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Member Since 19 May 2010
Offline Last Active Aug 20 2014 10:16 PM
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#2180215 Hudler's Future

Posted by eva unit zero on 27 May 2011 - 02:27 AM

Cleary can be at par and better with Franzen. Some times.

But neither Fil or Hudler are at the same level as Franzen. Give your head a shake.


Franzen brings size, which he doesn't really utilize, and a good shot. Filppula is very good all-around, and Hudler is a great playmaker with a wicked shot. The fact of the matter is, if I had to fill out my team with one of the three, and then a bunch of Drew Miller clones, I would pick Flip. Franzen needs a playmaker. He can be a great goal scorer, but he needs a playmaker. That's his big weakness; he has to have someone to feed him. I would argue that is at least as big a weakness as Hudler's skating. And defensively Franzen has given up that edge he had in his own zone, so there's no advantage for Franzen over Hudler. We're basically talking do we want someone who can pass really well and shoot, or someone who can shoot really well but needs a passer? And Flip's defense is why he doesn't belong in this conversation; he's close to that level offensively, and provides excellent defense.


#2177883 Hudler's Future

Posted by eva unit zero on 21 May 2011 - 12:30 AM

Correct. I mean, look at Jimmy. Ask everyone what they think at this exact second and then ask what they think about Huds. It's 'what have you done for me lately?' in Hockeytown always.


Huds wasn't given credit for being one of the team's best players in the second half until he was scoring like crazy on Datsyuk's wing. And even then, it was "he only plays well with Datsyuk" so to argue "what do people think of him now is a loaded argument. Hudler's last 35 games were FAR better than Franzen's last 35. Hudler outplayed Franzen against Phoenix even before Franzen's injury, and was better against the Sharks. Yet Franzen gets "Oh, it's ok, he was injured" for the playoffs and in the regular season it's "he'll be awesome in the playoffs" while Hudler is "he's too small/slow" or if he was knocked down it's "damn weakling, replace him with (insert random big-bodied player here)" so it's not really fair. People think Franzen is an elite scoring winger because of what he can do sometimes in the playoffs or the streaks he has gone on. It's not true. Filppula is the team's third-best forward, and Franzen and Hudler are about equal in ability. Cleary is just behind them in the #6 spot.

You still haven't answered one of my questions. And that was, did Hudler only play 11 games in a top 6 role?

And Crymson beat me to it, people brought up the amazing run Franzen had in '08.

Do you really think it's possible that he could score 105 points? Really?


Hudler played maybe 15-20 games in a top-six role. And he scored nearly a point-per-game for a stretch of about 30 games. Only two other forwards on the team scored at/near a point-per-game for the entirety of their top-six time this season. Z and Dats. Franzen, Cleary, scored close to 0.7 PPG. Bert, Flip, Homer and Huds all had about 0.5 per game. Huds was the only one who played outside the top six most of the year. Even with his 30-game scoring slump where he played a considerable amount on the fourth line, he still ended up tied for seventh in team points in the regular season. Give him a chance in the top-six and he'll tear it up. Not 105 points, but I would put him down for third on the team if everyone stays healthy.


#2179584 Hudler's Future

Posted by eva unit zero on 25 May 2011 - 01:42 PM

Hudler had a nice little spurt of point production between Christmas and the end of February. Thats pretty much it. Following that, he went pointless for seven games and finally started doing something again around the beginning of the playoffs (as others had mentioned, so did the rest of the team.) Franzen's longest pointless drought was 4 games, while Hudler's was 13. To even fathom the notion that Hudler is as/more valuable than Franzen makes one question your sanity.


It's easy to not have a long pointless streak playing with Datsyuk. What would March and April have looked like if the Hudler/Datsyuk/Cleary line hadn't been broken up for those last 15 games? If Hudler scores at the same pace he did while it was together, he's around 50 points on the season.

Yes, Hudler wasn't scoring early on. I wonder how "elite scorer" Franzen would have done without Dats or Z to feed him?



#2179606 Hudler's Future

Posted by eva unit zero on 25 May 2011 - 02:16 PM

This is exactly what we've been trying to tell eva this entire thread, read the last few pages. We've all mentioned it, his play on the ice isn't that great and you simply cannot take one of his hot streaks and say that merits him getting top-six time on a consistent basis. Eva simply refuses to listen to reason.


