number9

Made this handy little spread sheet. it covers the 5 of our top 6 forwards that are signed for next season. has the names, ages, and 3 stats for each year from 2008 through 2012. Those stats are: GP=games played, PTS=points, and shts=shoots on goal. Black numbers are no change or improved, red numbers are declines.
Name----Age--------------------2008         2009              2010              2011              2012          
--------------------------------GP  PTS  shts  GP  PTS  shts  GP  PTS  shts  GP  PTS  shts  GP  PTS  shts  

Zetterberg--32-------------75  92  358  77  73  309  74  70  309  80  80  306  82  69  267  

Datsyk----34---------------- 82  97  264  81  97  248  80  70  203  56  59  137  70  67  164    

Franzen----33---------------72  38  199  71  59  246  27  21  91  76  55  248  77  56  211    

Burtuzzi----37---------------68  40  121  66  44  127  82  44  216  81  45  138  71  38  118    

Cleary---34------------------63  42  177  74  40  163  64  34  140  68  46  192  75  33  199

Now for some follow up. Of the 15 numbers for each player, dat has 9 reds. meaning he is declinging just about every year, in just about every catagory. it would be worse but his numbers this year are improved over 2011 when he was hurt. But his 2012 numbers are worse than his 2010 numbers. Second in red numbers is Z. he has 7 out of 15 in red. Cleary has 6 out 15 in red. Burt also has 6 out of 15 in red. franzen has declined the fewest times. Only 5 red numbers. The number that stands out to me the most, is dat's decline in shots. In 2008 he took 264 shots. Then followed by 248, 203, 137, and finally 164 this past year. Granted he played 12 fewer games, but he had 103 fewer shots! That is a 38% drop!

None of us want to se a bad RW team. We all want to win Cups every year. But we also have to face facts. The fact is we need to find our next pair of great forwards that can lead us for the next 10 years. We started this run with Yzerman and federov, then continued it with dat and Z. No where in our organization do we have 2 guys that are potential 80 point per year guys. This is Holland's big challenge. Do we trade? Sign FA's? move up in the draft somewhere?
My personnel opinion is they need to be C's. A wing by himself can't do it. A good sniper-like parise is, can't score if no one can get him the puck. One last thing. Please understand the difference between good and great. dat and Z are still good players. They are not great players anymore. They will continue to work hard, provide leadership, and score 60 to 75 points for a few more years. But they are not guys that can carry a team anymore. help carry yes, but we have to find the next pair to do the heavy lifting.


Chart was fixed, loaded poorly.....

Didn't you already over sing this tune on another thread...like...a couple days ago? No matter, I'll happily present you the real truth again.

First off, Cleary and Bertuzzi CAN play in the top 6, but they will likely see time in both the bottom and top 6 to make room for our YOUNG players (yes despite your oversights we do have them). We also may add another top 6 forward like Parise through FA this year which would also force those two into the bottom 6.

Now let's look at scoring percentage...since injuries will inherently impact and flaw all the stats you chose.

Datsyuk (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 118%
2008/2009 = 119%
2009/2010 = 87% - down year
2010/2011 = 105%
2011/2012 = 95%

Zetterberg (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 122%
2008/2009 = 94%
2009/2010 = 94%
2010/2011 = 100%
2011/2012 = 84% - down year

Franzen (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 52% - down year
2008/2009 = 83%
2009/2010 = 77%
2010/2011 = 72%
2011/2012 = 72%

Cleary (In and out of the Top 6)
2007/2008 = 66%
2008/2009 = 54%
2009/2010 = 53%
2010/2011 = 67%
2011/2012 = 44% - down year (nagging injury)

Bertuzzi (In and out of the Top 6)
2007/2008 = 58%
2008/2009 = 66%
2009/2010 = 53%
2010/2011 = 55%
2011/2012 = 53%

Those numbers are the definition of strong top 6 players and VERY consistent play.... 87% (Datsyuk) 84% (Zetterberg) are also arguably not AT ALL down years for a top 6 forward. Yet, because Datsyuk and Zetterberg are among the top 10 forwards in the league (offensively AND defensively, and yes even at this age) we'll call those down years for them You also conveniently left Filppula, Nyquist, and Hudler out of your evaluation....Those are 3 young players who WILL be on this team next year. (Hudler the only one who may get cut, but who would be likely replaced by an upgrade anyway)

Nyquist (In and out of the Top 6)
2011/2012 = 38%

Filppula (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 46%
2008/2009 = 50%
2009/2010 = 63%
2010/2011 = 54%
2011/2012 = 81% - (break out year?)

