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TheXym

Member Since 05 Dec 2010
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#2534938 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by kliq on 26 August 2014 - 11:40 AM


It's an impossible question to answer, of course. The Wings four biggest 'holes' over the past couple of years have been lack of a power forward, a second-line center, replacing Lidstrom, and increased 'grit' from the bottom lines. Have any of them been adequately addressed through draft, trade or free agency? I'm not suggesting that a 'perfect' solution is always available, of course, but going into the current season, we still don't have an experienced 'power forward', Weiss is a year into a contract with 26 GP and 4 pts as a 'second-line center', replacing Lidstrom is, of course, improbable if not impossible, but we haven't even brought in a defensemen from outside the organization, and Abby led the team in hits (59th in the league). Acting like we don't have areas to improve in doesn't make them go away... In the past few years, something could have been done.

Saying "Sign UFA's" is easy, but the reality of the situation is that in 2014 the players available in UFA are typically average/above average players who are paid like they are borderline elite, I don't believe these types of players are necessarily the answer in the post cap era, in this era I believe the answer is grooming your own home grown talent and supplementing it with UFA's when the right player for the right price is available, otherwise these types of moves can be absolutely crippling to a team. We are coming off a year where Matt Niskanen & Paul Stastny headlined a class, nothing against them as players but we aren't talking Suter/Parise here. The reason why you cant answer the question is because that magic player was not there. The closest person is probably Suter, but signing anyone to a 14 deal right before a CBA was about to be negotiated would have been extremely risky and I am glad we didn't land him.

 

We took a gamble on Weiss, and while he does have years to come around, I think this shows you how just signing a UFA doesn't fix everything.

 

I find it ironic that you use LA and Chicago in your points of comparison, but you are frustrated that we are not winning now. Chicago and LA did not become elite team overnight, they were very bad, for a very long time. LA didn't make the playoffs for 7 years, until there most recent winning way started (i'm talking 7 years to get back in to playoffs, not going deep or winning cups), Chicago (with the one exception of '02) didn't make the playoffs for 11 years.

 

We are in a re-build, people need to accept it. The difference between us and others of the past is that we just aren't horsesh*t doing it. We could go all in and trade Kronwall, Zetterberg, Datsyuk etc. but what they are doing is hoping that our kids can become great, while the vets are still elite or close to it, plus using these vets to give guidance to the kids that are coming up.  Its almost as if sustaining our winning ways to a degree is hurting us, because its resulting in people failing to see the re-build. I'm sorry, but I dont want to be Edmonton, or what Chicago and LA were and be very bad for a very long time. Having a quick turn-around where we dont need to just unload everyone, and are still making the playoffs in an era of parity where anything can happen, is a nice way of doing it!

 

Lastly, as far as comparing Holland to Yzerman and Nill, this is fair buts lets wait a couple of years. Other then a final 4 a few years ago, Yzerman hasn't done anything yet. Since that final 4 TB didnt make the playoffs, and then were swept first round. I admit they appear to be going in the right direction, but its results that matter.

Nill....same thing. I love the moves he is making, but at the end of the day all Dallas has accomplished is an 8th seed where they were bounced first round.

Please don't take this as me putting either of these guys down, the moves appear to be good ones, but lets wait and see.




#2534934 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by vladdy16 on 26 August 2014 - 09:37 AM

It's great to make the playoffs, but let's win some Cups... Yes, 23 years in a row is AMAZING, but the Blackhawks have 2 Cups in their current run, the Kings have 2 Cups in their current run. Yes, we have 4 during ours and 6 appearances. Remember, in our first six years of the streak, we had 0 Cups and only 1 appearance... Creating an elite, winning culture is great and maintaining it will be increasingly difficult in the current NHL. I question whether of not Holland is the guy to do it. Look at how Yzerman has adapted in Tampa Bay or at how Nill has adapted in Dallas, why hasn't Detroit made any changes?

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is arguing against constructive criticism, but the absolute vitriol that spews on this board sometimes usually is frustrating most all level-headed fans and we're getting a little trigger happy.

