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Member Since 31 May 2011
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#2386909 nhl.com calls Kenny the best GM

Posted by kipwinger on 20 April 2013 - 04:50 PM

I said they can't score goals. By that I mean they both seem to be around 20-25g. And you're kind of proving my point. They're not good enough to turn average players into stars. Nothing really wrong with that; few players ever have been. I point it out because it makes it that much tougher to build a team. If we need four 30g wingers, we're probably out of luck. Couldn't afford it in free agency, even if there were 4 available. Nor do we have the trade assets, even if we completely empty the cupboards (which would leave no cheap depth to fill the rest of the roster anyway).


We need to be able to score, even if our top-6 has a couple of guys that can only pot 15-20. Cleary and Abby have 9g apiece. Franzen has 10, Brunner 11, Flip 7...Tatar, Nyquist, and Bert combined have 9 in what has essentially been the same roster spot. That's pretty good scoring depth. That's 7 players with 9 or more, plus 1 with 7.


For comparison, the Blackhawks also have 7 players with 9 and one with 7. In fact, looking at the entire forward corps of both teams, taking out Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen for the Wings, and Kane, Toews, and Hossa for the Hawks... our forwards have scored just one fewer goal. Paid similar money too; we're a little under a million more. Injuries close to balanced. Bolland and Flip roughly equal out. We've had more injuries, but they've had Sharp out for a while. Our replacements have done better. It's a very minor difference. Add in Franzen and Hossa (both have missed 7 games) and the difference is 8 goals, and now the Hawks spending slightly more.


Pav and Hank have 22. Kane and Toews have 42.


It's reasonable to think we could upgrade one of the others enough to offset the 8g difference there. Not so much the other 20g at the top. We need that depth scoring. Need guys like Cleary, Abby, Bert and Sammy who can fill a role on a top line at a fairly cheap price. We can afford one upgrade, and maybe make one other swap for someone of a similar level but who fits better. No guarantees that we can find either, and no guarantees it would be enough, so we don't want to spend to much (in cap commitment or trade) to try for it.


Doens't it seem likely that the reason that Toews and Kane have so many goals is precisely because they've got serious depth across the lineup though?  You can't really double team either of those guys when they're on the ice because Hossa and Sharp can beat you on their own if you don't take them seriously.  I think both Pav and Hank's numbers are low because teams have figured out that the Wings can't beat you when Pav or Hank are kept off the board.  You can't do that with Chicago. By having real depth in their forward core it opens up the ice for the stars as well. 

#2386789 Putting Hank's goal scoring problems into perspective.

Posted by kipwinger on 19 April 2013 - 04:08 PM

I don't think they're passengers.


they're flat out just not good enough.


I agree that a lot of them are not good enough, but I think they're misutilized as well.  For instance, Datsyuk needs the puck on his stick to be effective but he doesn't like to shoot, Brunner doesn't carry the puck much and does like to shoot.  So put them together.  Similarly, Zetterberg is defensively responsible and has shown that he can score a lot.  Filppula is defensively responsible, and despite every opportunity, has shown he can't score.  So why not let Flip center the second line (and take the lion's share of the defensive responsibility) and let Zetterberg play the wing where he can score.  The defense is still in capable hands as Flip excels in that area, but at least you'll have someone on the wing that can score.  Ideally, for the remainder of the season I'd like to see this.







When Bert gets back swap him with Abby and put Abby where Emmerton is.  When Sammy gets back he rotates in and out with Cleary.  Also, if we make the playoffs I'd strongly consider scratching both Cleary and Sammy and putting Tatar with Nyquist and Andersson as they've obviously got a lot of chemistry and have worked well together

#2386787 Putting Hank's goal scoring problems into perspective.

Posted by kipwinger on 19 April 2013 - 03:56 PM

I've been to some of these game and I've had the opportunity to sit up close (thanks to company tickets my father gets every year), let me tell you guys something. These guys get beat up day in an day out. I've watched Hank get his butt checked by guys almost twice as big as him from a few seats away. I'll tell you one thing though, he protects the puck with one hand very well, something even Datsyuk doesn't do as well. However Datsyuk has been fun to watch with his crazy deking ability that makes some of the D fall on their butts. Anyways the point im trying to make is, these guys are simply beat up. Half the time on ice that I've watch Zetterberg, he seems exhausted 30 seconds into his shift but just keeps on going. My buddy sitting next to me at the Chicago game at home said something like "Zetterberg plays like he's ran 30 miles before the game" Seriously, though up close the man looks exhausted this season.


