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Member Since 22 Nov 2010
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#2534443 Lines Thread

Posted by number9 on 17 August 2014 - 10:00 PM

1. Putting Sheahan at wing when he is more durable and better than helm(IMO) would be a mistake. Helm should be the fourth line center...where he belongs.

2. In the second scenario I understand why you have Tatar and nyquist where they're at. But that's putting a lot of faith into guys who have only done it for a part of one year at the nhl level but we don't have anyone else to play the top 6.

3. Also no jurco makes me wanna cry but I know these are more realistic rosters except you forgot cleary in the first and there's no way Weiss is fourth line. He is either numer 2 center or hurt IMO. He will be given every opputunity(earned or not) because that's how the wings roll. Vets given too many opportunities young guys not enough.


1. Helm is our fastest forward and probably the best defensively outside of Datsyuk and Zberg. To not play him at Center would be wasting his talents. From what I understand Sheahan is a natural LW. Helm is also regarded as one of the better 3rd line C's in the entire league. Playing him on the 4th, is again wasting his talents. I wouldn't play Datsyuk on the 2nd just because he was injured last year.


2. I'll do anything to keep Abdelkader out of the top 6. But yes, we have no one more else suited for a top 6 role than Nyquist or Tatar.


3. Cleary would be scratched in my first. Your bit about Weiss being #2 no matter what simply isn't the case though, and is not at all how the Wings roll. Babs demoted him to 4th line C very quickly last year when he wasn't performing. The same will happen again if he doesn't show up.

#2534431 Alfie wants to play

Posted by number9 on 17 August 2014 - 05:42 PM

..... Or, maybe play him exactly where he should start the season... In the minors, getting top line minutes, playing in all situations, gaining confidence...


You mean I have to wait? PASS

#2534424 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by number9 on 17 August 2014 - 01:32 PM

Being NHL-ready and peaking are not at all the same.

I agree. Let me revise my opinion.

I don't think that just bc a player is ready and can or could play means he should. Playing them later, closer to their peak, is better for their all-around long-term development. Hence why I'm equating readiness with peak age.

#2534420 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by number9 on 17 August 2014 - 12:37 PM

"Tanking" implies losing on purpose.  Whether it's players underperforming, coaches using the wrong players or strategies, or management making moves to make the team worse, it's done with the intent of finishing lower in the standings and getting a higher draft pick.  Draft lotteries were invented to reduce the chances of this strategy working.  It was done more often in other sports, where high draft picks almost always become impact players right away.  The Indianapolis Colts' "Suck for Luck" season is one of the most recent examples.

The Red Wings did not tank to get Steve Yzerman, and there are two obvious reasons why: 1, the Wings had been terrible for almost two decades, making the playoffs twice in 17 years and only winning one series.  They didn't lose on purpose in "82-'83, they just couldn't win.  2, the Wings were heavily targeting local product Pat LaFontaine with the #4 pick, but he went #3 to the Islanders.  Yzerman was the consolation prize.


Tanking has been around for much longer than salary caps.  I think it's tougher to do today, between the cap and roster/player movement limitations.


Also, I think your "ready age" numbers are considerably off.  http://www.sbnation....es-age-analysis


That article seems to conclude most forwards peak around 24, which is precisely the one of the ages I cited. How is that considerably off at all? The article states that 21-22 forwards show good production in the NHL, but don't get played because their defense is under-developed, aka they aren't ready.

#2534412 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by number9 on 17 August 2014 - 02:20 AM

Who are you to say the hawks or pens tanked? No one knows if anyone actually tanks therefore tanking=losing in sports. Not the proper definition buts that's how it's used.

Also the 24 26 28 age you through out is a bit off. I don't remember the exact ages but someone posted the years players had their highest goal totals and I though the best years were 22-24 I think? I could be remember 100% wrong but I believe that's what it was.


I don't know how long you've been in the hockey community, but it's pretty universally understood that the Pens purposefully tanked for the team they have now. The Crosby selection made them the poster boy for the tanking strategy, like what will be done for McDavid this season. The financial hardships they had forced that hand in many ways, but that's what happens when you resign to "being bad". If you are insistent on arguing this point I suggest researching those teams and the late 70s early 80s wings before commenting further.







Some cite a players prime age as early as 24,  some as late as 29. I have no idea where you are getting 22-24 from. Those players are rare, but usually dominant. The Wings want their kids to enter the league in a dominant year. That's what over-ripening is all about.

