kipwinger

Lyle Richardson of The Hockey News reports that Semin is rumored to be looking for a two year/ten million dollar contract.  If this is true I honestly cannot understand why nobody (not just the Wings) has signed this guy yet.  Something's screwy here.

So the offer was Franzen+prospect+pick and Howson rejected....

Are you asking us or telling us?  If this is truly what we offered, then this IS NOT "one hell of an offer".  This might be enough to land Jeff Carter at last year's trade deadline, but not enough to land Rick Nash during this year's off season.

Players strike when they've got nothing to lose, owners strike when they've got everything to gain.  Neither is the case this year.  I'm predicting a new CBA with relatively few holdups, though it will probably carry on for while so that both sides can posture a little bit for next time.

Scott Howson needs a goalie + Scott Howson is stupid as hell = The Dominator has a new job.  It's simple math really.

The key here is UFA.  He can go where he likes.  Holland can offer him a one year deal at 10 million, but if he wants to make less and go to the Pens, then Holland can't do anything about it.

Wait you mean an unrestricted free agent can sign for with any team he likes without even having to justify his decision in any way?  This is bulls***!  Looks like there's a new item for the CBA negotations.  Get er done Bettman.

He doesn't spend money just to spend it, if it's not the right deal he won't do it because if e did he wouldn't be able to make the right one when that opportunity comes along.
There are going to be a lot of big physical skilled players (what we need) in next year's UFA crop an some of them will be available in  trades this year as salary dumps or their current teams won't be able to retain them because of poor fiscal management and until the right one comes along we will be able to give some youngsters a better look for evaluation purposes and for their development all of which will make us a much stronger team in the long run than overspending on someone because we have the cap space.


Even in his last year Rafalski led all d-men in PPG, there is no comparison. I'm sure Holland would have loved to have Ehroff at $4mill but somebody beat him to the punch, I would much rather have Holland then whoever is managing the Sabres, I would rather have Holland then any of the other GMs and I think so would most if not all of the owners

That's exactly the point I was trying to make, someone else beat him to the punch.  Surely, if the Sabres GM could pull the strings on a deal like that then Holland could have.  I don't think he wanted to, and hence we don't have Erhoff.  Also, read again, I never said Erhoff was better or comparable to Rafalski, I said he'd put up ten points less (on average) per year and cost two million dollars less.  Finally, I've NEVER suggested getting rid of Holland, I've simply said that there were things that could have happened over the last three years that would have left our defense in better shape than it's in.  Holland missed out (or opted out) of those situations, which doesn't mean he should be fired, but I don't know why suggesting Holland should have done something different when the opportunity clearly presented itself is such anathema with some people around here.  He's a great GM, but it's not like the guy can't make mistakes once in a while.  And when he does, and some of us choose to discuss it, I don't see why we're considered treasonous by some, or worse accused of wanting him replaced (which neither I nor Esteef ever suggested).

p.s. I'm not talking about you Carman, while we disagree, I do think that you've been perfectly reasonable the entire time.

Rafalski was an elite point producing defenseman, s***ty knee's or not he was putting up 50ish points a season, Erhoff's done it once. We already have enough puck movers which make Erhoff/Wiz unappealing to me, I feel like they wouldn't fulfill their purpose on the Red Wings, we need to get better defensively on the back end, not offensively.

And I watch a lot of hockey, +/- doesn't mean a whole lot to me, I watch a lot of Wisniewski as he's a local guy, you think Kronwall pinches a lot or takes chances? Watch a Columbus/Montreal game, Wisniewski is a very very poor defender in my opinion.

The point I was trying to make with regards to Rafalski was that if he was making 6 million to put up 40-50 points in his old age, then I'd be willing to give Erhoff 4 million to put up 30-40 in his old age.  That's all, I wasn't bashing Rafalski.  I'm also not too wrapped up in plus minus either, but when a guy's only negative years come with the Islanders and Columbus I think there's something to take from it.

All I'm getting at is that if you take Kronwall, Smith, Kindl, Ericsson, and Quincey and add to that any of the people I mentioned above, and our defense is in MUCH better shape.  And acquiring any of those guys wouldn't have been too expensive or unreasonable.

