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Member Since 31 May 2011
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#2547602 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 06 November 2014 - 12:19 PM


The flip side of this is that a guy like Ericsson probably looks terrible playing D for a team like Toronto. Babcock's system may stunt player's offensive numbers, but it's probably helped win a few Selke's and made average defensemen good enough to play on the top pairing.


I agree.  But that's part of the problem isn't it?  Making average guys "look" good.  Does anybody remember when Ian White was Lidstrom's partner, and everybody kept commenting that White "looks" like a top pairing guy when playing next to Lids?  It was true, he "looked" fine.  Trouble was, Ian White ISN'T a top pairing defenseman.  And when the rubber hits the road he's going to play like a 2nd or 3rd pairing guy instead of a top pairing guy because that's what he is.  He didn't become better by playing with Lidstrom.  He mistakes were just less harmful. 


That's the by-product of Babs' system.  It can make Ericsson "look" like a number 2 defenseman.  It can make Darren Helm "look" like a top six forward.  And we all forget that ideally you don't want that.  Babs' system can make underachievers competitive sure.  But what happens when you run up against a team that's just as competitive, and has the right players in the right positions?  You get spanked.  Because an average player is an average player. 


Mind you, none if that is Babs' fault.  He plays with what he's got.  If KH wants average top four defense play, he should keep the top four he has now.  If he wants above average play, he needs better defensemen. 

#2547592 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 06 November 2014 - 10:49 AM

Trust me. I only want the treasurer's job as a temp spot.  I'm in the same club as you.  I think we've got a plethora of middling third pair defensemen.  Ship Kindl off to Edmonton or somewhere else players won't typically go. He's signed at a reasonable price for some of those teams for another two years (?)


Hudler's been okay off the Wings. Same with Flip. I can't and won't lament the fact that they're no longer Wings, in the same way that I can't and won't obsess about how prospects that we've traded away are doing. Does it sometimes suck when the player turns out to be great... or is it simply that they're flourishing in a different system/actually given an opportunity. It's the way the business side of the game works. Simple. As. That.

Ericsson isn't having the greatest of starts, but he's not as bad as some like to moan about.


I agree.  I said the same thing about Kindl and Smith the other day to krsmith.  I think they would both be much better under a different coach's system.  Babs doesn't want guys who wheel and deal and both those guys have skill sets conducive to a run and gun style of play.  Babs wants guys like Lids, Kronwall, and Rafalski who are all smart, heads up, defensemen who add offense through point shots and great passing.  Not Kind or Smith's game. 

#2547586 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 06 November 2014 - 10:17 AM

Lets be honest -- The eyeball test, your favorite players, and hated players all factor into the hows and whys of who and what we want for our team, but lets use the information that's available too.  WE'RE IN THE AGE OF ANALYTICS!  It's all out there to be had. Just make sure you use legit sources. Simple as that.


Some folks wouldn't trade Smith for anything.  Some wouldn't trade Jurco or Tatar.

Hell, some of us are still lamenting the Calle Jarnkrok trade... it's why we're here.

To talk about the team we love. Good or bad.


Also, kip... if you're the President of the "Kindl4Prez" fanclub, can I at least be the treasurer.  If he could just reign in the mistakes a bit, his value could be... well, at least decent.


Well don't misunderstand me.  I'm the President of his fan club only inasmuch as I want him to do well enough to get traded.  He's not a terrible third pairing defenseman but he gets paid too much and I really like some of those kids. 


Can Jurco still go to GR?


Yes.  He's still got minor league options. 


Kindl will be a "solid" D-man on LGW by this time next year. Then we'll all hate him again after a bad pass at some point.


If Kindl plays good enough for LGW to call him "solid" he'll be on another team next year.  Catch-22. 

#2547569 GDT 11/5/14--Wings @ Rangers

Posted by kipwinger on 06 November 2014 - 09:16 AM

I had to turn the game off a little early last night.  Do my eyes deceive me or did Jakub Kindl nab a goal and assist last night?


I hope he keeps that up for about 5 more games so we can trade his ass.


Anybody not on board the "Kindl 4 Prez" bandwagon right now doesn't love this team.


Simple as that.

#2546974 Clearly and Nestrasil in

Posted by kipwinger on 05 November 2014 - 06:48 PM

Man do I feel sorry for Dan Cleary tonight.  If he even breathes the wrong way LGW is going to explode.  To say he's under a microscope is the understatement of the season so far.

#2546926 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 05 November 2014 - 12:08 PM


I'm not sure playing under Mike "every-dayer" Babcock is the right place to bring out the best in Semin's game, where he's more likely to get benched than where he currently is (in Carolina, on the bench until last night).  I'll give you he's a pheneomenal goal scorer with one of the best shots in the league, which is precicesly what the Wings could use to round out their top six.  But he takes days off.  He doesn't play a complete game.  And this has been something consistent with him throughout his career.  Before he signed in Carolina that was the big knock on him.  He did well to regain his reputation for the first part of his contract in Carolina, but late last year he fell apart again, and from that point throughout the entirety of this season so far Semin has been more of a liability than an offensive threat.  Perhaps Babcock can clean up his game and get him working for 200 feet and bringing it every night, and if that happens he would be an awesome acquisition.  But if he continues to be Alex Semin as we curently know him, I think he'll be riding pine with Cleary for many nights, or playing on the third/fourth line, because I don't think Babcock will tolerate it as much as other coaches may have in the past.

