Actually, that was in '09. In '08, Flip and Sammy were on the 2nd line with Franzen. Huds was on the 4th with Helm. Our third line was Cleary-Draper-Drake.
And what is embarassing is this fanbase's inability to handle adversity.
So, to hopefully avoid getting worse in the future we should be worse now? Getting worse would in fact help us bring in talent, via better draft position. We're not going to get worse and keep drafting in the middle.
You don't build a team via trades or UFAs. Or at least, opportunities to do so are few and far between. You need a foundation to build on, and you use trades and UFAs to tweak from there. It's likely we won't find that foundation until after Pav and Hank can't carry us anymore. And yeah, we'd likely be a pretty bad team in that event. Not sure why that's so much worse than being a bad team now...
But if we give up now, try to stock up on draft picks, it doesn't guarantee anything. At best, you maybe accelerate the rebuild by a year. But you lose the chance at maybe getting lucky again. Maybe someone in the system does break out and become our next star, or maybe we'll find some gem in the 20s, or maybe we'll see a bunch of our prospects all become pretty good and be like Boston with a ton of good players but no real stars. Maybe we will find a trade or UFA that can be a key piece. Maybe start rising back to the top without having to hit bottom or even lose the playoff streak.
If not, we're not really any worse off than we would be by blowing up the team. To me, the chance of something special (however small) is worth a few years of mediocrity. Some people seem to think that if we don't fix everything now, we won't ever be able to. But the reality is that not fixing anything is a pretty good way to get the resources to fix everything. Breaking whatever you do have can work as well, but not so much better to be worth it, in my opinion.
You're definitely right on the first part, I had that lineup wrong. Thanks for the correction.
As for the rest, I'm not necessarily sure that I need you to pontificate about handling adversity. I don't think a losing sports team is any "adversity" at all. It's a sport. I do, however, watch sports to see the team win championships, if I wanted to see a team compete moderately successfully just for the sake of participation, I'd go watch High School sports. We're talking about a professional sports team I pay good money to see win, there are no participation trophies. And when I see that team get further and further away from that goal with every passing season I begin to formulate theories to explain why. Furthermore, when the same things are (or in this case aren't) being done to address the problem year after year, it becomes pretty obvious what a big part of the problem is.
Injuries are a form of adversity. Squandering talent and watching your team get less and less competitive is mismanagement. One I can deal with, the other irritates me.
He just said it today on a local Vancouver radio station he normally appears on. I grabbed it via HFB and thought it would be an interesting conversation piece for over here. If he can't release the terms of the proposal, all of this will most likely hold no substance. It would be really interesting to know what was the deal between CGY and DET.
Media reports that we didn't want to give up our 1st, but McGuire is saying our's blew theirs out of the water. Hmm... I wonder if we didn't include a pick but rather more prospects and a bigger deal of players. Calgary could've shot that down because they wanted the pick?
It is an interesting topic, but really what's the better offer is in the eye of the beholder. Hypothetically, we could have offered Nyquist AND Tatar but considering Calgary wanted/needed a goalie prospect (because of this Kipper debacle) they might have placed little or no value on two prospects who are nonetheless very good players. For instance, which is the better offer...Nyquist and Ferraro or Sproul and a 2nd? Depends on the needs of the team in question.
that's 6 regulars out 18 regular skaters - fully 1/3 of the team.
Veteran guys that they brought in to help
2 of the 3 have missed almost the entire season.
Rookies that are filling in:
Kindl (partial season experience)
Based on this, just to make the playoffs have been a struggle.
I am glad we didn't mortgage our future. One or two more expensive free agents were not going to replace the 1/3 of the team that we lost.
If the only two options you've got to fix a team that got massacred in the first round of the playoffs last year are a few aging vets who weren't all that good to begin with (Sammy, Colaiacovo, Tootoo) OR a bunch of kids with no real NHL experience, then I'd say you've f***ed up.
Management keeps "doing all it can" to improve this team and that's the best it's got. Rookies or plugs? What the hell?
Remember when we won the cup in 2008. Our third line was Hudler, Filppula, and Sammy. Back then Sammy was only a third line player making 1.2 million per season. Now at 36 years old he's a top sixer worth 3. In what universe? Similarly, back then young guys like Hudler and Filppula were expected to step into supplementary roles until they rounded out their game. Now, we need Nyquist or Tatar to be top sixers or else we have to use Cleary or Abby? Yes we miss Helm and Bert, but only one of those guys is a top six forward. The rest of the top two units are intact and they still can't buy a goal. Does Bert make that big of a difference, or where we expecting Helm to be an offensive dynamo this season?
Mismanagement dudes. Plain and simple.
"What is gained by making the playoff and embarrassingly being booted in the first round?" you ask.
Answer: Not being embarrassed by being booted BEFORE the playoffs begin.