Hudler (In and out of the top 6)
2007/2008 = 51%
2008/2009 = 69%
2009/2010 = did not play
2010/2011 = 50%
2011/2012 = 61%

Hate to burst your bubble but we have one of the highest scoring and most capable Top 6's in the league....And players like Nyquist/Filpulla/Hudler are getting better and taking on larger roles in the Top 6, While Datsyuk and Zetterberg continually show us Lidstrom-like ageless play....And even if we add no one to the top 6 this offseason...that still leaves us with 8 players who are capable of playing in the top 6...

While our team does have its problems and things that should be modified, the fact is the problem is not Datsyuk or Zetterberg......Your whole argument seems to rest on the fact that you think we need All-stars like Yzerman/Federov and Datsyuk/Zetterberg in order to win cups.....Guess what? It's not about the name on the back, it's about the logo on the front. This is a TEAM game, and no player or pair of players can carry any team to a cup....We need a well rounded team with all the right role-players and leaders....and right now we need size and grit in the bottom 6, a back up goalie, and maybe a sniper....not a new Datsyuk or Zetterberg

Where is crymson when you need him to knock some sense into people

This made me LOL.

..,.,.,.sureeeeeee well u wanna elaborate there buddy? cause its well known we have a plethora of great young prospects and many will be shooting for roster spots in the next 4 seasons....so i fail to see ur point....if u even had one

Could we have used more goals from the top 6?...sure, but it isn't why we lost.
You need more than your top 2 lines to win a playoff series as Nashville showed us. They got over 50% of their scoring from their bottom 6
The Wings scored 248 goals this year

132 came from the top 6 for 53%.of their goals
the defence contributed 49 for 20%
the bottom 6 kicked in 67 for 27%


In the playoffs

The top 6 accounted for 67% of scoring
The defence 11%
and the bottom 6 contributed 22%

.Nashville's bottom 6 shredded our bottom 6 both offensively and defensively, also the scoring from our defence disappeared. That is the reason we lost the series.

dont even bother....some wont ever get it

Eaves was out all year. He wasn't a problem being gone. If it really was a major issue Holland would have picked someone up at the deadline. he didn't. tells you all you need to know. As for Z and Datsyk, they kill penalties all year long. They have their entire careers. This is not a new thing. Yes having Helm might have added a goal or 2 from the bottom 2 lines. But guess what, he is coming back, so not an issue. The real issue remains the top 2 lines. franzen, Z and datsyk didn't score. neither did Burt or Franzen. Filppula never does. Hommer didn't. Hudler didn't. 2 of them are already gone. 2 can't be moved. One other issue that will be new for us this hear, is no front of the net guy anymore. Hommer-maybe the best ever at it is gone. Neither Franzen nor Burt are any good at it, nor is Parise btw. But all of those guys were healthy, and they didn't do their jobs. The part we don't know is, is this the new norm or just a one off thing? Go back and re=watch the palyoff series. Yes it is painfull....... But none of these guys could create any space to score. Without space, you don't have time. Without time, you rarely score.

Do you listen to the words coming out of your mouth? Our second best penalty killer being out is not, not a problem. You must not remember but Babs was PISSED that Holland didn't add anyone to the bottom 6 at the deadline. Pavs and Z typically only kill big penalties....like when were up by 1 in the 3rd. Eaves, Helm, Miller, Abby, and Cleary take the rest. You must not understand Hollands style either because he does not just add people willy nilly....He almost never makes lopsided trades or goes after guys unless there a perfect fit, contractually and athletically. On top of that he thinks 10 steps ahead....like trading away Commodore to keep roster spots open for Dekeyster or someone else...My guess as to why he didn't add anyone is because there's probably someone he wants who will be an FA soon or hes saving money to make a run at Parise or Suter or something. Again, he thinks 10 steps ahead....he doesn't want to win one cup now....he wants to win 3 in the next 10 seasons.