Who deserves top six ice time ahead of him? Todd Bertuzzi, who had it all season, largely with Datsyuk or Zetterberg, and scored only a couple more points? Hudler belongs in the top six, whether you think he's one of the top six forwards on the team or not. He may be streaky, but so is Franzen and people here seem to think Franzen is one of the league's top forwards, when Franzen isn't even one of the three best forwards on the Wings.


#2179954 Hudler's Future

Posted by eva unit zero on 26 May 2011 - 11:45 AM

God, please don't tell me Hudler is third best.

I never bothered ranking, but if I had to here's the top of my list. Remember, defense and intangibles can be just as important (if not more) as offense.

1a. Datsyuk
1b. Zetterberg

3. Franzen
4. Filppula
5. Cleary

After these two groups, I would say players like Helm, Holmstrom and Eaves are much more essential to our team than Hudler. They all have a certain niche on our team.


Z, Dats, and Flip are all better than Franzen. Hudler and Cleary are basically even with Franzen. Cleary and Franzen are both very average at passing and playmaking, while Hudler is among the best in the league in that regard. Cleary is easily the best skater and defensive forward of the three, and Franzen has the most monstrous goal-scoring ability. But overall, the three of them are on basically the same level.


#2179576 Hudler's Future

Posted by eva unit zero on 25 May 2011 - 01:24 PM

Being objective about Hudler is impossible for you, though. It's a Hudler thread, but if you want we can all band together and bring all your quotes from "non-Hudler" threads where he is still somehow dissected by you. Don't get bent out of shape because we are calling you on the same old nonsense. It's truly unwarranted.


I love how I am accused of not being objective about Hudler because I don't get irrationally angry about how small he is, or the fact he isn't a speedster. I have never claimed Hudler to be a superstar, I don't act like he's some kind of hero, but I get s*** on because I don't s*** on him. That's what's unwarranted.


#2179563 Hudler's Future

Posted by eva unit zero on 25 May 2011 - 01:04 PM

Sigh. Franzen's injury came in the second game of the series against Phoenix. He still outplayed Hudler.

Eva, I'm done discussing Hudler with you, and I'm done discussing Osgood with you. I'm not sure why, but you verge on fanaticism when you speak of them.


Hudler was just as effective offensively as Franzen in those two games, he just played about half the time Franzen did. And Hudler didn't make a huge defensive mistake that cost the team a goal right off the bat. Or do you only remember massive defensive mistakes when Hudler makes them?

Hudler may not have had a great playoffs overall, but he was better than Franzen when healthy, and better than Franzen overall.



#2179554 Hudler's Future

Posted by SouthernWingsFan on 25 May 2011 - 12:55 PM

For f**k's sake eva unit zero, you got to stop this s**t.

Explaining it another way is simple.

YOU HAVE HUDLER BIAS.

Give it a fricken' rest.

Franzen has more defensive potential than Hudler, you'll rarely see Hudler in there at the end of a game if the team is leading. You'll see Franzen over Hudler 99 times out of 100. You don't see Hudler play 4-on-4. You see Franzen play 4-on-4. YOU may claim or YOU may say he is a good defensive forward or above average or whatever, but coaches and people making the decisions think otherwise.

I will repeat...

YOU HAVE HUDLER BIAS in levels beyond unimaginable and annoying and you will not shut up about it. I like Hudler, it's cool that you like him, but seeing your absurd bias with him makes me want to (1) strangle you until you are temporarily unconscious and (2) see him not do well and not be here so there might come a time where you might actually shut up about him.

I. DO. NOT. CARE. THAT. BADLY. about you trying to prove that Hudler is better than he is or that Franzen was worse or that Hudler is better than Franzen or whatever numbers or stats you pull out of your rear end. And I think it's a safe bet plenty of other people in here share some of the same thought.

When it comes to letting things go regarding this, you have the I.Q. of a deck chair.

For the love of god and everything good and holy, give it a fricken' rest.


#2178789 Hudler's Future

Posted by eva unit zero on 23 May 2011 - 10:00 PM

Let's not forget that Franzen is faster, better defensively, more physical, and far more difficult to knock off the puck.


Let's look at three big defensive mistakes from the postseason. Franzen, Helm, and Hudler all let a guy walk in and receive a one-timer pass. I rank Franzen's the worst of the three, and Helm's the most forgivable.

Why?

Hudler experienced the exact same play as Helm, but the Wings were now ready for it. No excuse.

Franzen was the only one of the three who was close to the scorer, he could see him and the passer, yet he did nothing to prevent the goal.



