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Member Since 31 May 2011
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#2537725 9/29 Exhibition GDT : Maple Leafs 0 at Red Wings 3

Posted by kipwinger on 29 September 2014 - 08:40 PM

I don't know about everyone else, but I'd really like that point shot on the Red Wings powerplay. 

#2537603 Babcock "I don't think it will be my final year here"

Posted by kipwinger on 29 September 2014 - 03:49 PM


No kidding. 


My point was that people tend to overrate prospects and it's incredibly hard to predict how they will fare in the NHL, even for professionals.



Like these future Red Wings:


"He is a man amongst boys sometimes. He's not overly physical, but he takes the man and plays the body and he's got a little chip on his shoulder at times. But he's more of a skilled guy." -- Red Wings director of amateur scouting Joe McDonnell (December 2005)  "He's gotten stronger. He still needs to get a little bit stronger, but at training camp, he came close to making the team. He was definitely good enough to play and stick there. He's the kind of guy who plays better with better players. Down the road, I would think he's going to be a top-four guy. He's good on the power play and he's a real smart kid." -- McDonnell (October 2006) 



"He's got very good hockey sense, good stick skills, and he's a Red Wings type of player, the way he thinks the game. We think he's a top two line player. Like with all kids, he needs to improve his strength. He needs to work on his leg strength and get his skating a little bit stronger, but it's just the maturing of the body." -- Red Wings assistant general manager Jim Nill (June 2006) ... "His hockey sense is his best asset. He's a very smart player. He's just got to get bigger and stronger, but he's a pretty well-rounded guy." -- Red Wings director of amateur scouting Joe McDonnell (October 2006) ...



That's Kindl and Emmerton.



I hope these young guys turn into NHL d-men, I just don't think you really can tell too much until they get time with the big club. 


I get what you're saying but I think you're over simplifying a bit.  I mean, scouts lauded Emmerton and scouts lauded Nyquist.  But it would be silly to suggest that there's no telling which of the two would be a better NHLer until they get to the big club.  You could tell by their AHL careers who would be better before they ever touched the NHL.  One dominated that league, and one was average.  That's all I'm saying about these d-men.  Jakub Kindl in his best AHL season wasn't as good as Ryan Sproul just was as a rookie.  Does that guarantee that Sproul will be stud NHLer?  Absolutely not.  But it's a pretty good indication that he'll be better than Jakub Kindl.  I don't think it's fair to say "we don't know until they get there".  We know how these guys project, and we know how far along their developmental trajectories they are based on how well they're playing against their current level of competition.  So I think it's safe to draw SOME conclusions from that.  Not guarantees.  But certainly conclusions. 

#2537593 Babcock "I don't think it will be my final year here"

Posted by kipwinger on 29 September 2014 - 02:38 PM


Admittedly I don't know a ton about our prospects.  I guess after seeing so many promising prospects wash out over the years, I have a fairly conservative view on how many will actually turn into full time NHL defensemen.  People here were saying the Wings had the deepest defensive prospects in the league in 2007.


People here say a lot of things.

#2537577 Babcock "I don't think it will be my final year here"

Posted by kipwinger on 29 September 2014 - 12:48 PM



Babcock has some young talent to work with on offense, but the blueline basically has three consistent NHL defenseman and a potluck for the other half.  Then there's also the question of which Jimmy Howard will show up. 


It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world , but in terms of changes that could bring the Wings more success, I would put letting Babcock at or near the bottom of that list.


Agreed, which is why I said wait and see how the season turns out. 


But I disagree with your second point.  Babs has got plenty of good young talent on defense too.  But we'll never know how much better we'd be if he doesn't play them.  Hence his perplexing "Kindl and Lashoff's jobs are safe" interview.  We've got to remember that until injuries forced his hand a year ago he wasn't aware of what he had on offense either.  When it comes to playing young guys, Babs is risk averse.  Which I'd understand if our team was really good.  But it isn't.  So I don't see the problem in tinkering with the defense given the dirth of talent we've got sitting in GR. 

#2537565 Ericsson/Smith Day-to-Day with groin/hip flexor issues

Posted by kipwinger on 29 September 2014 - 11:31 AM


#2537564 Babcock "I don't think it will be my final year here"

Posted by kipwinger on 29 September 2014 - 11:30 AM


Agreed. Plus, you know Blashill is already on a lot of team's radars. If we resign Babs, Blashill is pretty much as good as gone. 