I have no idea why you are obsessing about space. I understand your logic and the space argument...space is important....but we get plenty of it. Our top 6 is not a problem (though I would like to see a pure sniper better than Hudler amongst them). Our top 6 had a much better scoring percentage going into the series than Nashvilles top 6 and they had plenty of space to work....we out shot them 160 to 116 over the series.


game 5 22-25 (SF/SA)
game 4 41-17
game 3 43-22
game 2 17-26
game 1 37-26

You sir need to go rewatch that series....yes it's painful cause we lost and I remember a few painful goofs we made....but overall we played pretty darn good series, we just got really unlucky at times. We couldnt get a good bounce to save our lives, Rinne played amazing while Howie was average, we had zero checking lines to create energy and no third scoring line...while they had 2 big checking lines and 1 of those lines could also score. And we had Dats and Z focused on defense cause Helm, Eaves, and Cleary couldnt be utilized.

Guys like Zetterberg and Franzen are some of the best playoff producers in the league....this just wasnt their year...you cant win em all. Sorry but it has nothing to do with space bud.

Exactly and that problem is compounded by how much time the Wings spent shorthanded during the playoffs. They had so many penalties and spent so much time short handed, while having Helmer and Patty out with injuries (they were our two highest forwards at PK TOI/G). That PK time had to come from somewhere. Dats went from 1:13 shorthanded TOI/G in the regular season to more than double that at 2:47 TOI/G in the playoffs (Hank had a more reasonable increase from 1:04 in the regular season to 1:47 in the playoff but still a significant increase).

Oh god yeah. Dont let me forget all the penalties we took.....even if we had Helm and Eaves and Cleary at 100% those penalties were so unlike us and were basically shooting us in the foot.

So our sleeper cell scotty is finally paying off....excellent excellent....we shall cause dissension in their ranks and destroy them from within muahahhaha

But  it isn't  a strainght up question. Suter and Widmen  have very similier numbers. Suter gets  more  pub becasue  he is  an american and  is  the son of  a HOF. But if the question becomes do I  sign wideman  for5 million per  year or Suter  for  7.5 million  per  year, I take  Wideman every time. Allows  meto speed in  other  places and make  the team deeper and better overall.



This was the first timein years  that Datsyk, Z and  franzen were  all healthy going intothe playoffs. yes  helm was  out. But D wasn't  our  problem. Scoring  was. How  does  the 3rd  line checking  center  being  out hurt  Z, datsyk, and  Franzen?  It didn't.  All of  which are permier  scorers. 30+  goal  per  season guys. They didn't  score, becassue  they didn't  have room. room  is  created by a big forward on their  lines opening  space for  them. That is what didn't  happen,and  why we lost to  a worse  team in 5 games.  But enough with the past.  time to look  towards 2012/2013.

Suter does not get more pub because of his nationality or father LOL. He is a better player...plain and simple...especially on D. Do you even watch hockey? Its not all about numbers guy.

Hmmmmm how on earth would 2 penalty killers and another defensive forward being at 50% hurt Dats and Z?.... Who do you think is going to kill penalties while those guys can't? Babcock literally said during the playoffs "I hate having Helmer and Eaves out because that means I have to use Hank and Pavel for defensive assignments when I'd rather have them focused on offense." paraphrased of course.

Now who is talking about prospects? You do realize that for everyone that makes it, there are 20+ that don't right? Most of those guys are 3+ years from even be considered. heck half of them have yet to play a professional game. Yes we drft and develop well. But what does that mean? We have what, 15 guys on our roster that we drafted? In a span of 20+ years. Think about that. That is less than 1 pick per draft ever turns out. Ok we traded a couple. But not that many. Maybe dat and Z play their whole career here. I have no issue with it if 1. they produce and 2. their pay matches their production. But in both cases their ends are far closer than you want to realize. They are also dropping faster than you seem willing to accept. Fact is the RW are the second oldest team in the NHL-based on the 2011/12 season. Heck babcock said it best after the playoffs "we seem to be headin in the wrong direction". His words-paraphrased, not mine.

