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Member Since 11 Jun 2010
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#2622173 Who is the better player Zetterberg or Toews. Prime vs. Present

Posted by number9 on Yesterday, 04:26 PM

Take a look at Toews beard and then take a look at Zetters beard. Does that answer the question?

Case closed

#2622158 Who is the better player Zetterberg or Toews. Prime vs. Present

Posted by kickazz on Yesterday, 01:02 PM

Some people are watching the games, instead of looking at spreadsheets and notebooks. If Toews were an ufa today 28 teams would be lining up with even more money than his 10,5 he is that valuable. Most people that think he isn't a top 10 player should watch the games.

I've watched him play about 25 or so games this past year he's a great player but not top 3 on ice. I'm usually more impressed when I watch Tavares and Stamkos play. Last season I enjoyed Backstrom a good amount. 

Some of us like maths but others also like watching and playing hockey. Call us well rounded if you must XD

I usually DVR all Wings games if I can't watch live. And Comcast/Xfinity does a decent job of saving prime time games for NHL network. That's how I get to watch Chicago, LA games (where I can watch Kopitar)

#2621862 2015 Detroit Tigers/MLB Baseball thread

Posted by marcaractac on 30 July 2015 - 12:07 PM

David price is a blue jay now.


Excited :D

#2622066 Who is the better player Zetterberg or Toews. Prime vs. Present

Posted by kickazz on 02 August 2015 - 12:39 AM

I'm interested to know why people think Toews in his prime is better than Z in his prime.


Also why he's better than Z currently. 

I'm all ears honestly. 

#2621995 Jonathan Quick on snipers, including Datsyuk

Posted by kliq on 01 August 2015 - 12:49 AM


Well if you think the playoff argument doesn't fly because the Hawks have played more games I can do the same. The PPG argument doesn't fly because obviously Z is 34 and Toews is 27 so for sure Z should have a better PPG because he has been in more playoffs series overall.


Anyway I think you are taking this way too personal instead of rationally. So I ask you this all things aside would you take Toews over Z right now yes or no ?


Frank......its harder to sustain a high average the more games you play, not the other way around. Either way, its no question who the better player is today as Z has definitely declined with age, but I still believe that Toews is the most overrated player in the NHL.

And no the defense is not widely the difference. I remember Zetterberg shutting down Toews and making Toews cry in the penalty box in playoff series we played against them.


Yup.....yet he's still considered the leader and the #1 reason why the Hawks have won 3 cups. That was the moment Seabrook showed me who the true leader of the Hawks is. Keith/Seabrook deserve alot more credit then they get. I'm sick of Toews being talked about like he is the best player in the league.

#2621981 Jonathan Quick on snipers, including Datsyuk

Posted by kickazz on 31 July 2015 - 11:24 PM


Well if you think the playoff argument doesn't fly because the Hawks have played more games I can do the same. The PPG argument doesn't fly because obviously Z is 34 and Toews is 27 so for sure Z should have a better PPG because he has been in more playoffs series overall.


Anyway I think you are taking this way too personal instead of rationally. So I ask you this all things aside would you take Toews over Z right now yes or no ?

Frank.. Toews has only played 15 less playoff games than Z. Their comparison for PPG works perfectly fine because the sample used is large for both. Toews = 117 games. Zetterberg = 132 games.


Zetterberg has better playoff numbers than Toews overall. Toews is not a better playoff performer overall. 


I don't think he is taking it personal, I think he is appauled that you actually think that Toews is a better playoff performer knowing that the Blackhawks have a better team and have played much more games in the past 3 years and you're sort of holding it against Z since you mentioned how he only had 2 and 3 points in the playoffs while Toews had higher numbers. Well obviously because he only played like 2 games last year and only 7 this year while Toews played 19 games last year and 23 this year....  I know you're not into advance stats but this is just pure logic and simple math that we learn in elementary school. You can't honestly think you can make an argument out of Z being inferior when he only played 2 and 7 games. 


Toews over Zetterberg on the Red Wings roster? 


The answer is Zetterberg. 


Z can put up just as many points as Toews in the regular season on a worse team.


If Z were on the Blackhawks he would easily break 80 points during the season. Easily. 


Frank I think you're just falling into the media trap. They glorify Toews. He is basically the face of Canadian hockey next to Crosby. Don't like them persuade you! Facts and numbers don't lie. And no I don't mean advance stats I mean simple addition and subtraction. 

#2622010 Who is better Nyquist or Tatar?

Posted by Helmethead on 01 August 2015 - 03:49 AM

Right now I'd say Tatar is. Eventually Nyquist might be.

#2621977 Voracek gets rich! over 8mil per

Posted by kickazz on 31 July 2015 - 10:45 PM


Toews has 1 PPG season in the lockout year, how does he warrant 10.8 million again? Oh right, he's a "great leader" blah blah blah so he gets an extra 2.8 million.








5 players right there that are better then Toews.


He had 62 points the year before that..

Yeah, the Toews/Kane contract was ridic but then again it wasn't like Chicago was going to let them walk.


My personal top 5 would be:






Datsyuk (if healthy)


In no particular order. And yes Datsyuk. He is still a PPG player and can still do it all when needed and he's still incredible on faceoffs/takeaways. 


I think Zetterberg is better than Claude Girioux and Toews if healthy. I think this past season was an outlier for him.


I might add Malkin into top five and swap out Datsyuk but it was be a toss up between the two seeing as tho neither had the best seasons this past year. 

#2621971 Jonathan Quick on snipers, including Datsyuk

Posted by number9 on 31 July 2015 - 07:28 PM


The more games you play the harder the PPG is to maintain? Is that not common sense? It's not personal, it's pretty rational. I showed you stats that prove my argument, I have yet to see anything from you except text as to why you think Toews is better.