 

Another thing I'm getting a little tired of is comparing Holland to Yzerman and/or Nill.  Apples and oranges.  The Lightening and Stars had almost nowhere to go but up to begin with.  They also aren't facing the same adversity as Holland - little cap space and an unwillingness to trade with the Wings.  These are pretty sizable barriers to contend with.  Also, neither has the pressure from the fans that the Wings organization has.  I'm not a Holland fanboy by any means, but let's be reasonable.

And since neither Nill or Yzerman is available to Detroit, what's a better option than Holland at this point?




#2534906 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by krsmith17 on 25 August 2014 - 08:11 AM

I really wish people would stop with this, "well we haven't done ANYTHING in the past 5 years", blah, blah, blah... How many times does it have to be said and how the hell is it not obvious to some of you that the Detroit Red Wings are in the midst of their second rebuild in the past two decades, without once missing the playoffs?... That is not that impressive at all... I mean, most teams in the league have done that haven't they?... NOPE, not even close... The Wings streak is at 23 consecutive seasons without missing the playoffs, after that there is the Sharks at 10, Penguins at 8, Bruins 7, Blackhawks 6, Kings 5, Rangers 4, Blues 3, and no other team has made the playoffs more than the past 2 seasons straight. That is absolutely insane when you actually think about it... To continue to make the playoffs for this long, through two rebuilds is nothing short of astonishing, and I'm willing to bet that the Wings make it at least another 7 years to beat the Boston Bruins 29 year playoff streak from '67-'96.

 

People that do not see the brightness at the end of this tunnel, that has been the past 5 years, are pessimists to their truest form. How can you not be thrilled as a Red Wings fan, not only because of the "stupid, not-at-all-impressive streak", but because of all of the talent that we have coming up over the next few seasons.

 

To say that there is no way that Jurco can turn out to be as good as Datsyuk is very bleak in my opinion. Jurco has accomplished more than Datsyuk had accomplished at the tender age of 21. Jurco has already got his first taste of NHL action and played quite well for a rookie, while Datsyuk wasn't even drafted until he was 20 and didn't play his first season in the NHL until he was 23. They both have great hands, obviously Pav gets the edge there though since he has better hands than anyone that has ever played the game. Jurco definitely has the size advantage, as he is 3 inches taller and already closing in on 200 lbs., whereas Pav is around the same now but came into the league as a rookie somewhere between 175-180 lbs.

 

I also think that Nyquist has the potential to become somewhat of a Zetterberg lite. Nyquist is slightly behind Zetterberg in production at the same age but he does have a slightly better point percentage. In Zetterberg's first two seasons he put up 87 points in 140 games, 0.621 points per game, while in Nyquist' first three partial seasons, he put up 61 points in 97 games, 0.628 points per game. Gus has the same drive and determination that makes Hank such a world class player, and he also seems to have the same type of leadership qualities. They're both approximately the same height and weight when they were the same age, while Hank has put on some muscle over the years, Gus still has plenty of room to grow as well.

 

The Wings definitely have a few potential future stars up front in Nyquist, Jurco and Mantha, but to go along with that I think we have much more depth coming than we have ever had before. Sheahan, Tatar, Pulkkinen and Athanasiou are all potential top 6 players, and Nastasiuk, Bertuzzi and Callahan could be great 3rd and 4th line players. I'm not quite sure where Janmark, Nosek, and Frk will fit in but they're quality players as well. Then you have guys like Larkin and Turgeon that we just drafted that I think could be along their way in about five years as well.

 

On the back end we also have a few potential future stars in Smith, DeKeyser and Sproul as well as guys like Ouellet, Backman, Marchenko and Jensen. And of course between the pipes, we have Mrazek coming along quite nicely, and he could be a future top 5 goalie in this league.