Smith and Nyquist pretty much already made the team. Sheahan and Andersson are nearly there. Jarnkrok, Tatar, and Jurco are expected to be part of the team in the next few years. And Ouellet and Marchenko are being called huge steals like Datsyuk was. Thats about 9 guys who you can put your money on to make it in the next 1 to 4 seasons. Then you have our other 20+ prospects...and lets says worst comes to worst and only 3 of them make it. Now you have about 10 or 11 guys makin it. But lets also not forget that over the next 4 seasons, while our current prospects are fighting for roster spots, we will also draft another 30 to 36 prospects. Lets say only 3 of those guys make it in that 4 year time span. Now you have around 14 guys makin it in the next 4 seasons.....but lets assume everything goes terribly wrong cause we draft horribly (which we dont) and my figure of 14 is cut in half....that means 7 guys. thats still 1 man more than an entire defensive squad, and 1 man more than half a forward squad. Still not satisfied? Lets also not forget those 1st round picks we dont need....we can trade those away for whatever young players on other teams you envy so much and use them to fill holes. And dont forget free agency! The Hossa's (Parise) and Rafalski's (Suter) of the world need somewhere to go. And FA's love us because we DONT trade away guys like Nick, PAV, or Z, just because they are EXPIERENCED. And even if we don't get Parise or Suter we'd probablly get some more Ian White kind of guys and turn them into a top notch players like we always do..............or then again we could just blow the team up and trade away the 2 best 2-way forwards in the league to get someone who doesnt play nearly as good defense and costs probablly a million or two more than Pav and Z do. And in the process ruin our reputation as a franchise that sticks by our guys, and less FA's will want to play here.

Bottom line is if you think anyone on this team is too old (besides Homer) and that being old is a problem, your crazy (see: Nick Lidstrom, Brendan Shanahan, Chris Chelios, Domink Hasek, ect.). Veterans provide a world of leadership to the team, help develop our up and coming prospects, and are just plain smarter and more experienced than other players out there. Our family style has created a culture of winning. Panicking and blowing up the team is not only short-sighted but completely moronic and against everything our franchise has worked to cultivate. Remember 2006? We went out in the first round just like this year and people panicked and said blow the team up. Luckily Hollands cooler head prevailed and he didn't do something stupid....2 years later we won the cup. This is not a 1 and done team like Chicago....people like you are only thinking about the the present while Holland is 5 steps ahead of you. Hes got plans for 2016 already I'm sure. He's like Lidstrom, he makes very few mistakes....and theres a reason he sticks by our guys. Love my wings.

Evcery team rebuilds. The question is which is faster? Either way you do drop off. But do you wait untill everyone has retired-and get NOTHING for them? Or move them and get something back that can be part of your next upswing. We had a 15 year run that was awesome! 95-2010 there was no one better. Not even close. But now it is time to get the pieces for the next great run.
No we are very very competive. we just got beat in the 1st round. We didn't win our division. As for datsyk, is he is healthy he is going to make more than he does now. 36 year olds are guys you fill in holes with, not build around. he is already slowing down over the past five years. Injuries are becoming more common. If we could move him, yes I would. But like I said, not for prospects. I look for guys in the league just comming into their prime.

Dude your either living in fantasy land or NHL12 lol....The Wings are a dignified, respectable, classy organization. And we got that way by letting our players retire as wings. We dont get nothing for that either...players like nick give us 20+ years of dedicated loyal service. What more do you want man!?!?!? and so will players like datsyuk and zetterberg and so on. They are not common whores that get traded away as soon as they turn 35.... They are Wings. They were born Wings and they will die Wings....Even at their ripe old ages they play a 360 degree game that most "proving themselves up and coming players" will never ever achieve or even dream of. We are one of the most respected and successful organizations in all of sports because we DONT do what you are talking about. Theres a reason why in the players poll the majority of players voted that the organization theyd most like to play for is Detroit...we turn boys into legends...put rings on their fingers...then retire them and give em a job behind the scenes...its been workin since 97 and we aint changin it now....remeber 2001, 2003, and 2006? OH NOOOO BLOW UP THE TEAM!!!!! WELL NEVER WIN AGAIN WITH THESE SHMUCKS!!!! (championship in 2002 and 2008).......if ur really so worried about our Vets (not sure ive ever been worried about veteran wings) and our future, then see: Smith, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Jarnkrok, Sheahan, Mrazek, Andersson, Pulkkinen, Ouellet, Sproul, Tvrdon, Ferraro, Quine, Callahan, Marchenko.....need i say more? our farm is stacked and were almost ready to harvest again....no need to aquire the up and coming leinos and semins of the world. Hockey is different then NHL12 friend.

