kipwinger

Doughty had a 50+ point campaign at a young age.

But I agree our defense needs improvement, that's what the 17 million dollars and trade assets are for. option one was to get Suter, we came in second place, option two is explore the trade market, and it will take time for a deal to be made.

I completely agree, I watched the same off season as everybody else did.  And certainly (as I said before) nobody expected to lose Lidstrom and Staurt in the same year.  So I'm not here to condemn Holland or anyone else.  I like Kronwall, I like White, and Ericsson, and Smith, and even Kindl...but I don't think it's reasonable to say that there were absolutely no moves (over the last three years) that would have left our defense in better shape than it's in.

Finally, to give credit where it's due.  I did like the White signing, it clearly worked out, and I did like the Quincey trade, which will.  I don't think Holland did nothing, but in order to play devil's advocate I think it's only honest to side with Esteef in saying that in some cases better options were available.  Erhoff and Wisniewski both have 50 point seasons too, and their cap hits are 4 and 5.5 milliion dollars respectively.

I'm not trying to bait you into anything, I'm just trying to understand your position. How can you say Holland should have done "something", when you can't name that "something"?

I'd get not liking some of Holland's moves like trading to get Quincy, or if you wanted Holland to be more in on the Burns trade. I wouldn't necessarily agree with you, but at least I'd know where you are coming from and we can compare predictions and thoughts on the future of the Red Wings given the move would have wanted him to make. Right now you're argument is you don't like Holland because he didn't do something you can't even come up with?



Out of those names you listed I honestly think the Red Wings are better off without overpaying for them. I really prefer the situation we have now without one of those defenseman, than if we had one. Ian White is better than any of those names, and he's signed for 2.8 million. Deals are out there. If the Red Wings miss the playoffs due to not spending, I'd understand the dismay, but until then I don't understand the disappointment, because I just don't see how those players make the Red Wings better.

I don't like any situation in which we only have five defensemen under contract, the best of which scored 36 points last year and was a -3 defensively in spite of playing regular minutes with defensively responsible players such as Stuart, Zetterberg, and Filppula.

How? What? Which move could he have realistically done?

I don't know of a dman that has been moved that could replace lids, can I get a name?

Obviously nobody can replace Lidstrom, but there have been plenty of guys over the last couple of years who are legit top four defenders, and if you want a top four defenseman (or top six winger) and you aren't currently developing any in your farm, then you're going to have to overpay in free agency (or else watch them go somewhere else).  (2012) Carle, Wideman, Allen (2011) Wisniewski, Pitkanen, Erhoff, Jovanovski, Kaberle (2010) Paul Martin, Dan Hamhuis are all guys who were available and could have been signed.  I know some of them got s***ty contracts and all that, and maybe that would have been the case no matter what, but you never know who'd be willing to take less to avoid places like Florida, Buffalo, or Columbus.  That's the kicker though, it has to be a LITTLE bit less (in term or salary), you can't expect free agents to turn down millions of dollars in difference just because this is Detroit.  Every team has potential anymore.

I honestly believe the reason none of the above mentioned were signed is because nobody expected to lose Lidstrom and Stuart in the same year.

I don't think Kenny is a f*** up, but let's not pretend like there were simply no conceivable options for the last couple of years.

Are we talking about the same two people?  Because if we are then it should probably be pointed out that Kostitsyn's career high in points is lower than Semin's career average.  Kind of a no brainer.

I'm thoroughly convinced that the only reason anyone thinks Semin is lazy is because other people say Semin is lazy.  How often does he need to score in order to be considered consistent and not lazy?  Should he score as often as Zach Parise? Oh wait, he already does.  Should his plus/minus be better than Parise's?  Wait, it already is.  Maybe if he shot more or passed as much?  Wait, he does that too...and at a higher percentage.  About the only areas in which he and Parise don't match up are number of games played, and ice time.  Factor those in and Semin has done as well or better than Zach Parise in every major category with MUCH less time on ice.

His numbers also compare very favorably to Rick Nash and Bobby Ryan as well, and most of us (myself included) would be thrilled to have those guys.

There are a lot of negative things you can say about Semin, but lazy and inconsistent shouldn't be among them.