Just a side note: the more I think on it, the more I realize how difficult it is to actually be an offensive powerhouse in Babcock's system.  Everyone plays defense first.  Everyone plays 200 feet.  Nobody takes risks to try to earn an odd-man rush or force a turnover if it means being out of position with noone to back you up.  They win as a team.  They lose as a team.  That's why I think it was so devastating to have lost out on Hossa, because he was one of the few players in the league who could do what Semin does, but also fit perfectly into a defense-oriented coaching philosophy.


I agree.  And I've said so a couple of times already.  Babs would hate his guts. 


But there's always a little bug in my brain when I think about this.  Remember when we had Brunner, and he didn't play s*** for defense, and he was largely invisible in every other way except that in the first part of the season he was scoring goals? 


There was a quote from Babs (that I'm trying to track down now) where he says something to the effect of "It's hard to take a guy out of the lineup if he's scoring". 


Also, and I said so in the GDT as well...If I've heard once, I've heard a thousand times about how Mike Babcock is the best at getting the most out of players.  "Every second, of every shift, of every game" seems to be the consensus when it comes to how well Babs' maximizes talent.  All last year we heard about how he dragged a bunch of kids into the playoffs through his ability to get the most out of guys.  Ok, prove it.  Give him this guy.  Huge talent, inconsistent.  Let's see how true it is.  Everybody can coach Pavel Datsyuk.  It would take a great coach to get the absolute most out of Semin. 

#2546906 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 05 November 2014 - 10:25 AM

Kip you need to be broken of this Semin obsession.


I've wanted a first rate shooter on Datsyuk's wing since Hossa left (that year he had almost 100 pts).  That's the last time we had someone to bury the myriad chances that Datsyuk creates.  When Gaborik was available I wanted Gaborik.  I wanted Nash before that.  Now that Semin's available I want Semin. 


There's no mistaking my obsession with this one guiding principle...we have one of the best playmakers of the last 20 years and nobody to finish for him.  Dats and Z are both going to get 20+ goals this year, with the right line combos so will Nyquist and Franzen.  Semin would too.  And Tatar will end up close...but it's iffy.  Think about that. 


It's not about Semin as a person.  Sometimes I think fans get attached to players' personalities as if professional sports is a popularity contest.  To me, Alexander Semin is nothing more than one of the best shooters in the NHL...and the only one available.  That skill set would look awfully nice along side one of the best passers in the game.  And what do you know, we happen to already have that guy. 

#2546901 GDT:11/4 Detroit Red Wings vs. Ottawa Senators 7:30p.m

Posted by kipwinger on 05 November 2014 - 09:52 AM

Wow people are really freaking out.  We played like absolute s*** the last 2 games and almost beat both teams.  Tatar/Jurco just need to adjust, hell it seems as though you can see those 2 slowly emerging from their slumps. Calm down everyone


First of all, nobody is "freaking out".  While it's probably easier to argue with someone after you've painted them as hysterical, for the sake of reasonable discourse maybe cut down on the hyperbole a little bit.


Secondly, I imagine people would be less freaked out if we were steam rolling teams and then just lost a stinker or two here and there.  But that's not really the case.  Only about half our victories are convincing, and many of our loses are brutal to watch.  Be can barely score goals, and our powerplay is a mess.  Then add on top of that, two loses in two games to two very bad teams and I think it's reasonable for people to be concerned.  Is this the end of the line for our team?  Nope.  But last season is starting to look vaguely familiar.

#2546865 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 05 November 2014 - 12:33 AM

I wouldn't mind semin at all. The problem is the five years left in his deal after this season. Or maybe it's six?

Also no way would I move smith for yandle. That's actually a downgrade on defense. I would like helm packaged in a deal though.


Semin has three years left on his contract after this year, and Yandle is about the same as Smith defensively (in that neither is terrible, nor are they great) and regularly puts up 50 pts.  The difference being that Yandle is an amazing transition player and PP quarterback who shoots right.  Weren't you the one bitching in the GDT about how our defensemen can't move the puck in transition?  Well here you go, Yandle is on of the best in the entire league at producing offense from the back end.  


Again, I'd rather move Quincey or Kindl than Smith, but you have to give to get.  And anybody who thinks Smith >/= Yandle is nuts. 

#2546862 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 05 November 2014 - 12:02 AM

Alex Semin? The same Alex Semin who's been a healthy scratch, and accumulated 0 goals and -7 in 9 games so far this year?
Yandle, yes, but I think the Coyotes would ask for more than Helm and Smith.


