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Member Since 31 May 2011
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#2566735 Larkin or Mantha?

Posted by kipwinger on 29 January 2015 - 01:55 PM

All this O'Reilly for Larkin+ talk is silly anyways.  


Colorado doesn't need centers. They need a top 2-4 defenceman with comparable value and we don't have that to trade.


Agree.  I've been talking in hypothetical this whole time.  In no way to I think this actually happens.  First, because of the reasons you said.  And secondly, because I don't think Ken Holland would do a first rounder from a year ago wrong like that. Not his style. 

#2566698 Larkin or Mantha?

Posted by kipwinger on 29 January 2015 - 09:36 AM

haha I didn't expect this topic to "explode" like this lol


It was only hypothetical, barring trading for a superstar I'm not trading either


I think that's understood.  As I've said already, I think everybody would agree that none of our quality prospects should be traded for a tin of beans.  But it's always fun to speculate on guys' values and the types of packages you could put together around them. 

#2566695 1/27 GDT : Red Wings 5 at Panthers 4

Posted by kipwinger on 29 January 2015 - 09:23 AM


The thing is, those guys aren't better than Franzen.  They work harder than Franzen.  And honestly that, more than whatever his production is trending, is what irks me about his play and why I think he's bad for the team. 


Can you imagine if Tatar had Mule's size?  Because I don't think Tatar necessarily has a better shot or more skill than Franzen.   Just greater will to get the puck and go the net.


I never really buy into the "for his cap hit" excuse for his effort (not that you were making it).  For one, the Wings are starting to be on the losing end of that contract now.  And second, I just think it's bad for team morale and culture when you have a guy with so much talent who's half-assing it out there.  And he absolutely is half-assing it out there some nights.  


Franzen has always been streaky, but you'd still notice him during games.  Taking shots, creating scoring chances, being a jerk to play against.  This season there's been so many games where he was completely invisible out there.


Anyway, I didn't mean this into another bash Franzen fest.  It just struck me after the game last night how it hadn't even occurred to me that he was out of the lineup.  He is not missed, and he should be. 


I'm not arguing any of that.  Those young guys are better than Franzen because of a number of things.  They are, perhaps, no more skilled than him.  But that's not all that goes into a hockey player.  They're skilled AND work hard, so they're better players.  And he's unnecessary. 


Again, I'm not defending the guy.  Or even saying we should keep him.  I'm saying his production hasn't noticeably dropped this year.  There's a slight drop for sure, but I see no reason to attribute that to an overall decline rather than the yearly slumps he goes through like clockwork.  Knowing what we know now, I'd even have been in favor of buying him out a year ago.  But again, that's because of his terribly long contract and the new punishments that go with keeping those around.  Not because he's changed much (or at all) as a player. 


Finally, I agree with you about his work ethic being bad for the team.  For a few years now I've believed this team lacked an identity.  If seems like we're finally seeing a little bit of one emerging. Fast, tenacious, and often explosive offensively.  He certainly doesn't fit in with that.  But that's not a knock on his production, that's just a change on our organizational direction.  Send him to a team like Boston or San Jose and he's flourish. 

#2566655 1/27 GDT : Red Wings 5 at Panthers 4

Posted by kipwinger on 28 January 2015 - 11:25 PM

Hmm...Franzen's definitely not where he always is. He's a -12 for one thing. He's never been a minus player over a whole season. That will be a hard hole to dig out of. And 7 g in 33 gp vs. 16 in 54 or 14 in 41. I don't want to attempt the math, but he is not at his usual pace for goals. We have 34 games left and, if he played the rest (not probable) and kept current pace, he would be at 14 in 67 games. Not good.


It's too bad. He looked really good for the first 10 games. Maybe he's decided to get his quota of bad games in before Christmas and make a push in the second half. Let hope, but it's good that it hasn't effected the team all that much.