 

I realize that all of this, as of right now, is just "potential" but with as many high end prospects that we have, at least a few of them have to turn into quality players. We have one of the best prospect pools in the entire league because we have one of the best general managers in the league, as well as top scouts and development teams in the league (credit to Holland for putting this management team together). I'll never understand some of the constant negative attitudes in here, but to each their own. What a boring forum this would be without you guys lol.




#2534681 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by Dabura on 21 August 2014 - 09:53 AM

Wanted to add something to this:

 

Do you know what a slightly healthier season and/or fewer boneheaded mistakes from Kyle Quincey and/or better luck in the shootout means? Well, for one thing, one more point in the standings gets us the Penguins in the first round. (We ended the regular season tied with the Jackets in terms of points.) I remember very cleary - we wanted the Pens, because we knew we stacked up well against them (even without Zetterberg and Ericsson), and the Pens fans didn't want the Wings, because they knew the Wings stacked up well against the Pens (even with Crosby and Malkin and Neal and Kunitz and The Mighty Matt Niskanen and Future Hall of Famer Brooks Orpik). The Pens were let off the hook and given the Jackets. Because of a tiebreaker rule. Because Johan Franzen and Joakim Andersson spent time as our top center and our heart-and-soul leader had surgery and...Jared Cowen*. (*Don't say we need an enforcer.)

 

Seven more points? We're even with ZOMG CUP CONTENDERS THE MONTREAL CANADIENS. Eight more points? We're even with ZOMG 2015 EASTERN CONFERENCE CHAMPIONS THE TAMPA BAY LIGHTNING. The Flyers? They finished a whopping one point ahead of us. The Rangers, who went to the Stanley Cup Finals? They finished a whopping two points ahead of the Flyers, three points ahead of us.

 

Zone Entries and the Red Wings [Winging It In Motown]

 

We've noted here before that whenever somebody gets to play with Tatar or Nyquist, they get a notable bump in possession. In this sample of data, the Wings generated .57 shots per Nyquist entry (whether by dump or carry), while they generated just .44 shots for every Joakim Andersson entry. Maybe that doesn't sound like a lot, but let's project that over the course of a full season. Nyquist was on pace for about 400 entries of any kind over the course of the season. In a world where both players had 400 entries, Nyquist's entries would be worth 52 more shots over the course of the season, or 4-5 goals. That's probably worth 1-2 points in the standings, which means the Wings play a much more beatable Pittsburgh team in round 1 instead of the Bruins.

 

So, again, something as seemingly small as Andersson playing a greatly elevated role for a game or two due to injuries - that alone was, perhaps, the difference between the Pens and Bruins in the first round. Point being, again, it's easy to say the glass is half-empty for the Wings and that they're barely a playoff team in the weak East. But I personally believe that's selling the team - and its architect - short.




#2534627 Lines Thread

Posted by GoWings1905 on 20 August 2014 - 01:40 PM

Nyquist with the Euro Twins pretty much goes against Babs typical thinking when constructing a line. I'm not entirely opposed to Nyquist playing there (my first choice is Jurco), but if history is any indication, that spot is going to Abby. 

 

I don't really like Tatar away from Sheahan and/or Helm either. I think Tatar largely thrived offensively last season because he wasn't typically drawing opponents top forwards and d-men. Sheltering Tatar on the third line worked because most other teams couldn't match up with what the Wings could throw out in Tatar, Sheahan and Jurco together. 




#2534595 Trial date set in Steve Moore’s lawsuit against Todd Bertuzzi

Posted by Hockeytown0001 on 19 August 2014 - 10:28 PM

About time.


#2534575 Lines Thread

Posted by darkmanx on 19 August 2014 - 05:41 PM

Why don't you wait till that actually happens b4 u jump to conclusions and down Hollands throat. If we lose Callahan to waivers I will be mighty upset as well, but for all we know at this point he makes the team and Cleary doesn't.

 

jump-to-conclusions-mat.jpg

 

original.jpg




#2534519 Ice Bucket ALS Challenge: Bettman edition

Posted by T.Low on 18 August 2014 - 07:29 PM

My 75 yr old Mom.