These two men (zet and dats) have an incredible amount of pressure on them. Datsyuk is clearly in better shape and so he has a bit more stamina than Z but even he doesn't seem anywhere close to the speed he used to have a few years ago. Say what you guys must, but I've been analyzing these two all season long and have had the opportunity to do so from a few seats away. 


Of course they look worn out, they're carrying the team on their shoulders, and everybody knows it.  Our team is a one trick pony and everybody has figured that out. 

#2386786 Tatar frustrated; says he will only play in NHL when contract done

Posted by kipwinger on 19 April 2013 - 03:53 PM


My prediction: only one of Tartar and Nyquist will become permanent Red Wings. The other will be dealt.


I agree.  But I don't think it will make too much of a difference because at least in the short to medium term all of our prospects are undersize, pass first, perimeter guys, and most of them are centers or converted centers.  I can't wait for a couple of years when we've got actual wingers with a little size (like Jurco, Frk, and Tvrdon) ready to be inserted into the lineup.

#2386780 Tatar frustrated; says he will only play in NHL when contract done

Posted by kipwinger on 19 April 2013 - 03:32 PM

I don't think size is the issue up front, I think that (to borrow from another thread) the top 6 lack "offensive creativity". I understand what Babcock's tried to do with Abdelkader (puck recovery... ala Saad in Chicago), but it just doesn't seem to be working out. I think we kind of have to wait and see what happens here, but Tatar should at least be on that 3rd line LW when next year starts. Depending on what happens will Filppula and Brunner, we'll have to see.


It's not just size, it's size and skill combined.  Abby's got all the size you'd ever need but he doesn't know how to finish.  Holmer could finish, Ryan Smyth can finish...Abby can't.  He's got no knack for scoring at this level.  What we need is a couple bigger bodies who know how to finish on a play.  Guys like Horton, Stafford, Clarkson, Paajarvi, come to mind.  They've got the size and skill to score down low, which is something we're sorely missing.  Ideally I'd like a sniper too, and I think it would help with a lot of things, but until we get a legit net front presence on each of the top two lines I think we'll be kept entirely to the perimeter and therefore easily kept off the scoreboard in tight games. 

#2386748 Putting Hank's goal scoring problems into perspective.

Posted by kipwinger on 19 April 2013 - 01:11 PM

Here's some perspective.  Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the biggest offensive threats we have.  You know it, I know it, and every team we play knows it.  When they're separated they get double teamed, and when they're together no other line has any potential offense.  We simply don't have the horses.  That's why they don't score...because everyone and their brother knows to key on those guys to the exclusion of everyone else. 

#2386513 EDGE

Posted by kipwinger on 18 April 2013 - 03:31 PM

Ideally I'd like guys that are edgy, but at the same time know how to contribute.  I don't think bringing in any more Tootoo type guys is going to do anything.  But look at Columbus, they're a team full of scrappy, edgy guys, who still find a way to produce at the NHL level.  Not that I necessarily think that Columbus is some sort of organizational model or anything, but simple that a couple Foligno, Dubinsky, Umberger style players would be helpful. 


Note to all the argumentative types out there: I am not saying I want to be Columbus nor am I saying that the three guys I mentioned are available, or should be on our radar.  I'm just saying a couple guys with their skill set would probably help us out. 

#2386480 Tatar frustrated; says he will only play in NHL when contract done

Posted by kipwinger on 18 April 2013 - 02:02 PM

I think a guy like Sheahan could go a long way if he develops into a top 6 guy. However, I don't think our toughness has to come just from the top 6 guys in the forward group. Dmen can also contribute to toughness and size and are on the ice at the same time as your top 6. 3/4th lines also can grind when they are out there. Not every team has a Lucic/Perry for their top 6 that can do it all. Montreal has gotten along nicely with a group of small players this year. 


Edit: Size and gritty dont usually translate to top 6 player all that often. These guys are usually special and are highly regarded by their team. Anthony Stewart isn't a top 6 player. Franzen has potential to be that guy and maybe thats what holland was banking on when he signed him. 


I like Sheahan fine, but he's another center.  I'm sick of watching this team move centers to the wing and then complain that they don't shoot/score enough.  I want actual wingers with some size, who can put the puck in the net.  They don't have to score 40 goals a season.  But if they could score 20-25 and do it from the crease/slot area then it would open up the ice for everyone else.  Ideally they'd play well on the boards and hang onto the puck as well. 