Unless we're dressing 15 or 16 forwards a night, we have more cap space than the 17 million we're talking about here.  So it's pretty hard to say that we're not signing people because we want to save money for next year.  Even with a signing (or two) we've still got a TON of money.

Also:  Every year we don't make a change and desperately hope that one of Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Jurco, or whomever is the next Datsyuk or Zetterberg is another year older for a core of guys who (even with Lidstrom and Stuart) couldn't get the job done.  It's really hard for me to believe that the same core that couldn't get the job done for the last three years (even with Lidstrom and Stuart) is going to be able to do it now.  Unless Sammy, Tootoo, and Gustavsson were the missing ingredients...ugh.  And even if Nyquist, Brunner, Jarnkrok, or Jurco come around and turn into high level guys, how far off is that, two years?  Three?  At which time Datsyuk will be Bertuzzi's age, Zetterberg and Kronwall will be Samuelsson's age, and Flip will be 30-31.  Who's the core then?

I don't think Doan has enough left in the tank. I would pass.

Doan is younger than Drake was when he came back in 2008 and laid himself on the line for a cup.  Plus, Doan is a much bigger, grittier, and more skilled player than Drake ever was.  Doan had 5 goals and 4 assists during this year's playoffs.  That's a quarter of his regular season production in the playoffs.  Not too shabby for a guy with no gas in the tank.

Wherever he lands, Shane Doan will kill or be killed for a Stanley Cup.

Here's a new way to evaluate Holland's performance here since Bowman left: How has he replaced what we've lost from the 2008 Stanley Cup Championship team he inherited?  It might not be an all-inclusive method of evaluation, but it's certainly an angle that's at least worth looking at.

*Keep in mind that we're talking about the player we had IN 2008...and then what we have now.

Forwards:

J. Hudler----------D. Brunner.  I'll have to see it to believe it, but from what we've been told, Brunner now shouldn't be much of a drop-off from Hudler of 08.
T. Holmstrom----------G. Nyquist.  Very, very different players, but I really, really like Nyquist, so I'll dare to again say "not much of a drop-off."
K. Draper----------J. Abdelkader.  Abby might never be what Draper was, but isn't much worse now than Draper was in 08...aside from faceoffs.  Not much of a drop-off.
D. Drake----------T. Bertuzzi.  Again, very different players.  Drake did some things Bert doesn't.  Bert does some things Drake didn't.  Not much of a drop-off.
D. McCarty----------J. Tootoo.  Tootoo's not the intimidator McCarty was, even in 08.  McCarty wasn't the skater that Tootoo is.  Not much of a drop-off.
K. Maltby----------D. Miller.  See the Draper/Abdelkader comparision.  Not much of a drop-off.
M. Hartigan----------P. Eaves.  Probably the one instance amongst the forwards of actual improvement.  Too bad it's the 14th forward.

Defensemen:

N. Lidstrom----------J. Ericsson.  I won't even dignify this by attempting to compare.
B. Rafalski----------I. White.  Not even close.
B. Stuart----------K. Quincey.  Not really close.
A. Lilja----------B. Smith.  Perhaps an improvement?
B. Lebda----------J. Kindl.  How in the world do you not improve over Lebda in 4 seasons?
C. Chelios----------???

Goalies:

C. Osgood----------J. Howard.  Not quite there yet.  But not that far off either.  
D. Hasek----------J. Gustavsson.  Backup goalies don't matter enough to get into this one.

In general:

1) The forward group remains more or less the same, though older.  I'd say that age has had more of a negative impact than development has had a positive impact.
2) The defensive group has been completely wiped out and not even close to replaced in most cases.
3) The goalies are more or less the same.

So, there you have it.  That's what Ken Holland's done.  Hasn't improved anything since he's been here.  Has let us get A LOT worse on the back end.  That's it.  All there is to it.  Bottom line.  Period.

You say Holland "inherited" the team as if that was a well established fact.  Let's look at what Ken Holland inherited in 2008 shall we?  Ken Holland drafted the lion's share of the talent on the 2008 team.  Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Hudler, Franzen, Filppula, Quincey, Ericsson, Abdelkader, and Kronwall were all Hollands picks.  Samuelsson, Cleary, Stuart, Lilja, and Rafalski were all Ken Holland signings.  Additionally, Osgood, Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Drake, and McCarty were drafted before Bowman came to the team, and in the case of Drake and McCarty, re-signed under Holland.