#2179543 Hudler's Future

Posted by eva unit zero on 25 May 2011 - 12:37 PM

Franzen had a sprained ankle.

Nagging injury does not equal piss poor attitude.

And before you say "Well he shouldn't have played injured," pretty much anybody who can move a toe is going to attempt to play in the playoffs, I don't care if you are a first line super star or the towel boy. Really easy to say from the stands that somebody shouldn't play when you aren't the one playing or wanting to play.

Stinks that Franzen's injury couldn't improve but them's the breaks sometimes. That has jack squat to do with any attitude or character problems.


Franzen looked like s*** before his injury. For almost 30 games before he was injured. But it was ok, because "he'll show up in the playoffs" and then he didn't, even before he was injured. Forwards who played better than Franzen IN THE PLAYOFFS BEFORE HIS INJURY? Datsyuk, Helm, Filppula, and HUDLER. Yep, Hudler. Maybe you don't remember because his San Jose series was so much worse, but Hudler was a force in the Phoenix series. Franzen was effective in one game, and even in that game he made a defensive mistake just as bad as the one Hudler made against San Jose.

B-B-B-But Franzen was injured! Please, explain it away some other way.



#2179553 Hudler's Future

Posted by eva unit zero on 25 May 2011 - 12:53 PM

And... so was the rest of the damn team. Name one player that didn't have an above average series against Phoenix. I mean, Salei even notched a goal and looked good.

B-B-B-But Hudler had that stretch back in December where he was Christ in hockey skates, right? We are provided nothing from you b-b-b-but Hudler love, stop.


Hudler was one of the team's most effective players from Christmas until the end of the Phoenix series. It wasn't just a few games.

And my point was that Hudler outplayed Franzen during the portion of the playoffs Franzen was healthy for. And in case you didn't notice, this is a Hudler thread. Don't want to discuss Hudler, don't come into this thread. It's easy.



#2177488 Hudler's Future

Posted by eva unit zero on 19 May 2011 - 11:07 PM

Yet you think he can score 105 points over 82 games if he played with Datsyuk, who btw has topped out at 97.


I think he can score 105 points? It's certainly possible he could do it, but I don't think it would happen. What I have said is that in the eleven games he played with Datsyuk, he was on pace for a 105 point season. That's not the same as me saying "I think he would keep up that scoring all year!" but you don't seem to be one for accuracy.

I'm a little confused. Hudler only played 11 games in a top 6 role?
Also, you mention stats to support Hudler from previous seasons, yet when people show stats to support franzen you disregard them.


When have people mentioned stats to show support for Franzen? What stats?


#2176153 Ole-Kristian Tollefsen

Posted by VM1138 on 16 May 2011 - 08:10 AM

Leino would never had succeeded here. And it's not like he's a great player. Yeah, he puts up some numbers, but only when playing with other great players. He's also not a hard worker and not the kind of player to make his own points by working hard.


#2176151 Ole-Kristian Tollefsen

Posted by dirtydangles on 16 May 2011 - 07:53 AM

i CANT believe we let go Ville for this guy.. I dont know if it was a salary dump or they thought they were getting a good player? I wish we never parted ways with Ville

we can have him back next season. hes a ufa and philly has a lot of guys already signed. leino needs a pay raise from his 800,000 contract last season.


#2176091 Homer needs to be a 4th liner/PP specialist next season..

Posted by Echolalia on 15 May 2011 - 11:50 PM

For all the beef he gets, Homer plays incredibly smart hockey. He knows his strengths and weaknesses and he plays a style that maximizes the opportunity to use his strengths and minimizes the chances that his weaknesses will be exposed. He's the best in the league (still) in front and around the net and plays a smart cycle. He won't be the first guy out of the zone, but that isn't his job. In fact his job is usually quite the opposite: to hang down low until the puck definitively leaves the zone. There have been a lot of times where following an offensive zone turnover, the rest of our team bails and starts back-checking only for the puck to be turned over again just inside the blue line. The team knows to just get it deep because Homer is still down there and will be able to hold the puck down low long enough for the rest of the team to reestablish the zone. Most other teams just dump the puck (ie turnover) and fall back into the trap. I've seen Cleary, Bert, and Abby follow this pattern on more than one occasion as well.
Anyways, the rest of our forwards are pretty well rounded. When you play alongside Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg, you can afford to not be a great backchecker, or have strong playmaking/stickhandling skills.

I like what Homer can bring to the table. Still.