I'm of the opinion that the reason we're the dominant force in the league is because we scout, draft, and develop talent better than just about anyone.  Pair that with the fact that the organization treats players well and therefore, they're willing to stay at almost any cost.  In my opinion, that's were Ken Holland earns all his accolades.  He doesn't really splash in free agency or the trade deadline, but his ability to consistently produce homegrown talent, and keep it around, makes him one of the best in the league.  Not because he does or doesn't spend too much money.

The term is what gets me on those deals, I don't think they've proven to be good enough for the number of years they wanted. I really don't think Buffalo/Columbus fans are running out to buy Erhoff/Wisniewski jerseys.

Erhoff-  The idea behind a 10 year contract is that the player would eventually outperform his cap hit in the beginning to negate any complications when he enters his twilight, but take a look at his stats, do you feel there is an indication that he's worth the 40 million dollar gamble or outperforming a $4 million dollar cap hit? That's just talking about offensively, ask any Vancouver/Buffalo fan and they will tell you how he is on defense, let's just say not close to $4 million dollar's especially on the top pairing. And you said it yourself, we have plenty of puck moving defensemen, I don't think he would have been a very good fit.

Wisniewski- 6 years 5.5 million I can see the appeal, he's got potential injured last season but played well at least offensively, he can hit but he's only 6'0 not exactly menacing and tough. Much like Ian White in the toughness area. But again, defensively he is very prone to turnovers, isn't a great skater and has a problem with pinching. Again I don't think it would have been a very good fit for the Red Wings in regards to what kind of defenseman we need.

Well with Erhoff I doubt very seriously he plays until 40, so basically you've got a guy who will put up 30+ points a year, and runs the hell out of a powerplay, for 4 million dollars until the end of his career.  I do understand being wary of that term though, and you're right, it's a gamble, but if Brian Rafalski can put up quality numbers despite having s***ty knees, at 36-37 years old, so can Erhoff...and Erhoff would be cheaper.

Wiz is as good defensively as Kronwall, hits, fights, is 20 lbs. heavier, and scores as much or more, and god knows he'd help our powerplay  Plus, unlike Erhoff, he won't be all that old when his contract is up...33 I think.  In all honesty I don't really understand why people thought this one was so bad.  His bad defensive years were with Columbus -13, and the Islanders -18.  When he was traded from the Island to Montreal he was a plus four for the remainder of the season.  Excluding the two years playing on two of the worst teams imaginable, the Wiz is a career plus defenseman.  He does take bad penalties now and again, but usually it's because he's overly aggressive, something I wouldn't really mind on our team.

Those are my defenses of those two guys, you're welcome to disagree, as neither of them are elite players and I'm aware of it.  Obviously my list included more than just those two as well, but the point I was always trying to make is that there have been plenty of good defensemen available over the last three years.  We either didn't want them, or didn't think we needed them.  In lieu of our current defensive situation I'd say that those were both poor decisions.

Finally, hindsight is 20/20, I get that.  But isn't it part of a general manager's job to anticipate the future (as best as possible)?  Holland constantly talks about the future.  So it's hard for me to say that he shouldn't have been better prepared, preparation falls pretty much exclusively on his shoulders.  He's still a great GM, but I agree with Esteef, he could have handled this better.

Doughty had a 50+ point campaign at a young age.

But I agree our defense needs improvement, that's what the 17 million dollars and trade assets are for. option one was to get Suter, we came in second place, option two is explore the trade market, and it will take time for a deal to be made.

I completely agree, I watched the same off season as everybody else did.  And certainly (as I said before) nobody expected to lose Lidstrom and Staurt in the same year.  So I'm not here to condemn Holland or anyone else.  I like Kronwall, I like White, and Ericsson, and Smith, and even Kindl...but I don't think it's reasonable to say that there were absolutely no moves (over the last three years) that would have left our defense in better shape than it's in.

Finally, to give credit where it's due.  I did like the White signing, it clearly worked out, and I did like the Quincey trade, which will.  I don't think Holland did nothing, but in order to play devil's advocate I think it's only honest to side with Esteef in saying that in some cases better options were available.  Erhoff and Wisniewski both have 50 point seasons too, and their cap hits are 4 and 5.5 milliion dollars respectively.

