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kipwinger

Member Since 31 May 2011
Online Last Active Today, 10:49 AM
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#2530642 Red Wings Target Mike Green

Posted by kipwinger on 08 July 2014 - 03:55 PM

i dont give a f*** what kind of points he can put up when he cant play defense. 

 

To be fair, literally half of our defense can NEITHER play defense NOR score points.  He's at least an improvement in that regard. 




#2530630 Red Wings Target Mike Green

Posted by kipwinger on 08 July 2014 - 02:31 PM

Why O Why does everyone think that the starting point for every single trade on earth is a high end prospect or roster player with upside?  None of Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, or Mantha would go the other way in a trade for Green.  Good god, just look at every other deadline deal for guys who aren't superstars.  You ever see those kinds of roster players or prospects going the other way for a teams fourth defenseman?

 

Anaheim got ONE top prospect, a mid tier prospect, and a 1st for Bobby Ryan...and he was under (a very affordable) contract.  Mike Green will DEFINITELY not cost us more than that. 

 

Where do these relative values come from?




#2530590 Hockey News: Red Wings D hunting

Posted by kipwinger on 08 July 2014 - 11:54 AM

That's the big question you would ask regarding Green.  Would you rather have a guy whose not very good defensively for $6mil or take a chance on Sproul to start the season and then try to trade for Green should it be determined that Sproul need more seasoning?  Sproul would save $5mil approx for the trade deadline, whereas Green will bring us up to the cap once Deke and Tatar are re-signed.

 

I'll be ok if we get Green cause he'll help our PP, and if he's on with Ericsson then he'll have a stay at home guy to play with, but I'd still rather see Sproul.

 

This is just me being a fanboy.  But I'm always ok with the idea of "going with Sproul".  This kid is going to be the next Doughty.  He was an absolute steal.  Size, speed, shot, athleticism, smarts.  I legitimately think he'll be a better player than Mantha even, but that's just me. 

 

Anyway, back on topic.  Green would help, but I'd definitely not trade too much to get him.  AND it would be wise to dump salary where you could to offset the acquisition (Kindl and Andersson). 




#2530576 Hockey News: Red Wings D hunting

Posted by kipwinger on 08 July 2014 - 10:10 AM

Another thing about Green is, I'm not sure how bad he really is defensively.  I mean, I'm positive he's not going to be some stud shutdown defender.  But I always take reports about Washington players being "lazy" or "bad defensively" or "not a team player" with a grain of salt.  They've bred a culture of lazy, defensively irresponsible, play for years.  When guys go there, they play poor defense and are lackluster, and when they leave they play good hockey. 

 

I think part of the reason why they picked Trotz was to change all that.  Green has the skating and size to be a decent defender, not great...but decent.  Like Rafalski.  Could Green be that for someone other than Washington?  I don't know.  But I'm pretty positive he's never, in his entire career, been asked to be up to this point. 




#2530546 Article on FAs and Red Wings

Posted by kipwinger on 08 July 2014 - 08:37 AM

There are probably a lot of reasons why we didn't have any luck landing FAs this year, but I thought this was interesting.  A quote from Patrick Eaves about joining the Stars...

 

"He's got a real good thing going down there. I know they're a hard team to play against and yeah, they're making moves. They're going places and I want to be a part of it," Eaves said on Monday.

 

Seems like if you haven't been successful in the recent past, and you're doing things to address that, players pay attention.  I'm certainly not suggesting that you "do something just to do it" or that Patrick Eaves is the kind of FA you want.  But rather that guys want to win, and they recognize when a team is trending upward or downward. 




#2530394 Hockey News: Red Wings D hunting

Posted by kipwinger on 07 July 2014 - 11:48 AM

I generally agree with you guys as far as trade values, but honestly, did anyone think Kenny would give up Jarnkrok and a 2nd for David Legwand on an expiring contract, or a 1st for Kyle Quincey? 

 

You really can't blame people for having strange views on trades, it's not like trading has been done competently in Detroit in a while.  People don't really have much to base their opinions on. 




#2530374 Hockey News: Red Wings D hunting

Posted by kipwinger on 07 July 2014 - 10:42 AM

My OPINION is that currently Smith is better at his position than Tatar, that Smith has a higher ceiling than Tatar, and that Smith brings more of what we need on this team than Tatar...

 

Based on what?  What has he accomplished that is anything like a rookie forward coming in and scoring 39 points? I don't expect Smith to have THE SAME accomplishments, that's dumb.  But if he was as good, I'd expect him to have EQUIVALENT accomplishments, which he doesn't. 

