it makes me laugh how such a big body like Kindl acts like his 5'9 on the ice but again I concure with krsmith I think what you see is what you get with him I too would rather look at kindl and lashoff as are number 7
maybe even Sproul if he is better off in the preseason but again you cant predicted how they would be
I agree with u that u can't really predict, but that's also why I'm willing to be open minded about Kindl. Just one PO series ago he was solid for us. I'm not wiling to let last season taint his entire future for us just yet.
Lashoff is serviceable as a 6th/7th d-men on a team with a weak defense. I like his contract, but other than that he's quite literally a plug.
I'm willing to give Kindl one more chance just because of Ericsson. Everyone around here hated him and said there was no more room left to grow (including me), now look at him.
Lashoff has just never shown streaks of brilliance. Again, I like him as a 6-7 guy, but I don't think that's bringing enough to even worth mentioning. He's not offensively gifted. He's not fast. He's not physical. He plays ok defense. He's like Andersson. pluggy and expendable once his contract runs out.
Kindl I'm willing to roll the dice on one last time, but after this season all faith is gone.
This forum is going to be something regardless of what happens.
If Mantha plays 40 games and has 15 goals it won't be:
"Awesome, this kids the real deal and our future is secure. Way to go Holland and staff for drafting this guy!!!!"
It will be: " f*** you Kenny for signing Cleary and Quincey and letting Hossa go and not giving me a team as tough as Calgary and for not signing Niskanen"
Some dudes on here have spent to much time building their opinions and reputations and dealing in absolutes. Whatever happens this year, people are goin to feel the need to spin it whatever way they need to in order to back-up their zealousness.
Truth. IDK why my expectations were so high. I should know by now.
Even if we were to win the cup this year, immediately afterwards it would be "This core is aging quickly, I predict hard times coming, Holland has failed to prepare us, he can't even get rid of Kindl, and Franzen sucks Hossa rules."
I have no doubt that Babcock and Holland chat now and then about potential player moves and Babcock provides input, etc. However, beyond that, I have no idea how much influence Babcock actually has on the players that make it to the team at the end of the day. He may have a lot of influence, he may have very little. The fact of the matter is, no one on this site knows how much or how little influence he has either (unless you or someone you are close with is part of the GM's office).
Same could be said about final roster. Typically the GM brings in the players and then it's the coaches job to pick the final roster from that overall group of players and then also make call up decisions when needed, etc. The GM is obviously going to have some input in that process, but again, how little or how much is likely not known by most.
You can try and minimize my point all you want. Of course none of us really know the inner workings of the Red Wings organization. But to think that a GM doesn't ask his head coach what he wants, who he wants, and who he could do without, and that, that doesn't heavily influence the players he chases is kind of insane.
Obama might be at the head of the Military, but when there's a battle to be fought he doesn't just go buy some tanks and send them, he asks his general(s) what they need/want and acts accordingly.
Holland and all his scouts can sit down and agree that the team needs more 4th line fighter types... but if Babcock won't play a guy like that then there's no sense in signing one despite what you and your personnel tell yourselves.
It'd be like commissioning a sculptor to make a work of art for you, and then giving him paints and oils to work with. The guy might be a real good artist, but that piece is gonna suck.
If I'm Holland, Babs has a ton of sway in my personnel choices. Now his needs/wants may not be feasible due to availability of players, financial concerns, and my long-term vision for the team, but I'd do my best to cater to my coach within those limitations.
EDIT: Managment also consults Datsyuk and Zetterberg on players as well. Fischer mentioned recently that after training camp they're going to hear boths opinions on Mantha. Holland is not some insane puppeteer. There's a giant organization of guidance and opinions beneath him.
Thank you that's exactly my point. You may not agree with everything I have said, but your view on what some fans are saying, is the point I am trying to make.
A large chunk of Red Wings fans hate the fact they we are currently going through a re-build, and have a hard time accepting that we are not currently cup contenders. They look at everything Holland does under a microscope, and when he does something they do not agree with (ie. Cleary signing, Quincy signing, Legwand trade) they call for his head. While Babcock who overall people are happy with right now, may have the same opinions as Holland, but at the end of the day only gets a few people slightly disagreeing/mad at him, never the outrage that is currently being pointed at Holland, nor do I think he should. Babcock has done one heck of a job in Detroit, especially last year with all the injuries.
I fully realize that Holland is the GM, Babcock is the coach, and the roster is Holland's responsibility, but my point is that people are overly critical of Holland right now due to the re-build.
The only thing I disagree with you on is your verbiage of "makeshift/transitional/mediocre/insert your preferred term rosters and kept them competitive" as I look at what Holland has been doing a re-build, but one in where he is maintaining competitiveness (please don't mistaken competitiveness with contending) during it, rather then doing an Edmonton and getting rid of everyone. IMO a much smarter way to do it.
The problem I have is I think you're both grossly underestimating how much Babcock influences the roster. He's routinely expressed his desire to have Cleary on the team, he had words with Weiss before he gave his stamp of approval on signing him, etc. etc.
Ken and Babs have always expressed that they have a great working relationship and go to one another for input and advice. Which I assume means mostly Holland going to Babcock for opinions on players. To think that Babcock does not have heavy say on his roster comes off to me as a little naive. Holland very much had his own opinion, and his word is final, but his decisions are also very much influenced by what he's told by his scouts and coaches.
As a Detroit fan, if I had a bajillion dollars (I don't, I'm from Detroit) I would immediately buy a 2nd Toronto franchise just to beat the leafs and win a cup before them and watch all of Ontario implode.
Semin is not, and never was the answer. That guy who did the Wings AMA on reddit (take it for what it's worth) indicated that the Wings were interested in signing a certain Russian winger a few years back (some say it could have been Radulov, but it was most likley Semin) and when they asked Datsyuk if he would babysit/workwithhim, Pavel gave a big fat NO.
Even if that's all made up I still don't want him. Semin would last exactly one season, if that, with Babcock. Franzen actually plays defense, despite what his detractors here will tell you.
Some people are saying andersson is better than disney.com. That is nonsense. Andersson can't shut down top lines and frustrate an entire team the way disney.com does, to me he is worth keeping on the fourth line just because he aggravates people. 4th liners shouldn't be expected to go out and score a bunch of goals. It's a checking line for a reason. He works hard, plays gritty and throws people off their game.
I honestly think he does none of that. He plays positional D with very little grittiness. He's more expendable than Cleary IMO. the fact that he's young is the only reason I feel like keeping him around at this point.