Yes, Z over Toews because as stats show Toews is not the better player.


Edit: Actually I don't know why I am asking you for stats, you are the same person that doesn't acknowledge advanced stats. You can't argue what you don't undestand.


Some people just lap up whatever the media tell them to think. It's a problem that extends far beyond national sports.

#2621970 Voracek gets rich! over 8mil per

Posted by number9 on 31 July 2015 - 07:22 PM


Since your bringing up Toews selke's, and great two way play. Let's see if the gap is really that close for the defensive argument you are clinging to.


Let's compare the resumes to show how Toews all around play doesn't account for Ovi's all around play.



1 Selke
1 Conn Smythe


Oh yea, that 1 selke really shows Toews is soo great defensively. He is absolutely just miles above everyone else, especially Ovi. He has a whopping 1 more Selke after all. Like I said before, are you saying Bergeron is better then Toews?


2005-06 NHL Calder Memorial Trophy
2007-08 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2007-08 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2007-08 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy
2007-08 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2008-09 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2008-09 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy
2008-09 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2009-10 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2012-13 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2012-13 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy
2013-14 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy
2014-15 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy


Oh yea, let me also mention one of these players is a generational talent, the other is just a very good player.


Logic + Facts = Nerdy + Math Freak


Nerdy + Math Freak = You lose, you get nothing, good day sir


My knock on Ovi is his commitment to defense. It has lapsed at times. Otherwise he's an absolute bull in a china shop/freak of nature generational talent


My knock on Toews is he's overly praised for being on a very good team that he happens to captain, so he gets a ton of attention. He's also Canadian, so he gets ton of attention. He's pretty much supplanted Crosby as the NHL's "can't do wrong" "favoritest player" golden boy. Otherwise he's a very hard working player on all ends of the ice.


My edge goes easily to Ovi. Had Ovi been Canadian and drafted in Toews spot on the Hawks, and Toews Russian and drafted in Ovi's spot on the Caps... Toews would be talked about like Backstrom and Ovi would be talked about like Super Mario.

#2621907 Voracek gets rich! over 8mil per

Posted by number9 on 31 July 2015 - 11:38 AM

I agree with your overall point, but I wouldn't look too much into your examples.  Toews and Kane are worth whatever they want, for the most part.  You can surround them with anybody else and they win you Cups.  The return on investment with those two is insane. 


With O'Reilly it's just a matter of a bad team trying to put itself on the map.  Any competitive team wouldn't have paid him that.  But Buffalo desperately needs some legitimacy, to get it you need good players, and to get them (if you're a small market and you suck) you have to overpay.  Guys like O'Reilly ain't going to Buffalo for the girls and the nightlife.


So you think the contract is bad or no? More examples: Tarasenko at 7.5 or Stepan at 6.5. 


Voracek was 5th in the entire league in scoring this last season. And he's big and he's young. I'm saying he pretty much got market value.

#2621636 Holtby Asking for $8M

Posted by The Greek on 27 July 2015 - 04:07 PM

The old eyeball test.  Keeping the Earth flat and at the center of the solar system since the dawn of man.  Gotta love it. 

Yup. It's particularly popular with people who use "girl" as an insult. It's pretty funny when you realize that the anti-analytics crowd is really just anti-information.

#2621614 Holtby Asking for $8M

Posted by number9 on 26 July 2015 - 04:28 PM

Statistical analysts are hired to do this work. It's not like the coach is expected to be the one that does the math lol. This has no effect on on-ice training like you say. All it does is give them information on how to better utilize their players in specific situations. 

Math freaks ruined hockey

#2621566 Holtby Asking for $8M

Posted by Son of a Wing on 25 July 2015 - 03:35 PM

People always hate what they don't understand.

#2621576 Holtby Asking for $8M

Posted by kliq on 25 July 2015 - 05:21 PM

If I'm the GM and have to decide if I'm trading the advise of a professional scout or a mathfreak with MacBook pro excel sheet I don't even have to think twice about it. The thing with analytics is also that all of a sudden bloggers think they are experts when in fact all they are is excel and very talented mathguys with a ton of time on their hands. Orr sad it best it's a joke.

Believe it or not scouts have a god given talent to project prospects that's why they are paid well while everyone with high math and excel skills can create a blog and look at things in hindsight with graphs and formulas. When a guy like Travis Yost is writing about how his stats for prospects are prove of this and that then I can't help but think well if you know all that so well why aren't you working as a director of scouting for a NHL team ? The truth is scouts are picking the players, not math formulas ..Everyone can look back now and say stuff like why wasn't Zetterberg picked in the first round...Well scouts don't have that luxury neither do nhl teams


Leafs hired a stats guru as assistant GM, I guess only time will tell how it works out for them. did http://www.thestar.c...sistant_gm.html


Also, here is an article where Mike Babcock is firmly behind the use of stats. The reason why I bring this up is because I am pretty sure you have said many many of times that Babcock is the best coach in hockey, if true, shouldn't we take his opinion seriously and not dismiss them? No offense Frank, but I trust Babs opinion over yours any day.  http://redwings.nhl....s.htm?id=727102


Here is also a section from the article, clearly its not just the Leafs moving in this direction.


The Boston Bruins, Toronto Maple Leafs and New Jersey Devils this summer have hired or promoted from within executives with statistical backgrounds. Pittsburgh Penguins general manager Jim Rutherford has talked about how he will incorporate analytics into the team's front office. The Chicago Blackhawks and Los Angeles Kings have used analytics to win the Stanley Cup twice each in the past five seasons. St. Louis Blues coach Ken Hitchcock is on record saying he uses analytics as part of his decision-making process for match-ups and chemistry.