#2386475 4/17 GDT: Red Wings 2 @ Flames 3

Posted by kipwinger on 18 April 2013 - 01:49 PM

Def:  "INSANITY"- Doing the same things over and over and expecting different results.


This team, this coach and this general manager can give lessons on how to fulfill this definition.  But mostly, it's on Babcock and Holland.   Until there's some real wave-making; some reality checks; some courageous, gutsy decisions about who plays and who doesn't play because of lack of effort, this definition will hold for the Detroit Red Wings.  


In their last game against Columbus, San Jose benched Joe Thornton for the entire third period because he was playing like garbage.  Joe Thornton.  I can't even imagine what it would be like to see our team bench anything for playing like s***.  And obviously I don't mean Eaves, Kindl, Smith, Tootoo etc. etc. etc.  Pretty easy to scapegoat those guys and bench them, takes a little more guts to do it with your high end talent. 

#2386474 Tatar frustrated; says he will only play in NHL when contract done

Posted by kipwinger on 18 April 2013 - 01:44 PM

Here's what I don't understand.  Even if we cut all the fat from the forward corps.  Let Cleary walk, buy out Bert or Sammy or both, and replace them will all the GR guys who deserve to come up, we're still one of the smallest and softest teams ever to be assembled.  You can't have a top six of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Tatar, Brunner, Nyquist, Jarnkrok.  They'll get forced to the outside, and wither away playing a perimeter game.  So it's pretty obvious that at some point some of these guys are going to have to be moved out and replaced with gritty guys with size right?

#2386441 4/17 GDT: Red Wings 2 @ Flames 3

Posted by kipwinger on 18 April 2013 - 12:17 PM

We cannot score. When will people understand this. 12 Dekeysers and 4 Howards on the ice, and we still CANNOT SCORE. Either we add 2 snipers in the off season and dump our garbage (white, Colo, Bert, Sammy, filppula, cleary) or we watch low scoring one goal losses for a while. Its not rocket science.


I don't know what you're talking about man.  Babs just said that Abby is a 20 goal guy IF this were a full season.  And obviously we'd score loads of goals IF Franzen brought it every night and IF Sammy and Bert weren't hurt, and IF Filppula would shoot more. 


Doncha see?  We're not a low scoring team, we're a dynamic powerhouse offense who has somehow earned the wrath of the gods through no fault of our own.  Probably by being so bad*ss for so long, if I had to guess.


Long story short, no need for scorers, we've just got to "compete harder" and "want it" more than the other guys.  WE'VE GOT SPIRIT YES WE DO, WE'VE GOT SPIRIT HOW BOUT YOU?!?!

#2386273 4/17 GDT: Red Wings 2 @ Flames 3

Posted by kipwinger on 18 April 2013 - 12:11 AM


yes... like i said, we need more goals, we can't win if we can't score. Saying the team didn't play well however is incorrect, Calgary had no business winning tonight,


I disagree.  It was sort of like, who's the smartest dumb kid.  They couldn't score and didn't really play much defense.  We couldn't score, didn't play much defense, AND actively gave them goals.  We were clearly the worse team because we scored their goals for them, those weren't lucky bounces, they were miscommunications and screwups.  Neither team was good, but we were probably the less...um...gooder?


Edit:  We gave them two goals by screwing up, they gave us one goal by being Canadian and therefore forsaken by God.

#2386242 4/17 GDT: Red Wings 2 @ Flames 3

Posted by kipwinger on 17 April 2013 - 11:50 PM

Just finished watching Columbus.  Late in the game, playoffs on the line, playing the second best team in the Western Conference and they were all over Anaheim in the third period.  Watching it, you just knew they were going to score. 


Compare that to us.  Late in the game, playoffs on the line, playing the second worst team in the Western Conference and we were nowhere to be found.  Watching it, you just knew we were f***ed. 



#2386071 4/17 GDT: Red Wings 2 @ Flames 3

Posted by kipwinger on 17 April 2013 - 10:57 PM

"Some guys score goals and some guys don't.  We've got a lot that don't" - Mike Babcock.

#2385840 4/17 GDT: Red Wings 2 @ Flames 3

Posted by kipwinger on 17 April 2013 - 09:23 PM

eeesh, Brendan needs to take his own advice and keep it simple during his interviews.  Never thought I'd long for the days when Yzerman would say absolutely nothing at all during his intermission chats.