#2534419 The Pavel Datsyuk Show

Posted by Son of a Wing on 17 August 2014 - 12:25 PM

Goals

 

 

Assists

 




#2534400 Ice Bucket ALS Challenge: Bettman edition

Posted by Z Winged Dangler on 16 August 2014 - 08:53 PM

UGH. I hate what this re-signing has done to people's (myself included) perception of Cleary. That video just made me want to hug him and beg him to retire.

Also, did anyone else notice he referred to himself as "Danny?" :lol:

I HATE the signing, but after watching tons of Wings videos this summer, I must say if Cleary was as good a player as he is a person, he would win the Hart Trophy this season.  I truly hope he proves us all wrong and has a bounce back season. 

 

Bettman is still the Anti-Christ.  Nothing that man does at this point can undo the wrongs that happened under his rule.




#2534371 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by Dabura on 16 August 2014 - 08:29 AM

frank, you were there this past season. The injuries were a nightmare. They won't be that bad this season. Don't say they will, because there's no way they can be. There's absolutely no way. I say that as a hockey fan, a sports fan, not just a Wings fan.

 

Do you know what a slightly healthier season and/or fewer boneheaded mistakes from Kyle Quincey and/or better luck in the shootout means? Well, for one thing, one more point in the standings gets us the Penguins in the first round. (We ended the regular season tied with the Jackets in terms of points.) I remember very cleary - we wanted the Pens, because we knew we stacked up well against them (even without Zetterberg and Ericsson), and the Pens fans didn't want the Wings, because they knew the Wings stacked up well against the Pens (even with Crosby and Malkin and Neal and Kunitz and The Mighty Matt Niskanen and Future Hall of Famer Brooks Orpik). The Pens were let off the hook and given the Jackets. Because of a tiebreaker rule. Because Johan Franzen and Joakim Andersson spent time as our top center and our heart-and-soul leader had surgery and...Jared Cowen*. (*Don't say we need an enforcer.)

 

Seven more points? We're even with ZOMG CUP CONTENDERS THE MONTREAL CANADIENS. Eight more points? We're even with ZOMG 2015 EASTERN CONFERENCE CHAMPIONS THE TAMPA BAY LIGHTNING. The Flyers? They finished a whopping one point ahead of us. The Rangers, who went to the Stanley Cup Finals? They finished a whopping two points ahead of the Flyers, three points ahead of us.

 

Look, I get it. We're the Red Wings and the Red Wings are Cup-or-bust, no excuses. But this is our first real protracted dose of Adversity in two decades, and we're still right there, knocking on the door. It's really easy to say the glass is half-empty for the Wings, I know this better than most here. I registered here in 2004 and I've been complaining ever since. I could make - and have made, countless times - a really compelling case for why Ken Holland should be fired. But, at the end of the day? If I'm being honest and objective? If I'm looking at what I think is the bigger picture, the bigger plan? I give Ken Holland credit. I think he's doing the right thing, for the most part.

 

If any GM in this league has earned the benefit of the doubt, it's probably Holland. He knows success. Chicago and Los Angeles win two Cups and everyone's talking like they're the greatest teams imaginable. The Wings were contenders for longer than some of the people on these boards have been alive. We came soul-crushingly close to winning back-to-back Cups in '09. We probably should've won it all in '07. We beat the Ducks and had the aforementioned Blackhawks on the ropes in 2013.

 

We have three or four years to win one last Cup for Datsyuk. With Zetterberg, Kronwall, Franzen, Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Mantha, Pulkkinen, Athanasiou, Sproul, et al. in the system, I'm liking our chances. I'm not just saying that. I think about this stuff every day. I obsess over this stuff. I definitely have my problems with Ken Holland's decision-making. I definitely have my concerns. I definitely don't like seeing the Wings as anything short of serious contenders. But in due time we're going to be looking back on all this and laughing. I believe that.




#2534369 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by wings4thecup06 on 16 August 2014 - 04:43 AM

 

Honestly a lot of people thought Kopitar would be leading the way. He was drafted #11 overall and was ranked the #1 European player.

