if Callahan is that type of player and turns out to be even better, then he will have a hard time clearing waivers. He will be snatched up, probably by Nill or Yzerman, and we will lose him for the sake of Cleary. This is why I hate Holland and why I commented in the 4 year extension thread my dislike for the extension.
Why don't you wait till that actually happens b4 u jump to conclusions and down Hollands throat. If we lose Callahan to waivers I will be mighty upset as well, but for all we know at this point he makes the team and Cleary doesn't.
Losing Matthias has had zero impact. He's not good.
He made the NHL and we didn't re-sign Bertuzzi. I wasn't commenting on Matthias as player, but on the trade being an insignificant one for us.
Pre cap we were. Now were not and the team is on a steady decline. We also use to sign notable free agents.
It was typically nyquist Tatar or mantha as the starting price from what I heard and yes if that's what it took only one of those three plus different prospects it should've been done(more so Tatar or nyquist over mantha IMO). But it would depend on the player were recieving and contract status etx etx
Yup. And precap worlds are not the same as post cap world bud. Spending is a whole lot more conservative now. You can't compare the teams actions now to their actions then. Those teams operated under different rules.
And we haven't been on the decline since our trading ended either. Our trading culture ended with Lang and the lockout in 04, and that was coming out of 1st and 2nd round exits in 03 and 04. That continued till 06 and ended in 09. We improved just fine and won a cup without significant trading or selling the prospect pool, in fact it was prospects we had developed who helped contribute to that cup.
Elite was the wrong word but top line or second line is what I meant. And that's be guys like Ryan spezza Kessler and the list for son. These kinds of guys are traded every year and we used to be trading for them, now were not.
When and who are you thinking about???
2008 = Stuart
2007 = Bertuzzi
Other than those two we have zero other significant trades post lockout. And Bertuzzi left after only 18 games with us, so that trade actually hurt us considering we lost Matthias in it and he didn't re-sign. A sort of Legwand Jarnkrok scenario.
So essentially we have added one significant piece via trade in the 8 seasons of the cap world. So no, we didn't used to be trading for those guys and suddenly now are not.
Ehrhoff, Niskanen are a big deal because they would have fixed an ever increasing hole since Lidas left.
Holland and some fans need to realize the time where players would come here for less are over. The Wings nowadays are just one of the teams asking for their service and if the money isn't comparable or hence better they won't sign. Overpayment and taking risks are part of a GMs job, UFA is also known as overpayment day but guess what ? I would have given Suter, Parise even 15 years if it means we are getting to see another cup for Mr. I, Pasha and Z after they've done so much for this former TOP destination in the NHL.
Whats the point of having capsapce if the top guys aren't hitting UFA anymore or you aren't going to use it t o your advantage ? Add to that it's not like the capspace has been used wisely this off-season either, overpayment for 2 players and third on the cusp of getting re-signed which doesn't leave a lot for a local hero (Danny D) is that smart cap management ? I don't think so.
Also Holland didn't take a risks and still lost a trades by a landslide (Poilé absolutely schooled him) so losing a big trade is much better than getting schooled by another gm, as did Yzerman two years ago..
As for McDavid the competition is fierce and tough you need to outtank: Buffalo, Florida, Winnipeg, Edmonton, New York, Calgary and maybe even Phoenix but keep in mind the second pick is also a great one Eichel will be a star in this league too.
There is about 0% chance we pick in the top 5, and a very small chance that we even pick in the top 10... but keep dreaming
I'd recommend everyone watching the TSN story about the Pens and Lemieux some of the stuff basically admitted that they were trying to lose. Sure players would never want to lose but the front office especially GM and coach can put players into impossible situations. Like TSN mentioned playing the 3 pairing on the PK, or let the fourth line play the PK stuff like that.
Funny, how emotionally invested some posters seem to be in a Ken Holland. Yes he has done great things but after losing Yzerman, Nill he really seems to struggle and there is debate about that because the results are there since 2009. It is impossible to rebuild a team via draft or solely via UFA, the mixture needs to be there. With Pasha continuing to slow down I really hope the front office isn't banking on finding another Pasha outside of the top 3 in 2015. I don't care how many excuses people want to make the point is, he now has 4 years to change the UFA perception of this team and to lay down a plan. The current strategy of barely staying over the water won't entice players to sign here, as the core continues to age and the question marks continue to rise. Wheter some fans like to admit it or not but that's exactly how top guys are viewing this team right now.