 

Also, what does he bring that we need?  He's an offensive defenseman who doesn't play defense and doesn't score many points.  He had fewer hits than any defenseman other than Kindl, and he doesn't play special teams. 

 

You keep saying that he brings so much, or that he's better than Tatar.  Tell me what he did and what he brings to the team. 

 

I'm dying to know. 




#2530364 Hockey News: Red Wings D hunting

Posted by kipwinger on 07 July 2014 - 09:57 AM

More points does not mean better. Datsyuk was quite a bit ahead of him in other areas.

 

Agreed.  But that doesn't take away from the fact that Tatar just did something REALLY impressive.  To move him now for a project defenseman would be silly. 

 

As I said, I'd move him as part of a package for an established player.  But not for a guy who's got as many holes in his game as Myers does. 


I agree Kip, it is definitely unfair to put Smith and Tatar in the same boat, they play completely different positions... You can't compare entering the NHL as a defenseman to a winger, it is MUCH harder to adapt to the best league in the world as a defender then it is as a winger, everybody knows that... don't they?

 

I think Smith is going to be a much better player in this league, and definitely a lot more valuable to his team in just a year or two from now. I like Tatar and I wouldn't give him away but I do think he is the most expendable on our team and would be a great starting point to any package deal. I just found it funny that you were upset that everyone was placing Tatar in all these trade scenarios, when you place Smith (the guy with the higher ceiling :P) in all the same type trade scenarios...

 

Smith doesn't have a higher ceiling.  I'm not sure where you got that.  Tatar is a Calder Cup MVP and Olympian, who just had a fantastic rookie year.  Smith has done nothing of note since not winning the Hobie Baker award in college. 

 

Why is his ceiling higher again?




#2530360 Hockey News: Red Wings D hunting

Posted by kipwinger on 07 July 2014 - 09:38 AM

In reality this is hardly a tough decision ask yourself this:

 

Would you trade Tatar, a first and a cap dump for a young Chara, Pronger ? Personally I would but everbody is different.

 

Chara and Pronger could both play defense.  Myers is HORRIBLE defensively.  He's also not even close to as physical as those guys.  God knows how much you like physicality and defensive responsibility.  You're mesmerized by his size and think that means we'll be tougher.  We won't.  He's not a tough guy.  He's tall and skinny.  And worse, he's got terrible lateral skating.  Dudes blow by him. 

 

I'd gladly trade Tatar for young Pronger.  Younger Pronger was big, strong, tough, defensively responsible, imposing, and chipped some offense.  Myers chips in offense...and that is all.  They are nothing alike. 

 

I'd also trade Tatar for Yandle...or Edler...or Bogosian or anybody who's an established player.  But I'm not willing to move him for a project...no matter how tall he is. 




#2530355 Hockey News: Red Wings D hunting

Posted by kipwinger on 07 July 2014 - 09:20 AM

I agree with you Kip, I'd much prefer to keep Tatar then trade him in a package for a project player such as Myers. However, I'm definitely not near as high on Tatar as you, I'm not sure if anyone is... :tounge2: I feel that he is the most expendable out of the young forwards, including Nyquist, Jurco, Sheahan, Mantha, and although I may be alone in thinking this, I'd add Pulkkinen to that list as well.

 

I guess you know how I feel when I see everyone putting Smith in every trade package scenario, including yourself... There are always going to be fans angry about losing specific players, it's just the nature of the beast. I just think we should keep all of our young guys for now, including Tatar AND Smith. ;)

 

You're certainly welcome to like whatever players you want.  But there's a huge difference between trading a guy who excelled as a rookie (Tatar) and a guy who struggled as a rookie (Smith).  I have never, ever, denied that Smith has potential.  I'm not denying it now.  But I think it's hugely revisionist to put him in the same boat as Tatar.  Being REALLY forgiving and giving Smith extra gold stars for his late season improvements, he was still only pedestrian as a rookie.  Tatar, on the other hand, was sixth in rookie scoring behind McKinnon, Palat, Nyquist, Tyler Johnson, and Krug.  Not too shabby.

