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Member Since 31 May 2011
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#2574327 Zetterberg leaves after 2nd Period; "upper body injury"

Posted by kipwinger on 24 February 2015 - 10:12 AM

I agree that fighting is harmful in that it can leave a player with long-term issues related to concussions, brain trauma, etc. If that's your only argument, fine.

But to say a genuine fight doesn't impact a hockey game is silly. That's like saying a big hit or shot block doesn't affect the momentum of a game either. Or the crowd even. There are too many variables and differing scenarios that a scientific study won't be able to capture this.

Also, chemistry and camaraderie are vital to any hockey club. Sticking up for your linemate after a dirty hit is part of being a good teammate. You don't want think stuff like that brings a team closer together?


The research shows that after a fight there IS an offensive surge.  For one, or both teams, and not necessarily for the team that starts, or wins, the fight.  Both teams get amped up.  I never said guys didn't get amped up after fights.  Sure they do.  But it doesn't reliably make your team play any better, AND it might actually make the other guys play better.  


Secondly, I certainly agree that chemistry and comraderie are important.  But there are tons of ways to develop chemistry and comraderie.  The Wings are always near the bottom of the league in fights, but don't seem to noticeably suffer from a lack of team cohesion, while a team like Edmonton (which fights much more often) does.  Given how many other methods there are to accomplish team unity, and given that fighting doesn't seem vital to achieving it, I'm going to err on the side of caution and suggest we dispense with the method that kills people's brains slowly. 

#2573965 Zetterberg leaves after 2nd Period; "upper body injury"

Posted by kipwinger on 23 February 2015 - 11:03 PM

I'm just happy that at least two people on LGW don't completely hate me.  Look who's burning bridges now, Grandma...ya jerk!

#2573890 Zetterberg leaves after 2nd Period; "upper body injury"

Posted by kipwinger on 23 February 2015 - 10:01 PM


Fighting doesn't have any impact on the sport? March 26, 1997 called to disagree.


"This is a game that brought the Red Wings together," said Vernon, who picked up his 300th career win. "Whether it was the first-period fighting or the overtime goal, a game like this only helps give you confidence to go into the playoffs. When you go to the playoffs, everybody has to be ready to do the job and stay together. Tonight showed the guys were willing to pay the price."



"Certainly, I think that was the turning point as far as the Red Wings' success went. Up until that point, the Red Wings were close, but never tasted victory, and by that I mean Stanley Cup victory."



"After postseason heartbreaks in 1994, '95 and '96, the Red Wings finally developed a swagger on March 26, 1997, one that would carry them to three championships in six seasons."



Well as interesting as a bunch of anecdotal evidence is, actual scientific research suggests that fighting has no positive effect on the outcome of the game.  The ol' eyeball test is good for finding a date on a Friday night, but if you want to find the truth about real world phenomena...you have to use science.  Bummer. 




"We can see in all four of these data sets that there is no evidence that winning a fight leads to better results in the immediate aftermath of the fight. In fact, it appears that the team winning the fight will score slightly less goals in the game than they did previously. In all four groups, the percentage of goals scored by the winning team is within 1.96 standard deviations of the percentage of its total goals scored, indicating that the results are negligible. Thus, we cannot reject the null hypothesis that winning a fight has no impact on a team’s momentum and goal differential."





So, I guess, our overall conclusion from this study isn't completely certain. We wind up with a summary like:

1. The effect doesn't seem to exist for run-of-the-mill fights.
2. When a goon fighter on a goon team fights when his team is down, it seems to benefit that team by 1/8 of a goal, or a bit less than a normal power play.
3. But, that effect isn't statistically significant, so we have some doubts that it's real.
4. And, with only 364 such datapoints qualifying out of around 5,000, only a small percentage of fights match the criterion for that kind of boost.

If you had to reduce that to one line, it might be: At best, there might be a small effect in certain specific circumstances ... but much, much less than sportscasters make it out to be.

#2573803 Zetterberg leaves after 2nd Period; "upper body injury"

Posted by kipwinger on 23 February 2015 - 03:38 PM

Yes I think that sums up thoughts. I know it will never get to zero. Also I do not believe that if cheapshots are drastically reduced I do not think fighting would disappear.

As I said in my edit after you quoted me I think we disagree over the amount of supplemental discipline and the acceptable level of cheapshots we can legislate to in our game. I have a higher tolerance for them than you do. As I said the level the league is at right now is fine with me and you want a further reduction


I think that cheapshots can, and should, be reduced to levels consistent with other contact sports.  I also don't think this is unreasonable or unrealistic.  If a guy gets a concussion by hitting his head on the boards, or ice, after a LEGAL check...it's unavoidable.  If a guy gets hit in the head by an opposing players elbow, because the league does not seriously discipline that kind of recklessness...it's a problem. 