Franzen goes through droughts every single year.  He was on a goal scoring drought this year.  I don't see what the difference is?  He had 16 goals and 25 assists last year in 54 games.  He had 7 goals and 15 assists in 33 games this year.  It's that that much of a drop off.  Especially given how hot and cold he runs.  Again, I'm not saying we've got to keep the guy or anything.  He's clearly not necessary for the team's success.  But I think this Franzen has regressed narrative is overblown.  


Also, can we all agree that using plus/minus to make a point you want to, and then lambasting it as a "worthless stat" the rest of the time, is shaky at best.  I've seen you personally talk trash about the plus/minus stat.  So I'm not sure why you're using to make a case now. 

#2566647 1/27 GDT : Red Wings 5 at Panthers 4

Posted by kipwinger on 28 January 2015 - 10:02 PM


Why use his career average?  It's not like he's put up around the same number of points since he entered the league.  His first few seasons are not why he got that contract.  


He's at .67 PPG this season (Nevermind that he's also a -12 and half his points are on the PP).  


The previous four seasons his PPG were .76, .76, .73 and .72.   It's a small sample size, but it is also a significant drop.  It is not made up.


I don't know if he's streakier or not overall but prior to his injury, he had 1 goal in 20 games.  


And it goes beyond points.  You can't quantify his disappearing act by points.  Players often factor in games without showing up on the scoresheet.  There's so many games that go by where you don't even notice Franzen, and that shouldn't happen with someone of his talent.  Guys like Sheahan and Tatar regularly factor into games more than Mule, even when they don't score.


He's scoring at .67 ppg despite a pretty big slump (as you point out).  He's gone through those before.  Nothing about his play this year led me to believe that he wouldn't end with right around 55 pts.  Which is usual for him.  I dont' see some big, qualitative difference in his play.  He was doing what he does every year.  


I agree, lots of people factor into games even when they don't score.  Those guys are better than Franzen.  And it's because of those guys that he's no longer necessary.  But he is what he's always been.  The only difference between then and now is that we no longer rely on him as much.  But quite a lot of people here have said, or implied, that his performance is worse this year than in years past.  I just don't see it.  If Nyquist and Tatar (and Abby to a lesser extent) hadn't emerged into go-to guys, Franzen would have been glued to Zetterberg or Datsyuk's wing like he always is, and his PPG probably wouldn't even have dipped at all.   

#2566639 Larkin or Mantha?

Posted by kipwinger on 28 January 2015 - 09:28 PM

Depends on what you mean by quick fix. 32 year old? Nope. top end guy just entering his prime years wanting out of a losing organization? Hell yes.


Like who?  Just for my own understanding of your position.  I mean, I don't think you're saying that those guys should be traded for a tin of beans.  But what kind of player are you talking about here?  O'Reilly?  Yandle? 

#2566638 1/27 GDT : Red Wings 5 at Panthers 4

Posted by kipwinger on 28 January 2015 - 09:24 PM

Myth 1:  Franzen is less productive now than he has ever been. 


Wrong.  His points per game are right around his career average. 


Myth 2:  Franzen is streakier, and disappears more than in the past.


Wrong.  He's played 33 games.  He's got a point in 18 of them.  14 single point games and 4 multi point games.  Again, right in line with his career trends. 




I don't care if he's on the team or not.  We can clearly win without him, which is reason enough to want him gone.  But can we stop making up crap to make him seem worse than he is?  It's the same old Mule, much to the chagrin (or consternation) of the fans. 

#2566154 LA puts Mike Richards on waivers

Posted by kipwinger on 27 January 2015 - 02:17 PM


Yeah, victim.   :rolleyes:




This perfectly illustrates my point.  No way can Carter handle all four of those intelligent, young ladies.  Two, maybe.  But not four.  Which is why he needs his wingman?  And where is his wingman?  Cooling his heels in Manchester, New Hampshire.  Now Carter is going to have to try and entertain all four of those women by himself.  It's a tragedy. 

#2566147 LA puts Mike Richards on waivers

Posted by kipwinger on 27 January 2015 - 02:00 PM

Slightly off topic, but this is hilarious.