I can't believe people actually think it's more embarrassing to make the playoffs and lose than to MISS the playoffs. Crazy!
Who cares about embarrassing? Since Holland is FINALLY suggesting that we're in a rebuild (only after missing out on Jagr I might add) we might as well think about the long term. And in the long term missing the playoffs and getting the higher pick is probably better than making it, losing early, and getting the 20th overall or whatever it would be. They don't play for bragging rights, they play to win the cup, and even if me make the playoffs we're likely not winning anything.
Also, the fact that we're having this discussion is embarrassing no matter what happens with the playoffs.
Umm, 2011 7th in the league, 2010 2nd in the league?
This is true, but the guys responsible for that production have moved on, retired, or are declining in production. We haven't developed a quality winger since Franzen. Haven't developed a top defenseman since Kronwall. Four of our current top sixers are centers, two of whom are playing out of position and were never scorers to begin with.
We don't have the right people for the job, simple as that. Want a scoring winger? Draft and develop one, or trade for one. Don't try to make Flip or Abby something they aren't. It takes world class talent to be able to switch around like that. Hell even Ovechkin had a serious slump when he moved from left to right wing...and that'sf****** Ovechkin (who scored twice more last night, officially proving everyone who said "he's been figured out", completely wrong). You can't just move these guys around willy nilly and expect a miracle. Well you can, but we've seen how that turns out.
You walked in right in the middle of something you didn't see play out. I assume that's why you're acting so exasperated, or condescending, or whatever this is. The guy I was responding to took me out of context as well, I assume in an effort to be argumentative. Initially, I said that because an eighth seed won the Cup last year doesn't mean that if you "make the playoffs, anything can happen". It happened once...ever. So it really can't. Then that guy hit me with a bunch of stats about how low ranking teams make it to the Conference Finals all the time. Which is true...but in no way does that mean that "anything can happen". Those teams don't win the cup, so again, it can't.
I don't know whether you agree with that or not, but I figured I'd clarify because it's obvious from you "sigh" that you're real butt hurt about something.
The seeds that have made the conference finals since 2002:
2002: 1,2 3,4
2003: 6,7 1,2
2004: 2,6 1,3
2006: 6,8 2,4
2007: 1,2 1,4
2008: 1,5 2,6
2009: 2,4 4,6
2010: 1,2 7,8
2011: 1,2 3,5
2012: 3,8 1,6
A team that was seeded 5th or lower has made the conference finals 5 years in a row and 8 of the last 10 years so yes anything is possible. And it's even more true now considering no team is unbeatable and parity is in full force
I didn't realize they started giving out the Stanley Cup for teams making it to the Conference Finals. Is that the goal now, Conference Finals?
I find it laughable that Holland did nothing at the deadline except say that getting Bert and Helm back is better than anything he could have done. That's something to look forward to right? Get a couple guys back so that we'll finally return to last season's form...e.g. a lineup that got SPANKED in the first round by Nashville. Awesome.
Thank god we've got Smith and Nyquist. No need to do anything. They're the future.
I still think we will make the playoffs by the skin of our teeth, but Kenny has really got to get us a scoring winger and a bonifide #1 D
for next season. Plenty of effort tonight but we just dropped a place in the standings and teams around us have games in hand. We
need a least 5 wins from our remaining games to make the post season.
He made some phone calls and was totally blown away when he found out that you can't get a scoring winger or top defenseman if you're completely unwilling to move a first round pick or any of your top prospects. Who knew you couldn't get Jason Pominville for Landon Ferraro and a conditional 4th rounder?
Maybe call what should be called? I don't ever say a word about officiating, but I have to reply to this. How do you not call a too many men, when even Eddie of all people saw it and called it out? That, called correctly, could have potentially changed the current score (the goal happened shortly after our PP ended, we could have still had a 1-man advantage at that time). But regardless, the players are still responsible for the goal, call or not, so that isn't an excuse. Just saying, just because there has only been 3 penalties called, doesn't mean that they've done a good job. It's the quality of what gets called and doesn't get called that determines whether this guy is doing his job well or not.
Refs miss "too many men" calls all the time. I don't hear anyone complaining when we get away with one. And this season, bad line changes has been something of an art for the Red Wings.
I cannot believe we're talking about the Detroit Red Wings and our options for how to not suck involve moving Smith to forward and Franzen to center, Flip to wing, and Abby to whatever, etc. etc. etc.
I"m as bummed about this team as I've been in a long time. It'sf****** obvious that we simply don't have enough competitive hockey players on a nightly basis, yet rather than get any (for three years in a row) we'd rather retread old guys, move guys away from their natural positions, and call up the youngsters (all at one, and for only a few games at a time).
Oh I forgot...and then we wait, and hope, and pray, that our saving grace will come back to us. "Darren Helm is our deadline acquisition". Right. Can't wait for that offensive dynamo to kickstart this team.