Posted by kipwinger
on 25 September 2016 - 04:02 PM
Maybe in the sense that it allowed him to play on the 2nd pair, but they pretty much never played together, if that's what you meant.
I think Lids actually think made Kronwall look worse because people point of comparison was one of the best Dmen of all time. I think Kronwall was a fine #1 when he first made the switch, but injuries have quickly taken him off that level in recent years.
Agreed. It's fashionable to paint Kronwall as a career #2 guy who was in above his head, but that definitely wasn't the case. His defense, point production, and powerplay contributions easily made him a legit #1 for a few years there. If you can man the powerplay, play 20+ minutes a night, and score 40+ points a season you're a legit top defenseman. Was he as good as Doughty, or Keith, or Subban? No, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a top guy.
Posted by joesuffP
on 24 September 2016 - 11:14 AM
Fans can't see the direction the team is heading. Their frustration doesn't allow them to perceive things objectively. The rebuild is happening right in front of us. As of now I think we have two great pieces in Larkin and Mrazek- potential core players of the future.
Well the presser was almost an hour long and sometimes a lecture in hockey-history while stumbling over his words so not that easy to follow. The problem is, whatever his definition of rebuild, retool or whatever he wants to do is simple: doing the same thing over and over again and hoping that some players may turn out way better than expected while others are getting more guaranteed top players, who - to quote Holland - are able to put a franchise on their backs is a gamble. All he has to do is look around the league and see the excitment Edmonton, Buffalo, Toronto and Florida and the Isles have with players like McJesus, Eichel, Matthews, Ekblad (whose a Michigan boy) and of course Tavares then you have Winnipeg with Scheifele and Laine. Hoping to find players of that caliber in the later rounds is like searching for a needle in a haycock.
Rebuild to me means handing over the keys to the young guns, let them learn from their mistakes and while doing so get better draft-picks in order to "speed up" the rebuild and get that player that can put a team on his back for many years to come. Of course it's unlikely to find another McJesus (that guy is flying over the ice and has magic hands) but according to Button there will be some very solid (potential) number 1 centers and defenders in the upcoming draft.
So I guess we are debating the re-build lol.
Doing the same things over and over again when you have had great success, is hard to argue against. The last time Holland did a re-build on the fly was when he had to transition from Yzerman, Shanny, Hull, Luc, Hasek, Fedorov, Larionov and others, and Holland did it successfully and won a Stanley Cup, almost 2.
This time, he is doing the same thing, but in a completely different system (ie. cap) which means you cannot do it as fast and it must be more youth based due to the cap.
Here is our top 20 that played most nights (12 Forwards, 6 D, 2 Goalies) in 2012, I will bold anyone who is no longer in our projected top 18 for 2016/17:
Assuming E and Miller get a starting spot (which is not a given), we have gotten rid of 13 guys. HUGE amount of turnover in just 4 years.
On our roster now we have Larkin, Mrazek, AA, Mantha?, Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, DD, Marchenko, with Jurco, Pulk, XO, and Sproul trying to break into the lineup and alot of top prospects in the minors led by Svechnikov and Mantha? in the waiting.
Without a question, Holland is re-building. Now, whether or not it is successful remains to be seen.
When the mandate from ownership is to keep your streak alive (dont kid yourself, Mr. I cares about this streak, it's his legacy), but you also have to re-build, that isn't the easiest task out there. I will say though, it can be a very efficient way of going about it as creating a culture of losing can be an awful thing (ask any Lions fan about this).
You talk about Edmonton, Buffalo, Toronto, Winnipeg, Florida and the Isles, but how much success has actually been obtained by any of these teams with their tank jobs? Who cares about message board/media hype, what matters is results on the ice. Edmonton has been a joke of a franchise since 2006, how many #1 overall picks and top #5 picks have they had and they still have not gotten into the playoffs. McDavid does appear to be on a different level, but if anyone could screw him up, it would be them. Buffalo has done nothing and have not made the playoffs in years, I think you over-hype Eichel a bit and put wayyyy to much pressure on the kid. Florida got in last year at a high seed, but were bounced early and until they can show consistency, I have a hard time seeing their transition as a success. Toronto and Winnipeg have done nothing, and while the Isles have been consistent in the regular season that past few years, have won 1 playoff series since 1993! I cant see how the Isles can be looked at in a higher light then Wings right now. The only thing the Isles have done that the Wings have not, is they got a #1 pick who they may lose in a year or two.