Sometimes a step back can mean 2 steps forward in the long run, so I would have been much more happy with seeing the young guys getting a chance, create cap space and go for a top pick in one of the best drafts since 2006. Also I'm sick of Holland's if you make the playoffs everything can happen, yeah everything can happen if you are stacked as the LA Kings in most cases you are going to face the Big Bad Bear or the high powered offense of Pittsburgh = first round exit again and a worse draft pick. This is a team which needs a make over in terms of playstyle and soon on key position, you simple can't do that by drafting alone, we won't have the luck of getting a Z, Pasha or - dream on - Lidström again because every team has improved their worldwide scouting and finding gems has become harder and harder.
Shero brought the Pens a cup, a cup final experience, an ECF << more success than Holland and Lemieux decided to fire him because the expectations are sky high in Pittsburgh. The Wings lost out on top UFAs, the team became stale, complacent, UFAs shying away and hasn't even flirted with a third round since 2009 and yet Holland gets a 4 year extension. This just doesn't feel right for me.
I have nothing against Holland, he has done a lot of great things but I personally believe he has lost his inner fire to guide this team through some rough rough years and maybe the game has evolved too much for his ideas. Hopefully we can hire Shero as an assistant and if things go south have him taking over.
I think that had to do more with him being injured though then just being bad. I could be wrong but IF he is healthy I think he is number 2 no matter what.
I also think Abby would be fine in the top 6. He haut needs to go to homer school. Learn how to deflect and handle the luck better in front of net.
And me wanting helm on the fourth isn't so much with his ability cause I agree he is a great defensive center and has lot so speed. It's more so of him being injury prone. If he can play 8 mins a night or whatever the fourth line gets maybe he can stay healthier by playing less.
Zetterberg will slot in as #2 if Weiss can't perform.
Homer school let out 2 years ago. Abdelkader is who he is. A good 3rd line checker.
Would you play Zetterberg on the 3rd line bc he has had injury problems? Weiss has had injury problems, yet you slot him into the #2 no matter what. Why is Helm for some reason a special case where he can only play 8 minutes a night?
1. Putting Sheahan at wing when he is more durable and better than helm(IMO) would be a mistake. Helm should be the fourth line center...where he belongs.
2. In the second scenario I understand why you have Tatar and nyquist where they're at. But that's putting a lot of faith into guys who have only done it for a part of one year at the nhl level but we don't have anyone else to play the top 6.
3. Also no jurco makes me wanna cry but I know these are more realistic rosters except you forgot cleary in the first and there's no way Weiss is fourth line. He is either numer 2 center or hurt IMO. He will be given every opputunity(earned or not) because that's how the wings roll. Vets given too many opportunities young guys not enough.
1. Helm is our fastest forward and probably the best defensively outside of Datsyuk and Zberg. To not play him at Center would be wasting his talents. From what I understand Sheahan is a natural LW. Helm is also regarded as one of the better 3rd line C's in the entire league. Playing him on the 4th, is again wasting his talents. I wouldn't play Datsyuk on the 2nd just because he was injured last year.
2. I'll do anything to keep Abdelkader out of the top 6. But yes, we have no one more else suited for a top 6 role than Nyquist or Tatar.
3. Cleary would be scratched in my first. Your bit about Weiss being #2 no matter what simply isn't the case though, and is not at all how the Wings roll. Babs demoted him to 4th line C very quickly last year when he wasn't performing. The same will happen again if he doesn't show up.
Being NHL-ready and peaking are not at all the same.
I agree. Let me revise my opinion.
I don't think that just bc a player is ready and can or could play means he should. Playing them later, closer to their peak, is better for their all-around long-term development. Hence why I'm equating readiness with peak age.