#2534410 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by number9 on 17 August 2014 - 12:52 AM

Ok so your logic which I guess I can agree. We can't really judge the hawks or pens until their core is retired an we will see how they are. If they can match it by winning one cup once Crosby and malkin are gone or not. I think that's fair?

Or four cups in a twenty year span.

I guess I don't follow your thinking with the core. You'd think with our current core being older wouldn't you want to win now or them? What about our younger players? If say nyquist is apart of our next core why was it better to sign/resign old veterans and have him stuck in the minors? When in the end we weren't going to win a cup and nyquist would bring the same points or more then say Alfie or cleary at this point in their careers.
I'm well rounded in all sports. Like when I first started watching the tigers and fully understandin things they were god awful. I saw Michigans streaks end. Stupid little streaks MEAN NOTHING winning championships do. Building/rebuilding to win championships doesn't bother me at all. But there's clear choices to make one way or another not a little of both.

Nothing worse than just sitting on the fence and getting no where.

Also explain how that's arrogance? Stating a fact that the wings tanked and got good players is arrogant? Damn learn something new everyday lol.



They didn't tank. They tried but went through a drought anyway. The whole notion of tanking is mostly a cap era phenomenon anyway. Therefore it's arrogant of you to just assume the Wings tanked the team in order to get a guy like Yzerman when you weren't even there. Because that's not what happened, and Stevie, even though he's heralded as such, was not the savior of this organization. He very well could have been the first coming of John Tavares had Wings not played their cards almost perfectly.


In regards to your above statements. Hindsight is 20/20. Just because we didn't win a cup those years doesn't mean the wings couldn't have. And the organization as well as most of us believed, and still do believe, they had a fair shot. Playing older vets kept younger players, like Nyquist, in the minors to build their confidence and develop their game better than they would being rushed into the NHL. Since vets, like you said, got essentially the same points that a rookie would have, there was more good done than harm.


I'm glad you're well-rounded in most sports. It means you obviously know that most hockey players aren't normally ready until 24, 26, or sometimes even 27, unlike most American sports where the ready-age is between 18 and 22. This organization is going to continue sheltering prospects as best they can until they hit those years despite anyone's impatient clamoring. Aside from the rare few who can truly squeak in at an earlier age.


Also, Wings players have routinely expressed their pleasure with Ken always putting together a veteran team. 

#2534405 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by number9 on 16 August 2014 - 10:15 PM

What might that be in your opinion?

Cause to me if you have a young core you let them play maybe trade less and see who and how well they develop. Not sign old over the hill players and force the young core to start in the ahl when they belong in the nhl (Hollands method).

I wasn't alive at the point in time so I don't know what the reasons are for the dead wing era.

I do know for a fact it was high draft picks that got us yzerman and others that started the upswing and the run the wings are on.

I think it's pure arrogance when peoe down the hawks pens and kings for having their high draft picks turn into stars cause the wings went through the same thing. Theirs just happened many years later.



When you have a Crosby/Malkin/Letang or Toews/Kane/Keith, you pretty much know you have them for the next 10 - 15 seasons to build around, so you're not thinking about building a new core right now, you don't know what you'll have in the next 10 to 15 seasons.


With Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Kronwall we have them for the next 3+ years. We are very much thinking about building a new core. And for the Wings a core comes from within, not from without, for a variety of reasons. If our core was younger I'd definitely expect more risky trades to be happening, because we could afford to make those possible mistakes with a young core. 

#2534401 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by number9 on 16 August 2014 - 09:03 PM

The Ehrhoff signing is almost a Hossa one and it clearly shows how the reception has changed. Back in the days top ufas wanted to come here and now the team is lucky to even be on their final lists. Nielsen has the connection yes, but the caps also presented him with an offer that was 4 million better than ours. Ehrhoff at 4 million is far from costly it's an absolute steal, Niskanen at only 5.75 or is also far from costly that guy is only getting better from now on because he is entering his prime. If a team doesn't get the top guys they need to draft top guys and develop them, the Wings for sure know how to develop players but only being good enough to just make the playoffs or missing them could easily lead to a Calgary our Buffalo situation in a few years. So the pressure for the prospects is already high and if one of the defenders turns out to be just average uuuuu...It's all I can say. Holland simple can't afford to wait and hope for the big signing anymore, as former mentioned this team isn't a premier destination anymore..So he needs to pull out some tricks o ur else this won't be far from the worst we might see. Is it fair who knows? But he is getting paid the big bucks and now has 4 years to prove he can still be the much needed mastermind behind the Wings. The whole loyalty thing is also funny, where was that when it came down to Draper, Dmac or Downey ? But given his performance since 2009 and one mistake after another it should easily be understandable why some fans are worried.