Now dont misinterpret me, I am not saying all of these teams are failing or are going to fail, what I am saying is that the teams you listed have not accomplished anymore then the Wings with their re-build. I know you only think a player can be great if he was taken top 5, but there is no reason not to think that Larkin will not be our #1 centre as like I have showed before, statistically speaking he is at the same level as Eichel.
Either way, we are going in circles. You want the Wings to get a top 5 pick and to bottom out, I do not. The only way to see if this re-build is working is to give it time. I hope you can see this.
When just making the playoffs is the #1 goal and middle of the road vets get 4+ year deals while talented prospects get stuck in roles that don't suit theirskills or in the minors, that's a culture of mediocrity.
There is no way the Wings brass and ownership don't care about winning a cup. Everyone here and in management/ownership want the same thing.
Every team in the history of sports has a decline at some point, clearly Wings fans are having a very hard time with this emotionally and cannot not take this team not being contenders. We were legit contenders for about 20 years, and have been mediocre for about 4-5 years. If things turn around and we become contenders again soon with this group of young players using the "overripe philosophy", this will be looked at as typical bump in the road that every team has to deal with. If the Wings are floating around the 8th seed for the next 5-6 years (like the Leafs 2006-2015), then yes its a problem. Despite what all the arm chair GM's think right now, only time will tell if Hollands rebuild on the fly plan will work.
Posted by krsmith17
on 20 September 2016 - 05:59 PM
Exactly how I feel, Detroit # 1 Fan. I want so bad for Sproul to come into camp and earn himself a spot in the lineup. I still think he has the potential to become a top 4, power-play quarterback. Khan among others have reported that he will likely be signing a one year deal sometime this week.
Either Holland is on board with the culture of mediocrity or he's allowing ownership to interfere. If it's the first he should be fired, if it's the second he should have the balls to tell them let me do my job or fire me. Then he has his choice of jobs on teams that want to win.
There is no "culture of mediocrity". Teams have down times. Deal with it.
Yes, moving on. Opinions are ours to have...I have mine, you have yours, noting asinine about it. End.
dont take the bait.
Its the off season and its boring, I am going to choose to take the bait again lol.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but what baffles everybody about yours in this instance is there is no fact, clues or logic about your opinion. It would be like me coming out randomly one day and saying "I think Larkin hates the Wings because Abby and Helm pick on him" then post comments all the time saying. "Well, if Abby and Helm keep this up, Larkin is going to leave", "I dont believe its all just dandy like you all think" etc.
Anyways, this is stupid. Can we please have hockey back!
We discussed it and mentioned opinions then a few days later you posted a picture bringing the topic back up again. You consistently do that with other topics too. When s*** is laid to rest you bring it back up and get a rise out of people. So yeah it's baiting. My responding to your baits isn't baiting you. It's exactly what it is. A respnse. And it's funny you think people are being sensitive but here you are writing a book on how people are attacking you etc etc etc. boo hoo..
If you're going to come out and say D and Z are warring with each other and coming up with conspiracy theories/rumors WITHOUT evidence, you're GOING to get called out and asked for proof. That's the real world. Without evidence and proof, there's no basis for anything you say. On the other hand, the rest of us expressed our opinions that they aren't warring, that they are best friends and provided legitamate sources on the matter. Anytime you want to come up with more theories, people will keep responding to it and most likely come up with sources to counter your claims. That's also what forums are about. Debating, debating, debating and backing it up. If it bothers you then maybe you shouldn't post. If you're going to stir the pot then you should be ready to debate on the matter. Don't take the easy way out and get all defensive.
Anyways I've said my piece. If the rumor of D and Z warring is brought up again, I'll be sure to respond to it and I'm sure others will too.
I was asking in the context of Nightfall's comment. I'm all for Cleary playing in GR and providing leadership - that's what he did last year - , but he's not replacing Hoggan's role if he was scratched for more than half the games last year. If he was injured last year then maybe he could be a vet captain type this year. Who knows the story? krsmith?
Yeah, he was injured for a while. Also missed some of the early season while contemplating retirement. Also, the AHL has a veteran limit. Can only play 5 vets (who have played 320 or more pro games) per game, so vets will sometimes rotate out.