 

That 2009 roster had Kopi, Brown, Doughty, J. Johnson, Wayne Simmonds, and Jonathan Quick.  They were a talented, but crazy young team.  Brown was the oldest of that group at 23.  Doughty was 18.  Johnson was 21. Quick was 22.  I don't know a ton about the Wings prospects but I'm pretty sure they don't compare to that group. 

 

Add to that a handful of solid vets on the team.  O'Donnell, Stoll, Greene, Williams. They added Scuderi the next season. I don't know that anyone would've guessed the two Cups, but they had all the makings of becoming a great team very soon.

 

Sorry. You should pick a team that isn't my second favorite and I swear I'll keep my mouth shut. :P

 

Here's the thing about all those Kings prospects you listed:

 

Brown - drafted 13th overall 2003

Kopitar - drafted 11th overall 2005

Doughty - drafted 2nd overall 2008 

Johnson - drafted 3rd overall 2005 

Simmonds - drafted 61st overall 2007

Quick - drafted 72nd overall 2005

 

That's four key players who were drafted 13th overall or lower in the space of 5 years. The Wings are lucky (as we all know) if we even get a first round pick. I think what I'm trying to point out is that these guys is that due to their draft position they were already well heralded, hyped and great things were expected of them. 

 

Our guys? Was anyone really saying that Datsyuk was going to be the hall of fame caliber player he is back in 1998? Right now the only guy in our prospect pool who might even come close to what those guys from the Kings had is Mantha - yet we still don't even know what we'll get from him as there's a chance he might not even play in the NHL this season. 

 

Personally, I think what we've seen is a philosophy change from KH and the management team -  build up the prospect ranks, re-stock the farm, and slowly integrate those kids into bigger roles in the NHL to compliment and support the big guns so that the team grows while also remaining competitive. Once we have the kind of team that KH believes can compete for the cup, then I think we'll start seeing a few trades to bring in guys that will help maintain that goal. A bit like the Stuart trade before we won in 08. 

 

I'm guessing here, but I reckon people don't like that because we all want to win now, and on the surface it looks like this team has been going backwards - 1 playoff round win in 3 years. Personally I think this team is moving forward - even with Cleary, and I think the Wings took the biggest step last year. They've established that an entire 3rd line of kids are good enough and ready enough to not only take NHL jobs, but also contribute in a big way. And thus, the philosophy is working. The kids we're drafting and developing are turning into legitimate NHLers. The task I think now is just getting healthy and letting everyone play together so the Wings can evaluate what we truly have, how good everyone is, and what pieces need to be added to make the Wings a cup competitor. 

 

But I guess that takes time, and not everyone is happy about that. 




#2534254 Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

Posted by Dabura on 14 August 2014 - 01:16 PM

And Holland should have been working on a transition plan for Lidstrom's retirement for years.  Him participating in the ridiculous Suter sweepstakes was a pretty good indication that he didn't have one.  The reality is you don't replace Nick Lidstrom.  You have to reevaluate and restructure the entire team.  Holland keeps making moves like it's 2008.

 

I dunno, harold. I think over the course of this five year drought we've always been a couple key pieces away from seriously competing for the Cup. At the same time, our prospect cupboards were empty, and the brain trust has done a really good job of re-stocking. Right now we have one of the better prospect pools in the league, and I think we're still just a couple key pieces away from being a serious contender, because we still have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Franzen. I think that's rebuilding on the fly. Over the course of a few years you remain competitive, maybe trying for a UFA home run here and there - but the focus is on keeping the competitive core while building up a solid stable of very promising young players that will hopefully complement that core and one day take over. Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco have broken through, Smith and DeKeyser should take big steps forward this season, and we're also looking at four or five very good D prospects waiting in the wings, Anthony Mantha being no more than a year away, and our goalie of the future spending his final season as a Griffin.

 

I (want to) believe Ken Holland has been doing what he's been doing for good reason and that the past few years of "futility" are going to pay off in a big way.