I agree, and I'd be really reluctant to see him go.  I like his system.  He believes in team defense, but he seems more amenable to offense than Babs does.  Babs seems to want to win every game the way the Canadian Olympic Team did.  Which would be fine if you were winning those close games, but we don't.  With guys like Dats, Z, Franzen, Nyquist, Tatar, Weiss, and hopefully Mantha and Jurco (by the end of the season) there's no reason not to have a pretty good offense.  So hopefully we won't be hearing "we don't have the skill to play like we used to", because this team has a good bit more skill (on the front end) than the 2008 team did. 

#2537551 Babcock "I don't think it will be my final year here"

Posted by kipwinger on 29 September 2014 - 10:51 AM

I'd rather he not sign until we see how the season turns out.  Coaches have a shelf life and while I don't know if Babcock has reached his...it's certainly possible.  Why not wait to see what happens?  We've got a team that should be pretty competitive.  Lots of good veterans and young up and comers.  If the team stays relatively healthy and still underwhelms, I'd take that as a sign that Babs' has taken the team as far as he can and I'd hand the reigns over to Blashill.  If they play above their heads, or are Cup competitive, re-sign him. 

#2537483 2014 Preseason Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 28 September 2014 - 09:53 AM

I guess auto correct got us both.

My point was McCarty would never back down from a fight, even if he knew he would get his ass beat. Yes chara was acting like a little girl, but if you're supposed to be an enforcer and you're vying for a spot on the team, showcase the fact that you won't take s*** from anyone. Don't do the Phil kessel. Even Smith was ready to go with chara last year.

Edit: auto correct strikes again.


What's Callahan going to do, bleed on him?  He's 6ft. and 195 lbs.  There's no honor or virtue in getting mauled by a giant. 



#2537440 Datsyuk 2nd degree separated shoulder injury - out approx 4 weeks

Posted by kipwinger on 27 September 2014 - 03:42 PM

You're definitely stretching my words with the magic cure comment. I do think that playing with Zetterberg and Datsyuk will help out Helm more than Miller and Abdelkader and whoever else he usually plays with.


Filppula had his career year when he was moved to Zetterberg's wing. Don't argue that Helm isn't Filppula, i know, i know. The point is it often helps centermen production when they switch to wing and don't have all the same defensive responsibility. It does depend on how they make the transition, but I don't see it as that likely that Helm won't be able to play wing.


I don't know about the boner comment, Helm was relegated to the 4th line last year. He's too good for the 4th line. We've got too many centers - not enough elite wingers. Like i said twice, i just think it's worth a shot. 


If you're looking for an "elite winger" why would you look to an average center?  And if we've got so many high end prospects and middling centers, why don't we package a few of them up for an "elite winger".  Putting Helm on Datsyuk's wing isn't going to give Helm hands all of a sudden.  It will just take the spot away from someone who does have hands...like Jurco, or Mantha, or Tatar. 


As for your Filppula comparison.  I agree, his best year came on the wing with Zetterberg.  Now go look at his career numbers.  His goal scoring didn't improve much that year on the wing.  His assists, on the other hand, went WAY up.  So while he did have better number on the wing, it's not because he was scoring many more goals.  It's because he was passing to better finishers (notably Zetterberg). 


Edit:  I get your point, "it's worth a shot".  But this is a professional sports team.  I would hope we'd have a better strategy for improving our team than "it's worth a shot", or "it couldn't hurt", or "meh, what the hell". The fact that we've got the wrong personnel to address our needs, and keep trying to put bandaids over bullet holes may contribute largely to the dismal result our team has seen since 2009.  Sure, it probably wouldn't kill us to try Helm there.  But isn't there at least one or two other options with a higher probability of success?

#2537427 Datsyuk 2nd degree separated shoulder injury - out approx 4 weeks

Posted by kipwinger on 27 September 2014 - 01:22 PM

Helm : 12 goals in 42 games without Z or Dats. 15 goals in 82 games doesn't sound like an upgrade. Let's at least give him a chance in this new role before we consign him to the same category as Abby. 


