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Member Since 31 May 2011
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#2525214 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 23 June 2014 - 10:01 AM

I don't even know what to think.  We've got all the money in the world.  We've got so many young assets that we don't have spots for them all.  We've got a trade market flush with high end players because ten other teams are looking to shake up their rosters too. 


If this isn't the perfect time to make substantial moves then I don't know when is.  I'm all for the idea of drafting and developing as a means to success, but surely Holland doesn't believe that you should exclusively do that and only augment your team with role players. But it's starting to look that way. 


I'm just confused.  I have no idea where his head's at or what he's thinking. 

...but in the same breath he mentions Moulson and Stastny.  Those are names I could live with.


As far as defense goes... Those are fine.  Not what I really want, but Stralman has simplified his game and would be a solid piece.  Morris and Gilbert are decent puck-movers.  Can't complain too much.  If we're not going for broke I don't see why we'd want to take on Boyle (he wants cash and term) and Robidas is just aged and broken down. (38 and 48 games played in the last two years)


I'm not sure how adding mediocre pieces to a mediocre team makes us better.  I think he's hedging his bets that we'll be better with the growth of the young guys.  But their growth is entirely offset by the decline in our vets.  Does anybody really think that Dats, Z, Franzen will be healthy this year?  And if they aren't, does anybody really believe that the kids will offset that?  Even with the additions of Stralman or Boyle or Jokinen? 

#2525200 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 23 June 2014 - 08:24 AM

I don't really think this needs to become a Jurco vs. Pulkinnen debate.  They're both good players.  Neither of them would be where they are if they weren't good players. 


I'm more reluctant to lose Jurco because I know how long this team has been looking for a big, strong, fast, goal scorer.  Now that we have what looks to be one (actually two with Mantha) I'd prefer to see what we've got and hang on to him while he develops.


But I understand why people would hate to lose Pulkinnen.  You don't see a shot like that everyday.  If we already had a handful of big bodied forwards (who could score, sorry Abby), I'd definitely prefer to keep Pulkinnen.  But we don't, so Jurco is the greater organizational need right now. 

#2525124 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 22 June 2014 - 11:56 AM

There's no identity crisis. There's no philosophical quandary. We simply don't have enough top-level talent. Our top four has gone from Lidstrom-Rafalski/Kronwall-Stuart to Kronwall-Ericsson/DeKeyser-Smith. Our top six has gone from Datsyuk in his prime, Zetterberg in his prime, Franzen in his prime, Hossa in his prime, Holmstrom, and Filppula to Datsyuk at 35 (and coming off an injury-ravaged season), Zetterberg at 33 (and coming off an injury-ravaged season), Franzen's corpse at 34 (and coming off an injury-ravaged season), the ghost of Stephen Weiss (RIP), Abdelkader, and...Nyquist? And Jimmy Howard has never made it past the second round.


Wouldn't the failure to have the roster necessary to carry out your gameplan constitute an identity crisis?  Necessitating a change in roster or a change in gameplan in order to rectify it?  Certainly a team full of guys who can't play the style the coach, GM, and scouts are promoting would fall into that category for me.  I agree we don't have high end talent right now, but if we go out and get it, and it doesn't compliment what we've already got/is suited for a style of game we don't play, then I don't think it'll help much. 


Loading up on talent without having an identity isn't always the best thing in the world.  Which is probably the reason why Columbus is a better team WITHOUT Carter, Nash, Gaborik, and Horton than they've ever been with them.  They've got an identity now.  Every name that gets bandied about is met with an "oooooh aaaaah" from myself and every other Wings fan.  But it might be worth thinking about whether these guys will actually fit with what we've got now, and fit with what we want to be in a few years.  Because sadly, aside from some fancy individual stats, adding a guy like Joe Thornton isn't going to help us.  We don't have the team, system, coach, or philosophy to maximize his incredible talent. 

#2525113 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 22 June 2014 - 10:50 AM

Read this and thought it was noteworthy:

Helene St. James of the Detroit Free Press: St. James has been running a series of potential targets for the Red Wings. If the Wings were to go after Coyotes Keith Yandle, they would be looking for at least one of Gustav Nyquist, Tomas Tatar, Tomas Jurco, Anthony Mantha and a high draft pick. The Coyotes could also ask for another player, such as Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm or Jakub Kindl.


I would pull the trigger if it was Jurco and any of Abby, Helm, or Kindl and a first rounder.


