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Member Since 17 Jul 2010
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#2523039 The Franzen Hate.

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 06 June 2014 - 03:43 PM


No, you're still playing games with contract amounts.  


You can't compare AAV on a single year basis as a barometer of what the expectations are.  These contracts are handed out at different times with the cap at different levels and the team in very different conditions.  A UFA signed on short notice in 2013 to fill the hole vacated by Flip is a very different situation than re-signing a roster player in 2009 that the Red Wings drafted.


You're completely ignoring that the Wings gave Franzen an 11 year contract.  The second longest contract in the history of the franchise.  You only do that with a player you want to be the core of your team.  If you look at quotes from the time I bet Holland says as much. 


Again, it all gets back to the point as to why people are content with someone with his size and ability underperforming.   Frankly I don't care what he's paid.  I'm not footing the bills.  If the Wings want to win more than one playoff game they need guys who compete night in and night out.  


Franzen has the size and skillset to be much better than he is.  Or more accurately be as good as he is at times more often.

Why are falsely claiming that "I'm playing games" and "shifting my argument?" We just disagree about what his contract says about his expected contribution to the team. Respect my view as I do yours. I'm putting up real numbers as support - I'm not playing with them. For me, the cap hit is all important in the cap world. 


Yes, he was signed for an 11 year contract - it says he meant to be a part of the team for a long time. We just disagree how large a part. I think, if he was expected to contribute closer to the level of Z and Dats then his cap hit would be closer to theirs. And yet many fans are always angry at him for not being at that level. It's understandable because of his stretches of great play. If he was that player consistently, though, he'd be paid much more.


Franzen needs to be better than he was this playoffs, but that can probably be said about every player on the team. Yet Franzen is the lightning rod for hate. Franzen is not one of the drivers of our bus - not paid like that, won't be that guy consistently. 

#2523005 The Franzen Hate.

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 06 June 2014 - 11:26 AM


Now you're shifting your argument.  Franzen was absolutely meant to be the #3 guy.  Not someone who helps out for stretches during the year.   Yes, Holland's cap circumvention keeps it from being an awful contract as long as the cap keeps going up (which it likely will).  But that doesn't change the expectation of him. 


During the regular season he is somewhat of a lower tier Datsyuk and Zetterberg.  During the playoffs however, Franzen is nowhere close anymore. 


I just don't get how people are content with a 6'3" 225 lb guy with the skill of Franzen who floats around, disappears for long stretches, and seems content with his performance.  Against Boston the Wings needed the Mule more than ever, and he was once again a no-show.

How so? The conversation started with someone saying he was the guy. I said he isn't. you brought in the idea of a #3 guy, - that still seems to denote that he's grouped in with Datsyuk and Zetterberg in terms of expectation.  I said his money shows he is expected to be a supporting cast member. That seems pretty consistent to me. 


As for the #3 guy thing, The money now shows that Weiss is expected to be more of a contributor than Franzen. Alfie was also above Franzen this past year. 


Also, to clarify. I'm not a huge fan of Mr. Mule. He's not certainly not a complete player, but he's not paid like a complete player. I just think the hate he get is over the top.

#2522962 The Franzen Hate.

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 05 June 2014 - 10:33 PM


He was supposed to be guy #3.   


He was given $43 million dollars.  the cap hit argument uses the car payment sales trick.  They don't ask how much you're looking to spend, they ask how much you can afford per month.   If you finance a $43,000 car for 11 years, the monthly payments don't look half bad.  That doesn't mean you're happy when it drives like a Chevy Malibu because the payments are the same size.


The fact is the Red Wings don't hand out 11 year contracts to players they only expect to help out in stretches during the year.   As far as I know the only player they've signed for longer than Franzen is the captain of the team.  And Z has more compete level in his beard than "Mule" has in his entire body. 

The contract is too long - i was a gamble and I'm sure the organization was hoping he continue being the playoff mule he'd been before and the contract could have been a steal if he had. But he was signed to be the tier lower than Dats and Zetterberg and he is that. The Cap hit shows that. And for that cap hit his production is good.


The car financing analogy really doesn't seem to be all that meaningful to me. I'm sure there are a lot of secondary players that will make around that much over an 11 year period - just not in one contract. To pick a name who's listed as a comparable to Franzen on capgeek, If Mike Fischer plays 4 more years after his current contract(after next year) at around 3.4 mil. (he will probably get more). he will have made 43 mill over 11 years. he'd be 38 at the end of that. Franzen will be 39 at the end of his contract.


The length of Franzen's contract just means that there's a risk that he declines to the point where he his production doesn't warrant the cap hit. The thing to think about with this, though, is that salaries will continue to go up so 3.9 mill in 2019 will definitely get a lower level player than it will now - so Franzen may not be overpaid that much at the end of his contract.

#2522943 The Franzen Hate.