No and no.

#2534398 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by number9 on 16 August 2014 - 07:10 PM

I will say Weiss can be bust. I also agree z can play center and I would prefer him there BUT we have a lack of top 6 wingers right now. Moving z to center would hurt that. As of right now there isn't anyone good enough to play with z and dat moving z to center means we would need two top line wingers maybe nyquist can be one maybe not we don't know yet.

I think we should wait to see if we win a cup with a core of smith dekeyser nyquist and Tatar before people can make tht statement. Were still in the process in my opinion. I said it before we will see if the wings the cup or have a top ten pick first and see if their method has truly worked or not.

The point in saying is the wings had some high picks to get their core (yzerman) then they continued to draft and trade/sign free agents to maintain competitive.

The kings are at the point now where to continue their success they'll need to continue drafting well with worse picks. Continue making trades/signing free agents which they are. The kings have a recipe that is what the wings USED to do. That's why I believe the kings can very well continue their success for the next ten years just like us.

Now the wings aren't signing free agents or making key trades like they used to. And to me that's the difference in one just making the playoffs and is competing for a cup.

There's a veryyyy different strategy when you have a young core, opposed to an old one.

#2534320 Kevin Hayes

Posted by number9 on 15 August 2014 - 01:49 PM

HA, suck it hawks

#2534316 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by number9 on 15 August 2014 - 01:09 PM


Is he?  And are we competitive?


Competitive for Cup?  No way.  Competitive for making the playoffs every year?  You bet ya.  


How do you define trying and how do you define competitive?  


I really do believe every team who makes the playoffs is competitive for the cup. Are our chances as good as say Chicago, Boston, or LA? No. But there's 26 other teams in a similar position as us, or in a worse one. It's going to be a few years before we are a true powerhouse again, but the fact that we are still making it to the show in the mean time is pretty darn good, and hard for any GM to do.

#2534284 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by number9 on 14 August 2014 - 07:42 PM


Yes because the team he inherited won all those games....It obviously never changed....we never acquired or drafted anyone good....oh right let me guess....someone else gets all the credit for that... :ok:


Holland has been with us since 94 I believe, but still doesn't get any credit. Nill doesn't even work for us anymore and he sometimes still gets credit. Baffles me.

Actually the most shocking thing to me is how shocking this is to some people (Holland being reupped)

#2534267 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by number9 on 14 August 2014 - 03:36 PM

Do people really think Burke will go into the season with the current flames roster they need defense. ? But if this is the final roster Hiller will need to play unreal that's for sure although I love the toughness of this team.


We know. We get it. You love fighters.


By people I'm assuming you mean me. Yes I do. He doesn't have any FA's or trade pieces available that are going to make any real impact on the team. They're going to tank. And since they're not going to be any good they've signed a lot of tough guys to put butts in seats.

#2534265 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by number9 on 14 August 2014 - 03:24 PM





Since taking over as Red Wings GM in July 1997, Holland, 58, has put together a team that has won more regular-season games (746) and postseason games (115) than any other NHL team.
"I'm proud of our 23 years of making the playoffs, and I'm excited about challenges going forward," he said. "We've been a team, the last two years, that's been a bubble team. I believe, if you get in and you get hot, it's wide open.
"Our goal going into 2014-15 is, hopefully, we can compete with the top teams in the East, with Boston and Tampa Bay, and Montreal, which went to the final four. We've got a tough division. We're trying to compete for a playoff spot, be a contender.
"At the same time, we're also trying to develop young players to build a core much like we did in late '80s, early '90s that carried us for a decade, and then again in the late '90s. I'm optimistic and excited about our younger players, that they will continue to develop into Detroit Red Wings players."
In a statement released by the team, owners Mike and Marian Ilitch cited Holland's success, saying that "Ken is regarded as one of the premier executives in the National Hockey League and has been instrumental in the success of the Red Wings over the last two decades. Marian and I are extremely pleased that he will continue to lead our hockey club over the next four years.
"We feel strongly that stability is key to the success of any organization, and having this new agreement in place with Ken is important to the organization and its future."



#2534245 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by number9 on 14 August 2014 - 11:51 AM

Chiarelli guy knows how to build a team and the Bruins fans aren't happy with him


That does not mean he's going to be fired at all lol. Red Wings fans HATE Holland right now and the guy just got an extension. Why? Because 99% of fans are blithering idiots who can't see past the next immediate season, so I'm sure the organization really couldn't care less what we think.


EDIT: There's no option available better than Holland