Helm rode an unsustainably high shooting percentage to the best numbers of his career and then fell off completely.  He'll never post numbers like that again in his career.  Take it to the bank. 

#2537385 2014 Preseason Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 26 September 2014 - 11:26 AM

I don't want Cleary to fail. I personally love the guy and his work ethic. He was a great story for the Red Wings and a key contributor for years. That being said, I don't want Dan Cleary around if it's more of the same with him again and he can't contribute anything at all. He really shouldn't even be here for starters based on performance, but he is and he should have to earn his playing time just like every prospect does.

I think that's where most people sit with Cleary. Maybe there a few wanting him to fail. However, I believe the consensus is that Dan Cleary needs to show something to deserve even getting those ten games. Because right now, he offers the least out of any forward on the roster.


If it's "more of the same" with Cleary and he's still on the ice then it's not his fault.  It's Babcock's. 

#2537383 2014 Preseason Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 26 September 2014 - 11:21 AM


I'm with you on the Cleary bashing, but not completely about Kindl.  


He doesn't deserve whipping boy status, but my frustration with Kindl is he was supposed to be, and more importantly has the skillset to be much more than a tweener defenseman.  Even then, him not living up to that potential wouldn't be as big of a deal had Holland not handed him a 4 year contract, which I don't blame Kindl for. 


Either way, yes it would be nice to hope these guys succeed rather than salivate at their potential mistakes. 


I completely agree.  What gets me is that everyone ALREADY knows they're going to make mistakes.  That's what bottom end talent does...league wide.  Every single team in the league has bottoms end talent making mistakes, and yet when our guys do it there's a huge "I told you so" uproar.  It's dumb.  If these guys didn't make mistakes, they'd be top end talent. 

#2537381 Datsyuk 2nd degree separated shoulder injury - out approx 4 weeks

Posted by kipwinger on 26 September 2014 - 11:14 AM


The team lacks physical/mental toughness as well as has a dearth of skill. But I believe that you have to upgrade with what's available to you. If skill is available than you upgrade skill. If toughness is available then toughness should be upgrade, hell if there is a way to upgrade both than by all means do both. 

How exactly are you going to upgrade your special teams, puck movement from the back end, scoring depth, or shoddy goaltending with "toughness"?  The kinds of guys that Ryan Barnes is arguing for (e.g. goons) don't play special teams, don't move the puck well, don't limit shots on the goalie, and don't provide scoring depth.  They maybe...maybe...could help keep other guys healthy...maybe.  But that's it. 


This whole argument that we've been bad because we're not "tough enough" completely overlooks the fact that there are a lot of SERIOUS problems with our team that have nothing to do "toughness".  Fortunately many of the problems outlined above are resolved by adding Nyquist, Jurco, Tatar, Mantha, Ouellet, Sproul, and Marchenko (none of whom are goons, but all of whom are skilled) and removing/demoting Kindl, Lashoff, Quincey, Cleary, Bertuzzi, Sammy, etc (some of whom are tough, none of whom are skilled). 


By adding more skill, our real problems are likely to get solved.  By adding goons you solve zero real problems and only address this "toughness" deficiency which isn't really tied to anything tangible anyway.

#2537375 Datsyuk 2nd degree separated shoulder injury - out approx 4 weeks

Posted by kipwinger on 26 September 2014 - 10:35 AM

We have more skill than toughness, so why exclude one or the other?


I'd argue that we've got plenty of toughness and not enough skill. 


For the last several years we've had awful special teams, defensemen that can't pass the puck without turning it over, marginal goaltending, injuries, and ZERO scoring depth. 


More skill will help ALL of those things, more toughness will help exactly ONE of those things.

#2537371 2014 Preseason Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 26 September 2014 - 10:16 AM

Just trying to make the point that just because he was -2 doesn't mean he's the worst player ever and since the best player we had in the game also was -2 it probably shouldn't be used as a "omg cleary sux."

I agree he's playing for a job and if he wants one he needs to play well, but a stat line that says -2 doesn't tell me anything about how he personally played.


Didn't you know..."OMG Cleary does suxs"!  For the remainder of the season, whenever possible, Cleary, Quincey, and Kindl will be ragged on and denigrated to the absolute maximum.  Because, ya know, a bottom six forward at the end of his career and tweener defensemen make all the difference in the world to the teams success.