 

 

While that is true, it is also kind of misleading. In 2002, Pav was playing his rookie season on a team of legends. He was playing behind superstars such as Stevie Y, Federov, Shanny, Hull, and so on. He did not get that much playing time and did not get much powerplay time. In contrast, Tatar was relied on by the Wings this season because of injuries. He got close to 20 min a game at some points this season. I am not saying Tatar is not good, but that is misleading to say. However, I do agree with you that I think it is a mistake to trade him away unless it is for an Erik Karlson.

 

Pav's average TOI (as a rookie) was 13:39 with 1:59 of PP time per game.  Even strength, he was playing with Brett Hull, who scored 37 goals and 76 points that year.  His power play time was also spent feeding legends. 

 

Tatar's average TOI was 14:21 per game with 2:17 of PP time per game.  The difference of about one additional shift per game when compared to Datyuk.  Plus, Tatar didn't play with a hall of famer.  Hell, he didn't even play with an all star.  He played with Riley Sheahan and Tomas Jurco who combined for about a third of the number of points Hull put up on Datsyuk's wing.  You think Tatar might have a few more assists if he was passing to Brett Hull?   

 

His rookie season was more impressive.  If you didn't already know that the first guy was Datsyuk, you'd surely agree. 




#2530335 Hockey News: Red Wings D hunting

Posted by kipwinger on 07 July 2014 - 07:06 AM

Everyone here is aware that Tatar just had a better rookie season than Datsyuk right?  He's also about 200% more gritty than the majority of our team.  How on earth is everybody so willing to trade him away for a project defenseman.  Because that's what Myers is, lest we forget.  A project.  Just like the countless other projects we've acquired over the last five years which haven't panned out. 

 

I, for one, am not willing to move a guy who just scored 39 points buried on our third line (with rookie linemates) for a guy that Buffalo fans affectionately nicknamed "The Gentle Giant". 

 

Trade for someone better, or don't trade.  I prefer the latter actually.  No more shortcuts.  That's what got us into this mess. 




#2530297 Hockey News: Red Wings D hunting

Posted by kipwinger on 06 July 2014 - 07:52 PM

Anybody willing to trade ANY of our good forwards for Tyler Myers will be very disappointed in a couple of years when these guys are regularly putting up 50 pts. and Myers is still regularly being a huge pud.  Just say no!  If this guy were a franchise defenseman then Buffalo would be trying to lock him up long term, not trade him.  I can't stress enough what a bad idea it would be to trade any of our young forwards for this guy.  We'll overpay on the trade, we'll overpay on the salary, and we'll be left standing with a guy who, if he were 6'1 and 205 lbs., nobody would consider trading this much for. 




#2529665 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 02 July 2014 - 10:34 PM

Tatar isn't a surefire top 6 player yet. What universe? The modern NHL. And the fact that every team has us over a barrel. But its moot now since it sounds like Holland is set with the team we have. Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

 

Tatar just had a better rookie season than Datsyuk did, on a much worse team.  I'm not sure what else he's got to prove for you to think he's a future top six player. 

 

As far as your asking price for Green.  I don't think Washington would even ask that with a straight face.  Holland's the king of making moves from a position of weakness, but even then, he's insane.  He gave a prospect and a pic for a top six center in Legwand and that was universally considered an overpayment.  Asking for a future top six forward in return for a guy on an expiring contract, who isn't a first pair defender, isn't happening.  I can't think of even a single example. 




#2529638 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 02 July 2014 - 08:50 PM

I wish Holland had the stones to offer sheet Johansen or O'Reilly. I would give up multiple first rounders for those guys. Worth an overpayment to get a player of that talent and we already have a strong prospect pool (except top 6 C).

 

A week ago he probably could have traded for O'Reilly and not had to go to all that effort.  He doesn't want to be there, and had the return been cheaper than his contract Colorado would likely have been able to keep Paul Stastny.  But Holland's player acquisition skills, such as they are, don't allow him to make those sorts of shrewd business moves. 

 

Also, you're crazy if you'd trade Tatar over Nyquist.  He's harder to play against than Nyquist by a mile.  Everybody is always clamoring for Detroit to get tougher, and then when confronted by two guys who are roughly equal in talent they want to keep the softer one because he's flashier.  Stick Nyquist on the third line and let his ultra lucky shooting percentage come back to earth and they probably produce the same amount of points too. 




#2529629 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 02 July 2014 - 08:35 PM

No.  I don't think Pulks has much value.  It'd have to be Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan or Jurco, and I think only the first two would draw any interest.

 

A trade for an injury prone, one dimensional, offensive defenseman in the last year of an overpriced contract is going to require a young, future top six, roster player in return?  In what universe?