We finally get a big scoring winger, I'm not moving that kid until I know what I've got in him.  I'd rather lose Nyquist or Tatar than Jurco.  He'll end up better than both in a few years when he's their age.  Nyquist, on the other hand, has the highest value he'll ever have.  Riding an unsustainable shooting percentage into "the next big thing" territory.  He'd be the guy I'd move, but not for Yandle (who is awesome but too expensive). 


Anyway long story short, moving Jurco is a bad idea.  Big, fast, skilled, physical, scoring forwards don't come along often.  Small, skilled, euros with puck skills are a dime a dozen. 

#2524977 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 20 June 2014 - 11:37 PM

O'Reilly is not a physical player. He had all of two penalty minutes and 22 credited hits last season. Even Nyqyist had 18 hits in about 25 fewer games.

That said, O'Reilly does have tremendous hustle and defensive instincts. But I doubt that's what you meant by "difficult to play against".


That's exactly what I meant by difficult to play against actually lol.  Not penalties, or fighting, or whatever.  I mean guys who are hard to play against because they go balls to the walls, aren't timid, and can't be intimidated. 


An example of that I'm talking about was in this years Montreal v. Boston series.  Look at a guy like Dale Weise.  He skated his ass off, worked hard, finished checks, and was generally hard for Boston to deal with.  All this despite his not being a fighter or penalty taker.  Another example is Dubinsky for Columbus.  Or Helm for us.  Remember Helm against Phoenix a couple years back?  Jovanovski had no way of dealing with Helm's forecheck.  It completely ruined his series.  O'Reilly is hard to play against like that.  So is Kesler.  So is Umberger.  These are the types of guys I'd be targeting.  Not the Thorntons (Joe or Shawn), Perrons, Vaneks, Moulsons, etc.  We've got the skill already.  And we don't have the makeup to switch over to full on power (e.g. Boston, Anaheim, LA, San Jose).  But we could be a better Montreal or Columbus (as I've already said).

#2524964 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 20 June 2014 - 10:07 PM

Another question I've been asking myself when it comes to what we need/want this offseason is this:  What kind of  team are we, and what kind of team do we want to be?


It's clear that there's a lot of talent available this offseason.  A whole lot of teams aren't happy with the outcomes of their seasons and are looking to shake up their rosters.  But just because a guy is talented, or has played the right role in the past, doesn't mean he's a fit.  For a few years now I've felt we were a team without an identity.  Not skilled enough to be a skill team, not gritty enough to be a gritty team, and not big enough to be a power team.  Now we've got some young talent coming along which displays some skill, and was drafted as such.  Do we keep going in that direction and try to overwhelm teams with pure skill?  Do we augment it with power?  Do we augment it with grittiness?  


Personally, I think we can't expect playoff success on pure skill. Teams keep us to the outside and block shots.  And we don't have the core go completely over to power like a Boston or Anahiem (whose best players are huge).  I think the smartest move is to go gritty.  Replace just a little bit of high end skill for fast, tough, rough guys.  Be like a better version of Montreal or Columbus.  Which would preclude acquiring guys like Thornton or Perron.  But that's just me. 

#2524857 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 20 June 2014 - 12:41 PM

No, because, as I posted earlier, Weiss and Andy in package for Kesler to play on Datsyuks wing.

Tatar in a package for Dumbo Jumbo.

Kesler Datsyuk Franzen

Zetterberg Thorny Nyquist

Jurco Sheahan Pulkinen

Miller Glendening Abdelskater

It can happen, and it will.


I appreciate your certainty lol. 

#2524855 Shawn Thornton will not be returning to the Bruins

Posted by kipwinger on 20 June 2014 - 12:34 PM


That's the benefit of having guys like McGrattan on the roster if you take liberties they are not going to ask if you want to fight them, they jump you MacIntyre style. All I can say is watch Marchand bringing a much cleaner game now, because Lucic has been told to fight less and Chiarelli doesn't want Chara to fight either. Thornton is a very special player sometimes - more often than not - father time just sucks.


 Special how?  I get that you like enforcers, and I'm certainly not going to try and talk you out of it, but you're starting to inflate Thornton's qualities into something mythic.  Even as far as enforcers go he's not all that great. 