"Tanking" implies losing on purpose. Whether it's players underperforming, coaches using the wrong players or strategies, or management making moves to make the team worse, it's done with the intent of finishing lower in the standings and getting a higher draft pick. Draft lotteries were invented to reduce the chances of this strategy working. It was done more often in other sports, where high draft picks almost always become impact players right away. The Indianapolis Colts' "Suck for Luck" season is one of the most recent examples.
The Red Wings did not tank to get Steve Yzerman, and there are two obvious reasons why: 1, the Wings had been terrible for almost two decades, making the playoffs twice in 17 years and only winning one series. They didn't lose on purpose in "82-'83, they just couldn't win. 2, the Wings were heavily targeting local product Pat LaFontaine with the #4 pick, but he went #3 to the Islanders. Yzerman was the consolation prize.
Tanking has been around for much longer than salary caps. I think it's tougher to do today, between the cap and roster/player movement limitations.
That article seems to conclude most forwards peak around 24, which is precisely the one of the ages I cited. How is that considerably off at all? The article states that 21-22 forwards show good production in the NHL, but don't get played because their defense is under-developed, aka they aren't ready.
Who are you to say the hawks or pens tanked? No one knows if anyone actually tanks therefore tanking=losing in sports. Not the proper definition buts that's how it's used.
Also the 24 26 28 age you through out is a bit off. I don't remember the exact ages but someone posted the years players had their highest goal totals and I though the best years were 22-24 I think? I could be remember 100% wrong but I believe that's what it was.
I don't know how long you've been in the hockey community, but it's pretty universally understood that the Pens purposefully tanked for the team they have now. The Crosby selection made them the poster boy for the tanking strategy, like what will be done for McDavid this season. The financial hardships they had forced that hand in many ways, but that's what happens when you resign to "being bad". If you are insistent on arguing this point I suggest researching those teams and the late 70s early 80s wings before commenting further.
Some cite a players prime age as early as 24, some as late as 29. I have no idea where you are getting 22-24 from. Those players are rare, but usually dominant. The Wings want their kids to enter the league in a dominant year. That's what over-ripening is all about.
Ok so your logic which I guess I can agree. We can't really judge the hawks or pens until their core is retired an we will see how they are. If they can match it by winning one cup once Crosby and malkin are gone or not. I think that's fair?
Or four cups in a twenty year span.
I guess I don't follow your thinking with the core. You'd think with our current core being older wouldn't you want to win now or them? What about our younger players? If say nyquist is apart of our next core why was it better to sign/resign old veterans and have him stuck in the minors? When in the end we weren't going to win a cup and nyquist would bring the same points or more then say Alfie or cleary at this point in their careers.
I'm well rounded in all sports. Like when I first started watching the tigers and fully understandin things they were god awful. I saw Michigans streaks end. Stupid little streaks MEAN NOTHING winning championships do. Building/rebuilding to win championships doesn't bother me at all. But there's clear choices to make one way or another not a little of both.
Nothing worse than just sitting on the fence and getting no where.
Also explain how that's arrogance? Stating a fact that the wings tanked and got good players is arrogant? Damn learn something new everyday lol.
They didn't tank. They tried but went through a drought anyway. The whole notion of tanking is mostly a cap era phenomenon anyway. Therefore it's arrogant of you to just assume the Wings tanked the team in order to get a guy like Yzerman when you weren't even there. Because that's not what happened, and Stevie, even though he's heralded as such, was not the savior of this organization. He very well could have been the first coming of John Tavares had Wings not played their cards almost perfectly.
In regards to your above statements. Hindsight is 20/20. Just because we didn't win a cup those years doesn't mean the wings couldn't have. And the organization as well as most of us believed, and still do believe, they had a fair shot. Playing older vets kept younger players, like Nyquist, in the minors to build their confidence and develop their game better than they would being rushed into the NHL. Since vets, like you said, got essentially the same points that a rookie would have, there was more good done than harm.
I'm glad you're well-rounded in most sports. It means you obviously know that most hockey players aren't normally ready until 24, 26, or sometimes even 27, unlike most American sports where the ready-age is between 18 and 22. This organization is going to continue sheltering prospects as best they can until they hit those years despite anyone's impatient clamoring. Aside from the rare few who can truly squeak in at an earlier age.
Also, Wings players have routinely expressed their pleasure with Ken always putting together a veteran team.