Coyotes wouldn't ask for that much this year, because if they tank (and they're close to it already) they get a shot at McDavid and Eichel.  They don't want to win.  If they really need more give them ONE of our good defense prospects in addition.


Say what you want about Semin, but history has shown the guy scores goals.  I know he's not doing s*** so far (Neither is anybody on Carolina's team), but he didn't forget how to score from last year (look as some of those snipes when you've got a minute).  Keep in mind I've got them retaining salary.  You don't think you could get enough goals out of him (with Datsyuk as his center) to justify 4.9 million?  I do.  Especially with that shot. 


Edit:  In 1994 the New York Rangers won the Stanley Cup.  On their roster was Alexei Kovalev, the laziest, floaterest, defensive liabilitiest, good for nothing, bad teammate the NHL had ever seen.  He had 22 goals and 33 assists in the regular season and 9 goals and 12 assists in the playoffs.  Sound familiar. 


Just imagine how good our PP would be.


Mostly this was just for fun though.  Obviously it's not happening...though it's feasible considering I gave good value AND didn't acquire anybody who isn't rumored to be available.  Can you blame me?  I sure as s*** wasn't entertained watching that stinker of a game. 

#2546857 GDT:11/4 Detroit Red Wings vs. Ottawa Senators 7:30p.m

Posted by kipwinger on 04 November 2014 - 11:23 PM

This team lacks identity.  We've got an organizational philosophy that values skill and puck possession, and a coach that wants to play a grinding, "heavy", crash and bang sort of game (as evidence, look how much our fourth line played tonight late in the game.  He clearly prefers grinding, dump and chase hockey).  Since the GM, roster, and drafting philosophy aren't going anywhere, Babs is going to have to make some adjustments to his game play to maximize the talent he's got.  If he does, we'll come around.  If he doesn't, we'll flounder. 


For years I've heard over, and over, and over again that Babs is the best in the business in getting the most out of his players.  Time to test that theory.  This is not an untalented team.  This is a team that's under performing.  Let's see how good he really is at maximizing the talent he's got. 


Also, Ken Holland, you listening?  We need a second line center and another PP capable defenseman. Seriously.  f***.

#2546611 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 04 November 2014 - 03:46 PM


Simply because we already have a second line center waiting to return. And if he returns your scenario would put us in a ridiculous bad position. We both agree on Helms abilities or the lack of them respectively  (and Franzen btw). But what we need is a short time solution to compensate for Weiss and in my opinion that means putting Helm on the wing.


Agreed that we're waiting to see if Weiss comes back and produces.  But that shouldn't change Helm's fate.  If Weiss does come back and is 100% and effective, then we've got two third line centers (Helm and Sheahan) and one needs to be traded.  If Weiss doesn't come back then we've got one guy (Helm) who's a good third line center but not a good enough second line center.  So pair him with prospects  and/or picks and trade him for a better one.  The only way Helm should stay on the team is if he (or Riley Sheahan) start producing like a second line center.  Otherwise he's at best redundant, and at worst not good enough. 

#2546604 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 04 November 2014 - 03:32 PM


Ok so who exactly IS putting up points to justify a top 6 position over Helm.  Don't see many guys stepping up...


I know this is a stretch, but here goes.


Why don't we leave the top line like it is.  And then pair Darren Helm with one or two of the 10,000,000 high quality NHL prospects we've got (that we don't have room for) and trade them for a second line center. 


Then you could have



Franzen-2nd line center-Nyquist




Jason Spezza and Ryan Kesler got moved for offers that we could have matched or beaten and we didn't make offers (Kesler had Detroit on his short list at last years' deadline, but not after we fell flat in the playoffs).  Not saying it had to be one of those guys...but lets not pretend like it's impossible to trade for a center.

#2546602 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 04 November 2014 - 03:26 PM


Some here say the same about Franzen. ;) No one is opting for a free for all here, but as long as our supposed second line center is out we have to make compromises and play guys on positions that aren't optimal. Helm isn't the perfect winger for sure but he should be better than Shehan who imho isn't ready to center a top 6 line yet.


Whoever says that Franzen doesn't produce consistent offense isf****** retarded.  That's the only thing he's done consistently his entire career.  Barring injury you'll get 20+ goals, and 40-50 pts. out of him like clock work. 


If you ever encounter someone who says Franzen doesn't produce consistent offense you should hit them in the head with a hammer. 


Conversely if you meet someone who says Helm doesn't produce consistent offense you should get them to tell you more things that are incredibly obvious and quantifiable statistically. 

#2546579 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 04 November 2014 - 01:59 PM

The problem isn't the position he is being played in, it's the role he is being played in. Helm shouldn't be relied on to play in the top 6 and put up big points, he should be relied on to forecheck hard, wear on the opponents, and chip in a few points...


So he should be a grinder?  I agree.  It's almost like, with his skill set, he'd be "the best third line center in the league".  Seems like I heard that about him once.  Instead of being the best third line center, he's been a mediocre scoring line winger.  How's that a good use of his talent?