#2524831 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 20 June 2014 - 11:43 AM


Tell that to Guinness, who've marketed their beer for years over here with the slogan 'good things come to those who wait'


Haha what do they know?  They just sell beer.  Did Michael Jackson make "Thriller" by waiting around?  Did Steve overtake Johannes as the greatest Gutenberg while taking it easy?  Did Hulk Hogan pick up and slam a GIANT by resting on his laurels?


Didn't think so. 

#2524816 Todd Bertuzzi will not be re-signed

Posted by kipwinger on 20 June 2014 - 11:08 AM


Why? I mean I have nothing against Bert, but no sympathy really. He nearly killed Steve Moore after all. Really he should have been banned for life. 


I like a good redemption story. 

#2524811 Todd Bertuzzi will not be re-signed

Posted by kipwinger on 20 June 2014 - 11:01 AM

He could just sign with a real contender now.


I wish.  Seriously, I'd really love for Bert to get a Cup.  I've got nothing but sympathy for the guy.  I'd rather he win one than Alfie. 

#2524808 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 20 June 2014 - 10:46 AM

If it took Jarnkrok + a 2nd to land Legwand... sigh. I'll admit Joe has skill, but I'm sure most of us would be uncomfortable with the asking price/actual payment. Good to see Kenny kicking tires, though.


Jesus what a nightmare.  I really hate dwelling on that trade because I realize we were over a barrel (sort of).  But every time I see it written down on this site I want to puke.  That package would go a long way toward landing Ryan Kesler right now, AND he'd be under contract. 


Kudos to Poile on the MASSIVE trade rape. 

#2524800 Todd Bertuzzi will not be re-signed

Posted by kipwinger on 20 June 2014 - 10:07 AM

And thus ends my long time dream of cheering wildly as Todd Bertuzzi is handed the Stanley Cup first after it is presented to Zetterberg (and cheering all the more wildly knowing that the rest of the hockey world is HATING what they're seeing). 

#2524743 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 19 June 2014 - 11:00 PM

:yahoo: You're my boy!!

Welcome aboard the U.S.S. Positivity.  I'll be your Captain.  We're currently sailing though some choppy waters over the next two weeks of our voyage.  Please keep your life-preservers handy.


Ahhh... the good old strawman. He's a sight for sore eyes on these forums.  

He didn't strawman your position. 

He clearly broke down your position into A) You wanna win the cup every year... and he said that isn't very realistic. 

He then went on to say that in his opinion, B) he disagrees that the team is not taking steps towards that goal because he thinks the team is trending upwards not downwards.  ...and then went on to give his opinion.


He's also gone on to state your overall position very plainly. 

You're not as they say, "A glass half-full type of guy"   ...and that's okay. Own it, FFS.

  It's not as if you're not making salient points, Shamen. 

You just have to understand that while everyone wants to win or contend for the Cup every year. 

Not everyone is going to be as down or as pessimistic about the future as you seem to be.

...and that's okay too.  ...just stop pretending that you're not Debbie Downer.


There might be a plan.  Hell, maybe Holland finally has a plan A, B, and C.  As for us, all of us here.  Yeah. We're all grasping at straws. Desperately.  :lol:



Finally, and this goes for ALL OF YOU!

Yes, we say we should wait for FA and the draft and etc. because well, YOU KIND OF HAVE TO! 



...or would you rather us throw fifth rounders at Dan Boyle for no good reason.


You're on a roll tonight buddy! 

Keep everyone on an even keel. Lord knows we need it.  And here's hoping you're rewarded for your faith. 

#2524730 Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

Posted by kipwinger on 19 June 2014 - 09:46 PM

We may not have so many after trading starts. Realistically we have Datsyuk, Weiss, Helm, Sheahan. Weiss can play wing and Helm may end up traded. Andersson just isn't good and can also be traded.

A middle of Datsyuk, Thornton, Weiss/Helm and Sheahan doesn't make anyone else excited? That's powerful and Cup worthy. We could still use a new winger but if we upgrade the defense we may not need one.


I mean, I don't want to sound overly pessimistic because those are all good centers.  But I was already excited at the thought of Dats, Weiss, Sheahan, Helm. 


But it doesn't make a bit of difference if their wingers have hammer hands (Abby) or weight 175 lbs. (Tatar, Nyquist) or are Franzen.  We've already got good centers.  I want wingers with size.


I will admit that Joe would probably make Franzen a superstar overnight.  And he'd be good for Mantha's development too.  Really good.  Mantha would score a zillion goals with Joe passing to him.