at this point id like to reiterate a previous posters statement....soooooo glad kenny is running this team

Just wondering peoples thoughts about the next coach, when that time comes. No babcock isn't leaving anytime soon. But sooner or later he will. Be it retire or whatever. So who are the young coaches that you would like to see here down the road?

Well by the time babs is gone all the young coaches won't be young anymore...wayyyyy too soon to say anything about this

Wow I didn't even think of rooting against them cause we could ****** their players this offseason if they lose. Makes sense though! Funny thing is I've been rooting against these teams anyway lol.

Dislike NJ because they run a bad organization over there if you ask me (kovies salary) and I like Philly cause they run a great franchise. So many good and interesting trades and their impressive youth movement....plus I was rooting for them against the Pens so I figure I might as well continue lol.

Dislike Nash cause they beat us this year...Like PHX cause they seem to do so much with so little. Despite their franchise's financial issues they always seem to pull together as a team and play that cohesive team game I love. They have some stars but no real superstars.

Dislike Caps cause they have shown to me they are choke artists and I HATE lazy russians....Reallyyyyy like the Rangers. Original six pride. Plus what a great team they've put together....Tough, skilled, fast, deep, hardworking, strong leaders (Callahan is the F'ing man!) and the skilled youth you often find in a strong cup run.

Tack on STL to teams I'm rooting against. Divisional rival and their fans arrogance has really steamed my beans. Actually liked the team they put together at the beginning of the season, but now they think they're the hottest s*** on the block now that they had 1 good season. Wings know the regular season dont matter and track records speak volumes....Also want to see 8th seed Kings upset everyone lol.

Doing the exact same thing he's done the past 3 games, killing penalties, working in the corners, battling and basically being his usual workhorse type player he's been. I'm now incredibly confident you don't watch hockey.

oh i think that much is CLEAR(Y). anyone who knows hockey (watches or plays a lot) wouldn't have an irrational hatred for Cleary....maybe huds LOL but def not danny boy

I have honestly been so scared to play nashville for a while now....with all their trade deadline acquisitions and radical radulov coming back I've been like danggggg their gonna be that much better. All the analysts are picking them to beat us and many of them chose nash to go to the finals.

then i looked at their roster today

Erat-Legwand-Radulov------------ 118 pts in 158 games (75%) weakness: Radulov's defense
Kostitsyn-Fisher-Kostitsyn-------- 106 pts in 166 games (64%) strength: Kostitsyn chemistry
Hornquist-Wilson-Smith----------- 114 pts in 216 games (53%) strength: depth, an effective 3rd scoring line
Halischuk-Gaustad-Tootoo------- 62 pts in 164 games (38%) strength: very strong checking line that can score

Suter-Weber--------------------------- 95 pts in 157 games (60%) strength: offensively and defensively sound
Ellis-Gill--------------------------------- 16 pts in 55 games (29%) strength: Gill's big body
Klein-Josi------------------------------- 37 pts in 118 games (31%) strength: depth, 3rd pairing that can score

Filppula-Datsyuk-Franzen---------- 189 pts in 228 games (83%) strength: defensively sound and playoff Franzen
Hudler-Zetterberg-Bertuzzi--------- 157 pts in 234 games (67%) strength: Zetterberg's defense and Bertuzzi's big body...weakness: Hudler's defense
Holmstrom-Helm-Cleary----------- 83 pts in 217 games (38%) strength: Helm's defense...weakness: Holmstrom's and Cleary's skating
Abdelkader-Nyquist-Miller---------- 54 pts in 179 games (30%) strength: Nyquist's skill