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 05 June 2014 - 07:18 PM

He's not the guy. Zetterberg and Dats are the guys. Franzen helps out in stretches during the year. His cap hit is not of "the guy". he makes Bickell money, Hudler money, Briere money...

#2522350 Jeff Blashill close to signing an extension... Babcock talks starting

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 01 June 2014 - 07:03 PM

The Berensen comment was a joke and it was said in the context of: my daughter has one year left in high school so I have to stay in Detroit one year for that so, if I'm not with the wings, I'll go be Red's assistant. There's no way Babs would drop down to College level hockey - he's very competitive guy and surely wants to compete at the highest level.

#2521992 The Franzen Hate.

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 28 May 2014 - 05:23 PM

Top 6? Ok just some random numbers from the 2013/14 season. Rankings are just among forwards.


139th in Goals

112th is assists

335th in games played

102th in TOI/G

110th in face off win %

122nd in points

221st in hits

245th in blocked shots

289th in takeaways


Those are top 6 numbers for you? Ok if you take the truly generous position that there are 180 top 6 forwards in the NHL-which of course is just silly, then maybe you could find some way to say Franzen is a top 6 forward.

That's really kind of ridiculous. Franzen only played 54 games - of course he isn't going to rank near the top of the league. Because of the games missed, the only stats that mean anything are TOI/G where he's well above 180 and faceoff % where he is as well (even though he's not a centerman)


Now let's do it for Datsyuk:


GP: 549th

Goals: 126TH

Assists: 214TH

Points: 176TH

Goals: 126TH

assists: 214TH

Points: 176TH

+/-: 293RD


Are those the numbers of a #1 center and 7.5 million man? he just squeezes in the top 6. Let's get the pitchforks and charge them all out of town! This is fun 

#2520262 Canada can support 3 more teams in 20yrs

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 13 May 2014 - 06:06 PM


You want to look at MSA (or other aggregate measures like CMA for Canda) population when talking about the ability to support a team. While the city of Buffalo has a population of 259,384, the two county MSA (only US) has over 1.1 million people.


I don't see Saskatoon getting a team in the near future- the CMA has ~260,000 and less than .5 million when combined with Regina. While the games might sell-out, the corporate money and television broadcast rights would likely be too small. Canadian teams also have to deal with the USD exchange rate.


If there is another expansion, I hope to see a Seattle team and a Quebec City team.

Okay, if you look at those numbers, Quebec City is already larger than Winnipeg.


Quebec City: 765,706

Winnipeg: 730,018

Hamilton: 721,053


Hamilton is low but, like I said, it is about an hour away from Kitchener (477,160), St. Catherines (392,184), Brantford (135,501) and Toronto (5,583,064). Without including Toronto, that's 1,725,898. I believe Hamilton would be the safest bet. And, yes, I agree - say no to Saskatoon.


At the end of the day, though, you do have to ignore the number and look at level to which Hockey is present in the culture of an area. If you only look at the numbers, why wasn't Atlanta (MSA: 5,522,942) a slam dunk and was is Florida struggling  (Miami: 5,828,191)


If you go to Quebec City during the winter, there's outdoor rink on like every other block (slight exaggeration, but only slightly). The answer people always give back is: but they had team and it failed. From everything I've read, the financial problems were due to the fact that they couldn't get English media deals (and, therefore, english TV audiences) and couldn't get corporate backing for a new arena. Media is certainly very different than 1995. The Canadian sports media goes crazy over any Canadian team now and I'm sure CBC or TSN would be all over a deal. Hell, CBC even shows games in Punjabi so I'm sure they'd want to serve English Nordique fans. As for financial backing, the municipality is building them a rink and there's not even a team yet so clearly there's money to back them. 


Also, the Canadian dollar argument isn't as meaningful as it used to be since the CAN dollar has been pretty high for quite a while.

#2519975 Regner: Next year could be Babcock's last

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 10 May 2014 - 07:56 PM



I know he is a good coach, but I grow tired of his lineup decisions. Remember, he only played the kids because he was forced to due to injury. If Cleary hadn't been injured, he damn sure would have been in the lineup. Look how Bertuzzi kept getting in, even though the kids were outplaying him.


bring in Larionov.

That's not true. Cleary was scratched before he was injured. Bertuzzi only got in 1 playoff game when no one was looking effective. He was playing before late in the season because we were missing pretty much everyone and the kids were still in the lineup so he wasn't taking their spots.


Beware of the grass on the other side.

#2519626 So what do we have to trade?

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 07 May 2014 - 03:17 PM


helm and Glendening. Physically they are twins. both about 5-11/195. On the ice they are very similar. Helm a little faster, Glendening a little grittier. Both play the same position: checking line C. Glendening is 2 years younger and about 1.5 million cheaper. I would keep Glendening and use Helm in a trade to fill our 2 major holes.