Also, we all need to take a minute and acknowledge the real victim here...Jeff Carter.  What the hell is he going to do without his wingman? 


#2566135 LA puts Mike Richards on waivers

Posted by kipwinger on 27 January 2015 - 12:44 PM

I tell what I would be fine with....sending Jurco back to GR to get better playing minutes, keeping Dan Cleary in the press box, having Pulk be the injury call up and down, putting Franzen on LTIR for the rest of the season and being the team that picks up Mike Richards...maybe this should in the "state your unpopular opinion" thread! :lol:  Seriously, though, I think our team would be better. 


Our team would be better by demoting or reducing the playing time of four wingers, and bringing on another center who's only got 15 points in 47 games?  AND he makes almost 6 million a year until 2019. 


How, exactly, would that make the team better?

#2566001 Give Patrick Hersley a shot?

Posted by kipwinger on 26 January 2015 - 09:18 AM


So you're saying you can't cite any players who left the league and then came back to be successful in it? Only players who bloomed late? Is that what I'm hearing???


Is the question, "name players who have played in North America, gone back to Europe, and then returned to North America to have some success?"


Jori Lehtera?

Jiri Hudler?

Mark Streit?

Leo Komarov?

Brian Rafalski?

Johnny Oduya?

Radim Vrbata?

Anton Babchuk?

Robert Lang?

Mark Giordano?

Jiri Sekac?

#2565713 Franzen on IR

Posted by kipwinger on 23 January 2015 - 02:49 PM

I think it's splitting hairs by whether you call it a mental health issue or an "emotional issue"  But if a guy says that thoughts of trying NOT scoring a goal have crossed through his mind while playing, it's something that can't be totally ignored.  I'm definitely not a Franzen basher, but at times, he has literally looked like a guy who is afraid to be out there.  I don't think it's any more of a character assassination than it is to speculate about a player with a history of a physical injury who has been struggling on the ice might be having a recurrence of the injury.


There are all sorts of mental health issues, only some of which deal with emotions.  That's the difference.  So no, it's not splitting hairs. 


Otherwise, I agree that it's perfectly reasonable to wonder why a guy's having a down year IF he is indeed having one.  However, in this case I think his character is being assassinated based on two things...A) We already know why he's out of the lineup.  He's got a neck injury (whiplash) which has been diagnosed.  B)  He's not having a down year.  22 pts. in 33 games puts him on pretty much the exact same scoring pace as he's produced at for the whole of his career.  There's nothing to suggest that his game is suffering, and if it were, there's nothing to suggest it's anything other than the injury sustained during the hit to the head. 


He's injured.  He's not a malingerer, and if he has had (most aren't permanent) mental health issues, there's no reason to believe they're what's keeping him out of the lineup or causing a down year (which he isn't). 

#2565702 Franzen on IR

Posted by kipwinger on 23 January 2015 - 12:45 PM

What about equating his acknowledgment of his love for having his backside caned by an English man in a top hat with emotional issues?


Who doesn't love that?

#2565687 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by kipwinger on 23 January 2015 - 12:06 PM

Unlikely. If we did, would they impress? My guess is that Marchenko is more "NHL ready" than Sproul at this point.

Maybe some of the bigger GR fans here can correct me, but I believe Sproul has had a fairly inconsistent season. I think I read something about his defensive partners being swapped around a bit. Have Paetsch-Jensen and Evans-Sproul been the pairings lately?


I wouldn't say he's been inconsistent.  His production hasn't great to begin the season, but once Ouellet came to the big club, Sproul became the primary puck mover in GR and his production increased.  Can't speak to his defense, but I can say he's really picked in up offensively after having almost no points in the first quarter of the season. 

#2565680 crazy hockey dad

Posted by kipwinger on 23 January 2015 - 11:43 AM

I think I'd give him the choice of either paying for the glass, or wearing a t-shirt that said "I'm a stupid douchebag" for an entire week.  Either one would be fine.