The only notable people on the 2008 team that came from Scotty's tenure were Chelios, Hasek, Draper, and Maltby.  That's right, the core components that Holland "inherited" were a backup goalie (in the playoffs), a sixth defenseman, and two fourth line grinders.

No need for personal attacks when the facts fly so contrary to every statement you make

Read this as well, makes sense. I mean if Hudler can do it. Just think about Z, Dats, or Filp passing him the puck?!

But I think the interesting thing is that he makes the players he's with better as well.  According to the article most players were better off, offensively and defensively, when playing on a line with him so it's reasonable to expect he'd increase D,Z, Franzen, or Flip's production as well.

So much of what's going on doesn't make sense to me.  Like singing Tootoo, or signing Sammy when either Nyquist or Brunner was supposed to play in the top six this year, or giving Sammy a NTC, or not having much of a backup plan if we didn't land Suter, or not signing Quincey when it became apparent that we couldn't get Suter (Wideman, Garrison, or Carle) and we only have 5 defensemen under contract, or not signing a top six forward (the same problem we've had for the last three years), or staking our remaining offensive hopes on a guy (Doan) who's most likely to remain with his current (and only team), or not signing Semin now that he's really the only guaranteed top six that we could sign without having to give up assets for, or finally staking next season on trades which are more likely to not happen than pan out in our favor.

Really the only thing that makes any sense to me was signing Gustavsson.  Ugh.

Note:  That it doesn't make sense to me is no reason to believe that nothing good can come of it.  I'm just saying I really have no idea what the plan was this offseason based on the moves we've made/haven't made.  I'm in the dark.

Awesome article on why a team should be willing to take a chance on Semin.  My apologies if it's already been posted somewhere, I didn't feel like scrolling back through the entire discussion to verify.

http://www.anguscert...the-10-percent/

Who was the GM before Holland????? Bowman.  Brian Murray also made improvements prior to Bowman taking over for him.

Fact:  Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Kronwall, Franzen, Quincey, Eriksson, Helm, Howard, Hudler, Abdelkader, Smith, and Nyquist were all scouted and drafted by people not named Scotty Bowman.  Datsyuk was the first of those listed to be drafted (1998).  Ken Holland was named sole GM of the team in 1997.  Scotty Bowman didn't have s*** to do with it.

Nobody is trying to undermine what Scotty did for the team, but to suggest that Holland has not drafted anyone worth a damn during his tenure, and that all the success the team has seen under Holland should really be given to Bowman is retarded.

Bowman was the GM from 1993-1997.  Here's a quick look at his most prominant drafts:
Anders Eriksson
Norm Maracle
Mathieu Dandenault
Tomas Holmstrom
Yuri Butsayev

Additionally, Yzerman, Osgood, Fedorov, Konstantinov, Kozlov, Primeau, McCarty, Lidstrom, and Lapointe were all drafted before Scotty joined the organization.

Your honor, I rest my case.

Most of this is completely B.S.  Scotty Bowman, as a coach (and especially as an advisor), didn't have anything to do with who got scouted, rated, and ultimately drafted by the Wings.  Giving Bowman and not Holland credit for finding and  drafting the likes Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kronwall, Franzen, etc. is completely absurd.  Unless Scotty was secretly flying over to Sweden and Russia to catch games, I'd say his role was rather limited.

As a coach he probably did play a fairly large part in what free agents were signed and who made it through camp and all that.  But this nonsense might as well give him credit for sunshine.

Come back, Nick.

Seriously, there's still time for the Captain to bail us out on this one.

Can we get some people on record calling Cleary dead weight, so when he bounces back and has another 20 goal year, you can all eat crow? The guy is a warrior who gives it his all night in and night out and was still one of our best forwards come playoff time DESPITE playing on knees that were basically held together by twine and bubble gum... He had successful surgery and will come back with a bang this year, mark my words, and you can even bookmark this post.

I don't think he's dead weight, but I will go on record as saying that I would prefer him on the third line, where he's a mismatch against almost any team in the league.