#2533857 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by Dabura on 07 August 2014 - 03:57 PM

I guess where we respectfully agree to disagree, is that I believe to build a winner in the NHL nowadays takes much more time than it used to, and I believe because back in the early 2000's all the Wings had to do after a rough patch was make a few signings (ie. Hull, Robitaille etc.), or make a big trade (ie. Hasek, Lang etc.).....that people believe management should be able to do that now. It's simply a different world, and to have those same expectation are unrealistic.

 

Agreed.

 

I sort of think of it in terms of marriage and parenthood. The Wings of the 90s and early 2000s were a bachelor who was basically beholden to no one. Then that bachelor got married and became a father. Now he has certain responsibilities. Now every move he makes has to be born of a series of careful considerations. Would he like to spend every weekend with hookers? Maybe. Could he spend every weekend with hookers? Maybe. But, really, he can't. He shouldn't. Because he'd be a bad husband and father. Everything would fall apart.

 

If it were up to Ken Holland, he'd spend as much of Mike Ilitch's money as he could. Were it up to Ken Holland, he'd trade all his draft picks for all-star acquisitions. Were it up to Ken Holland, there'd be no cap, and we'd have a dynamite team every single season, like back in the 90s and early 2000s. But none of that's doable in the cap era. Every consideration is complex. Every draft pick matters. Realistically, every penny that can be pinched, is pinched. One wrong move can wreck your team - and organization (The All-Important Bottom Line) - for years.

 

At the end of the day, the Wings were a juggernaut for two straight decades. The cap and our empty prospect cupboards started to catch up with us, and Kenny decided to switch to a retooling plan, the idea being that we tread water for a few years in exchange for another ten years or more of contention. And even then, he's never been fully resigned to simply treading water, because he's gone for Suter, Parise, Edler, Niskanen, et al. I've given him s*** for that for the past couple of years, saying he's a hypocrite and whatnot. But I think all he really wants is to see the Wings win the Cup as soon as possible, same as us. Key thing is, though, he has to be responsible. He has to take a long view of things, has to know when to exercise restraint. He has to do what's best for the club in the long run and in the big picture. I have to give him a lot of credit. Were it me, I'd probably be more like Paul Holmgren, wheeling and dealing but never really getting his team anywhere, and, actually, probably hurting them more than he's helping them.




#2533852 Predictions for the DRW 2014-15 Season!

Posted by kliq on 07 August 2014 - 12:35 PM

 

Feel free to think what you want, I'm not here to convince you.  I'm just here to say that fans expectations aren't "unrealistic" because the organization purportedly has the same expectations.

 

I'm sick of this whole "Red Wings fans are spoiled with success" argument.  You're supposed to want your team to compete for the championship every year.  You're also supposed to be bent out of shape when you don't think your team IS competitive.  That's what being a fan is all about.  Not sitting around casually observing the team and then clapping at the end of the game.  Ho hum. 

I would love it if the Wings now where what they were back in the glory years. I agree with you in that I want the Wings to compete for a championship every year, I get upset when they get eliminated from the playoffs, I also agree with you that this is what being a fan is all about, I also don’t want to casually observe the team and then clap at the end of the game.  Ho hum.....I wouldn’t be posting on here, buying season tickets, and watching the games if I didn’t feel that way. I think for the most part we are on the same page.

 

I guess where we respectfully agree to disagree, is that I believe to build a winner in the NHL nowadays takes much more time than it used to, and I believe because back in the early 2000's all the Wings had to do after a rough patch was make a few signings (ie. Hull, Robitaille etc.), or make a big trade (ie. Hasek, Lang etc.).....that people believe management should be able to do that now. It's simply a different world, and to have those same expectation are unrealistic.

 

You can’t just go out and sign a bunch of UFA's as that can hurt you long term, and young talent is more important now then it may have ever been with all the long term contract going around now, so you dont want to trade young guys.

 

Long story short, we want the same thing here......GO WINGS!