I really don't think Helm and Glendening are similar at all. Helm got 12 goals in 42 games this season and has really started to show some offensive ability. Secondary scoring is essential to team success - especially on a team that is starving for offence. Also, of course, he's been a great PKer. Helm can move up and down the line up 2nd line to 4th line. He's also been around for a while and in the age group of players that hopefully are becoming leaders for us. He shows incredibly hard work and that should be an example for the rest of the team. Yes he's been injured, but I think he's unmovable unless it's a huge return.


I like Glendening, but he's only shown defensive abilities. Great at shutting down stars and PK, but I really don't know how you can see these 2 as similar players. 


If Weiss works out as 2nd line center, then we do he have 1 too many centers and one of Sheahan, Helm, and Glendening would have to be moved to the wing or else they could become expendable. It would be a hard decision since I like them all.


Oh, and Andersson, Miller, Tootoo(who will be bought out), Kindl, Lashoff(though good 7th D) are expendable, but I really don't know how much he'd get in return


I Like Smith, Dekeyser, E, Kronwall on Defence. If 2 young guys grab roster spots then we have some tradeable D prospects 

#2519256 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 05 May 2014 - 11:46 AM

Sign both Morris and Boyle. Let Q, Smith, Kindl and Lashoff walk or trade them for picks at the draft. Kronwall-E, Boyle-Dek, Morris-Kids.

I thought Smith played really well in the second half of the season and the playoffs. I really have no idea why you'd want to get rid of him. 

#2519211 Now some gritty forwards.

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 04 May 2014 - 10:35 PM

I dunno.....I don't think anything will happen - it's just how Holland is.


IMHO - if the Wings want some size, and toughness - why not spend more time scouting the WHL/OHL/QMJHL?


Instead of drafting some kid in the 3rd round who's 5'10" 160 lbs soaking wet from the Czech Republic - why not take take the kid from Edmonton, Alberta who's 6'4" 215 lbs with a penchant for gritty play? 











Show me the undersized "soft euro"


Mitch Wheaton almost fits your demands almost exactly except that he's 13 pounds heavier and he's from Sherwood Park, Alberta. 

#2518749 Wings will buy out Tootoo, not Franzen.

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 01 May 2014 - 06:21 PM

Franzen had some very good stretches this year. I'm not a big fan of his or anything like that, but I think it's interesting that no one wants to give him any slack given that he was out for significant time with a concussion. He still put up 41 pts in 54 games.


I really don't want to start up the Hossa vs. Franzen debate, but I checked out the salary situations since others were bringing up Hossa name again. At the end of his deal in 2020-21, Hossa is going to be a 42 year old with a 5.2 million cap hit. Franzen will 40 at the end of his deal in 2019-20 with a 3.9 cap hit. Both of those deals will include a feeling of regret to some degree in the last couple of years. Draw your own conclusions for which one would be worse to be tied to.


Jagr is 42 and Selanne is 43, but its rare to as effective at that age as those two and both had a cap hit of 2 million. (yes, jagr's deal had some deferred bonuses or something)

#2518747 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 01 May 2014 - 05:42 PM

Nothing against Alfie but when some young guys needed to be in team he shouldn't of been signed. Remember the reason why we made the playoffs? The old and useless were hurt and not playing going the young guys a shot. Several of which should've been up since day one.

Also since you're defending holland. Why did he sign Sammy and colo to two years? Why sign tootoo for three just to waste a buyout in him in his third year?

It's always easy to say that we got in because of what happened at the end of the year, but Alfie put up points in the middle of the year and helped win games then. Alfie certainly contributed to us getting in the playoffs. 


the only young guys that were projected to be on the team at the beginning of the year were Tatar and Nyquist. If you want to blame older players for keeping them off look to Cleary, Sammy, or maybe Bertuzzi not Alfie.

#2518307 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 29 April 2014 - 10:49 PM

Didn't know where to post this, but in this article Weiss says he was battling the hernia even before game 1. This gives credence what many have said - that we haven't seen the real Weiss.




Would be huge if he can be a big player for us next year.


...and, on the subject of older injury prone players, nobody is talking about possibly adding Gaborik. Obviously, the reticence is understandable with some of our recent experiences with signing vets. But, If we were able to sign him for a 1 year deal though, would it be a good move? If he still battles injury then it's just an excuse to bring up Mantha/Jurco (if he's sent down).


Since his last injury, he's shown he's still productive: with Kings:

19GP 5-11-16

and 3G 1A in 6 playoff games so far.


He's 32, only 2 years older than Moulson and Vanek, and will demand less than those two. 

#2515769 A plea to Holland.

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 25 April 2014 - 12:17 PM



Here's an article from Justin Bourne (don't know much about him, doesn't really matter anyway) who pretty much described what I was talking about above, but better and with graphs! Our biggest problem right now is scoring. This illustrates quite nicely why that is.





And our only current players in their goal-scoring prime....

Justin Bourne apparently doesn't know how to read graphs. Age 22 is clearly higher than Age 29. Am I missing something? It seems to me that would make the prime 22-29 scoring age. That would include all of Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, etc.