Lidstrom-White------------------------ 66 pts in 147 games (45%) strength: Lidstrom's defense and leadership
Kronwall-Stuart------------------------ 57 pts in 163 games (35%) strength: defensively sound and Kronwall's offense
Quincey-Ericsson--------------------- 14 pts in 87 games (16%) strength: Ericsson's big body

Nashville advantage: more depth both offensively and defensively
Detroit advantage: better top 6 and loads more playoff experience

If we are going to win this series our top 6 needs to outplay theirs and we need to match their point production from the backend......we also need to neutralize Suter and Weber, their biggest strength.

To do this I believe Smith should play to increase backend production, and we also need to get Quincey to turn it on.....Nyquist should play in the top 6 in order to add even more skill to the top 6, and send Bertuzzi down to make a more effective checking/energy line....and Homer should indeed play, anything that keeps Suter and Weber busy is good.

When all is said and done, we are a playoff team. They are not. We have way more experience and it needs to show.

GO WINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Says he's going to play... WTF. You're at 50% you fricken moron, you're doing more harm than good!!!! I'm livid.

haha

Fricken moron Cleary! Grrrrrrr he makes me livid! Why doesnt he just go over the coaches head and sit himself??? honestly....I hate guys who nut up and power through injuries when the coaches ask them to play on it! Those guys are the worst! Lets trade all our injured players for someone decent like Gomez....guys who r injured always play so crappy....i wonder why? lets just buy Cleary out already

THANK YOU FOR A POSITIVE THREAD!!!! GO WINGS!!!

Who is a Cleary lover here?  Who has stated they love Cleary?

Pretty much everybody gets that it stinks that he is struggling probably primarily because of being injured, but only a select few thinks he has stunk from minute one on the extreme end.

The only people that say stuff like *insert player's name* lovers are the ones that have an extreme disliking of the guy with negative bias alone.  That's not really all that objective either.

Someone on LGW loves Cleary???? How could this be?? Who is it???  Didn't they hear NBC explain how Cleary shoulda been cut years ago? I'm amazed the guy is still in the NHL actually after reading this thread. He's seriously terrible. I think its a bit odd that the hockey team with the best eye for talent in the whole league would ever even consider him...quite strange. I mean its not like he is a grade A team guy or a great locker room presence, he's more like locker room cancer!!!...I believe somebody said something about his lack of intensity as well...dont get me started on that one, he is sooooo lazy, never back checks, never forechecks, never five checks, never side to side checks....pretty much the last phrase i would ever use to describe dan cleary is "one of the hardest workers on this team" yup i would definitely never describe Cleary in that way. He's also been struggling with injuries this year LOL what a nancy-boy cleary is. HATE HIM.

did i also mention i hate Floatzen, Ericsson, Hudler, Bertuzzi, Holmstrom, Kindl, Emmerton, Conklin, Abby, ANDDDDD Miller. How are these guys still on this team??? and how do we keep doing so well with all these joke hockey players on our team????

I used to HATE val fillpula too because, u kno, hes just another soft euro who doesnt shoot the puck enough....but hes having an up year this year so now i suddenly love him.

pretty much the only acceptable players we have are lids, dats, z, and howie.....everyone else should be traded for draft picks...cleary doesnt have much trade value so we should just cut him and fill his roster spot with Daigle....been hearing he wants to make a comeback to hockey. ahhhh Daigle, now thats a premium hockey player.....everything that cleary is not.

you don't understand the 1difference betweeb Zetter and Cleary?

never said anything about Zetters bucko.......we readin the same post lol?

seriously thou it angers me sometimes how much red wings fans complain about our own players when we make the playoffs and compete for the cup year in and year out....cleary is a fantastic hockey player and will be with this club for years to come so whining about him having a "down year" will do no one any good. i swear its like none of you watch him play....so what if his numbers are off this year...he brings GAME to the ice and the lockerroom everynight. hes not a numbers player anyway.