not for more money or a chance to be the man).
Sorry, no 91 in the rafters.
Edit: Wow that was all pretty and formatted until I posted it, then the chart went to poop, glad I cleared it up for you.
The only reason Eaves, Abby, Mursak and others are at risk is the young guys in the system, but really I see most of them as top 6 prospects.
I really don't see the Wings going after any more bottom 6 guys.
Any moves from here on out will be top 6.
So if you consider Sammy replaces Hudler, Tootoo Replaces Homer.
Basically the spots are the same as last year, same guys competing for the same spots.
Same competition for ice time as last year: Miller v Eaves, Mursak v Emmerton, Abby on 3rd v Abby on the 4th.
I think you are much more likely to see the Wings part ways with Mursak and Emmerton than either Abby or Eaves.
I think a 4th line with Abby and Tootoo could really create some havoc on the ice together, and with Miller and Eaves on the wing (rotation) that could really be a solid defensive line with some punch.
I think the third line though will see a lot of Cleary, Helm, Sammy/Bert, so unfortunately that leaves the 4th line without a true Center. Abby can play that role, but is not really a true center.
This is also why I see a trade making more sense to the Wings than signing Parise. If they add Parise it would be awesome, but then there are way to many forwards.
If they are able to trade Franzen for a top 6 forward like a Ryan then maybe you can trade Flip for a top 4 D-man.
But all of the stuff in the top 6 is speculation, the bottom 6 has 2 forwards that are going to have to be out of the rotation, and I think if all are healthy Abby, Miller, and Eaves are Babs choice to stay. He seemed to really like the rotation of Miller and Eaves before Eaves got hurt, they know the system and form a pretty decent 4th line when you add Tootoo to that.
The Wings will win. Trust me today is my day. I just came home (to check on the dog) from the hospital where my daughter (first child) was born at 3:59am EST.
6lbs 7oz 19 inch beautiful girl, mom and baby are doing very well.
No way the hockey gods would let the Wings lose today, and make me have to deal with all of my friends(I live near Boston) for the next 2 months!
You are missing the point, he is a hero (as you put it) not because he blocked a shot.
But the situation in which he did it. In front of an open net, Diving face first.
What you are missing is that if he didn't get hit in the face we would be talking about the effort he gave, even if the puck went in.
Now if they score and he dives, it is in the game day thread as a great effort.
He dives and blocks it with his body, and the score was 4-1, or 5-2 or whatever at the time then it probably ends up still in the game day thread.
He dives and blocks the shot during a one goal game that the wings go on to dominate and win the third period after his effort, probably a one page thread with a few posts.
He dives and blocks the shot with his face, causing injury, and it is during a one goal game that the wings go on to dominate and win the third period after his effort. You end up with this thread.
You got negged and I responded because you are acting like this happens 5-6 times a game, when in all actuality when was the last time you saw a player dive face first to block a puck in the crease. Let a lone a Wings D-man, think about how skilled( or unskilled rather) wings d-men have been around the crease the last few years. People on here have bitched for years about the Wings D and clearing the crease or dealing with rebounds.
Even when Z does SLIDE into the crease from time to time he goes in feet first, other D go down on one knee to block it.
He laid out for that one like very few players in the league do.
This was not just another blocked shot, IMO.
But don't take my word on it, take these:
"Well, he took one for the team, that's for sure," said White's defensive partner, Nicklas Lidstrom. "He saved a goal there, diving with his face first. I haven't seen him yet, but I think he got a bad cut to his face. "But he did save the goal for us, and we were very grateful."
"I hope he's OK," defenseman Brad Stuart said. "But that takes guts to want to do that. They're still in it at that point. So that was a big play for us. "When you have someone kind of sacrifice themselves for the good of the team, that lifts guys."
"Obviously, you like to see guys selling out," Babcock said. "You don't like to see guys get hit in the face. "But great message to his teammates, and he competes every night, this guy.
It was a bloody ACCIDENT that he got hit in the face, why are people acting like he did some great thing? Sucks that he got hurt but he sure as hell didn't stick his face in line of fire on purpose...
Umm then what do you call diving face first in front of the shooter, while laying on the goal line. While at the same time the netminder was still turning to face the shooter. As in he was not even looking in that direction yet.
White dove in front of an open net and got hit in the face for his troubles.
Sure I bet his intention was to block it with his body, but the fact he laid it out, and didn't just try to use his stick, is what people are applauding him for. The fact that he took it to the face adds to the "glamour" or "mystique" of the play.
But it was not like he was standing still and got hit in the ass while not looking.
He PURPOSELY (meaning on purpose, therefore not an accident) dove in front of an empty net to save a goal. He did that, not accidentally, not by chance, not by luck. He dove in front of the puck with the intention (again on purpose not an accident) to block the shot.
He did just that, just so happens he used his cheek (face not ass) to get the job done. Which indirectly led to two goals and a DET win.
IMO if he reaches with his stick to poke check that, it is a tie game and the whole complexion of the game changes.
These are the things we are celebrating.
His effort, his hustle, and his commitment to the team.
Anyone else notice that as soon as players leave Florida they almost all tear it up, or become the player they were before going to FLA or the player they were supposed to be before being drafted by FLA.
Examples (I am sure there are counter examples too)
T. Vokoun (from washed up to very early Vezina candidate)
Florida, where a hockey player's skill and old people go to die!!
i think he's much much better offensively than stuart. his instincts are right up there with the best of em. and that quick sneaky shot he gets off is miles ahead of anything stuart's ever had.
defensively, not as big obviously...but stuart doesn't exactly throw that weight around anymore either. he seems less mistake prone in his own zone with the puck than stuie. seems to keep track of his man better as well. i think he's clearly our third best all-around defenseman.
I'll give you that. In fact I also gave you +1 (I know you probably could care less). I am one of the people on here who really values the game Stuart brings. I liked the way White played when the Wings faced the Sharks.
Either way I was really trying to complement White, as I see more of him I guess I will see more of his qualities that you pointed out. But I really have only seen him since he was a Shark and only when they faced the Wings, so my opinion is based off of a small sample size.
Short story: I agree and I am really happy with this signing and hope they extend him long term (4-6 years @ ~3 would be a steal).