I'm not trying to bait you into anything, I'm just trying to understand your position. How can you say Holland should have done "something", when you can't name that "something"?

I'd get not liking some of Holland's moves like trading to get Quincy, or if you wanted Holland to be more in on the Burns trade. I wouldn't necessarily agree with you, but at least I'd know where you are coming from and we can compare predictions and thoughts on the future of the Red Wings given the move would have wanted him to make. Right now you're argument is you don't like Holland because he didn't do something you can't even come up with?



Out of those names you listed I honestly think the Red Wings are better off without overpaying for them. I really prefer the situation we have now without one of those defenseman, than if we had one. Ian White is better than any of those names, and he's signed for 2.8 million. Deals are out there. If the Red Wings miss the playoffs due to not spending, I'd understand the dismay, but until then I don't understand the disappointment, because I just don't see how those players make the Red Wings better.

I don't like any situation in which we only have five defensemen under contract, the best of which scored 36 points last year and was a -3 defensively in spite of playing regular minutes with defensively responsible players such as Stuart, Zetterberg, and Filppula.

How? What? Which move could he have realistically done?

I don't know of a dman that has been moved that could replace lids, can I get a name?

Obviously nobody can replace Lidstrom, but there have been plenty of guys over the last couple of years who are legit top four defenders, and if you want a top four defenseman (or top six winger) and you aren't currently developing any in your farm, then you're going to have to overpay in free agency (or else watch them go somewhere else).  (2012) Carle, Wideman, Allen (2011) Wisniewski, Pitkanen, Erhoff, Jovanovski, Kaberle (2010) Paul Martin, Dan Hamhuis are all guys who were available and could have been signed.  I know some of them got s***ty contracts and all that, and maybe that would have been the case no matter what, but you never know who'd be willing to take less to avoid places like Florida, Buffalo, or Columbus.  That's the kicker though, it has to be a LITTLE bit less (in term or salary), you can't expect free agents to turn down millions of dollars in difference just because this is Detroit.  Every team has potential anymore.

I honestly believe the reason none of the above mentioned were signed is because nobody expected to lose Lidstrom and Stuart in the same year.

I don't think Kenny is a f*** up, but let's not pretend like there were simply no conceivable options for the last couple of years.

Are we talking about the same two people?  Because if we are then it should probably be pointed out that Kostitsyn's career high in points is lower than Semin's career average.  Kind of a no brainer.

I'm thoroughly convinced that the only reason anyone thinks Semin is lazy is because other people say Semin is lazy.  How often does he need to score in order to be considered consistent and not lazy?  Should he score as often as Zach Parise? Oh wait, he already does.  Should his plus/minus be better than Parise's?  Wait, it already is.  Maybe if he shot more or passed as much?  Wait, he does that too...and at a higher percentage.  About the only areas in which he and Parise don't match up are number of games played, and ice time.  Factor those in and Semin has done as well or better than Zach Parise in every major category with MUCH less time on ice.

His numbers also compare very favorably to Rick Nash and Bobby Ryan as well, and most of us (myself included) would be thrilled to have those guys.

There are a lot of negative things you can say about Semin, but lazy and inconsistent shouldn't be among them.

Unless we're dressing 15 or 16 forwards a night, we have more cap space than the 17 million we're talking about here.  So it's pretty hard to say that we're not signing people because we want to save money for next year.  Even with a signing (or two) we've still got a TON of money.

Also:  Every year we don't make a change and desperately hope that one of Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Jurco, or whomever is the next Datsyuk or Zetterberg is another year older for a core of guys who (even with Lidstrom and Stuart) couldn't get the job done.  It's really hard for me to believe that the same core that couldn't get the job done for the last three years (even with Lidstrom and Stuart) is going to be able to do it now.  Unless Sammy, Tootoo, and Gustavsson were the missing ingredients...ugh.  And even if Nyquist, Brunner, Jarnkrok, or Jurco come around and turn into high level guys, how far off is that, two years?  Three?  At which time Datsyuk will be Bertuzzi's age, Zetterberg and Kronwall will be Samuelsson's age, and Flip will be 30-31.  Who's the core then?