#2573742 Zetterberg leaves after 2nd Period; "upper body injury"

Posted by kipwinger on 23 February 2015 - 01:00 PM

I do not believe this has happened in any other sport with success. You still have guys blasting qbs and wrs. Still have people stomping on guys. Also mind you this is hardly an easy thing to make happen the nhlpa would certainly be against it. I do not believe that fines can be made substantial enough for there to be a noticeable decrease in dirty hits.

I like fighting because I like to see people stand up for themselves.


This is exactly the problem with this debate.  The fighting people ways respond with "well fines won't get rid of cheap shots 100%".  Of course they won't.  But it'll work better than enforcers have.  Every single contact sport has fewer malicious hits and cheapshots than the NHL has because they have stiffer fines. 


Don't believe me?  What was the big dirty hit epidemic the NFL used to have?  Spearing.  You almost never see it in NFL games anymore.  Why?  What got rid of it?  Definitely not a bunch of goons beating the s*** out of each other.  It was fines.  BIG fines. 


You guys act like if another method of punishment won't completely eradicate dirty hits, that it's not worth doing.  That's false logic.  The fact that it's not a PERFECT deterrent doesn't mean it's not a BETTER deterrent. 

#2573723 Getzlaf calls Ovechkin a diver, O says "I have hair"

Posted by kipwinger on 23 February 2015 - 11:25 AM

Didn't Micheal Douglas come out and say that going down on chicks gave him mouth cancer?


Get the wheelz back on the bus!

#2573701 Zetterberg leaves after 2nd Period; "upper body injury"

Posted by kipwinger on 23 February 2015 - 09:59 AM


Are you trying to join Crymson on hfboards or something?  


If I get banned for arguing this point, the moderators of this forum should be ashamed.  I'm arguing with two guys who have consistently used homophobia as a way of defending a point of view that is hardly defensible in the first place.  I don't know how else to describe that type of thinking other than to say it's stupid, insensible, archaic, and disgusting.  I guess maybe I'd call it "fundamentally sickening and inhuman".  That's pretty accurate. 


Nevertheless, I actually appreciate (even though I don't agree) your view on fighting.  Because at least the logical basis for it rest on nostalgia, and not the denigration of other groups of people. 

#2573700 Do Maple Leaf fans deserve better?

Posted by kipwinger on 23 February 2015 - 09:53 AM

 People get offended over anything in todays ultra 'pc' society we live in.


That said - wonder Rielly will be on the trading block.


I don't think anybody's calling for Reilly's head.  It's pretty much universally acknowledged that he's a young kid who made a mistake and said something stupid that you shouldn't say anymore.  I thought, however, that it was also universally acknowledged that you shouldn't use large groups of people (women, homosexuals, black people, Irish, etc.) as a pejorative.  And that when you do, people will be offended.  Not "easily" offended, mind you.  But justifiably offended. 


I mean, that's reasonable right?  To expect that your gender, skin color, religious preferences, etc. won't be consistently used as an insult by people in public. 

#2573675 Zetterberg leaves after 2nd Period; "upper body injury"

Posted by kipwinger on 23 February 2015 - 01:57 AM

 I believe the NFL has a much larger issue at hand with brain trauma/debilitating injuries/prescription med abuse/domestic abuse than the NHL.


The HBO special on the Chicago Bears 1985 Super Bowl team is the tip of the iceberg.


I don't feel qualified to say whether one sport is worse than the other with regards to causing brain injuries.  They both demonstrably have a serious issue with it.   I do, however, feel that ANY sports league should absolutely prioritize the health and safety of their players.  One easy way to do that, in hockey, is to take unnecessary (and avoidable) hits to the head out of the game.  And one very easy way to do that is to remove fighting by removing the "so called" need for it...increase penalties for serious infractions to the point where players err on the side of caution. 


Caution.  The operable word.  Heaven forbid human beings in the 21st Century learn how to enjoy sports where players must be cautious of one another. 

#2573672 Zetterberg leaves after 2nd Period; "upper body injury"

Posted by kipwinger on 23 February 2015 - 01:35 AM

Next time we should all throw flowers on the ice with love letters to Benn..Then KP and the likes would be happy.


Not as happy as this post just made me.  Because if you, and this drivel, are the opposition then I know I'm going to win.  I know that eventually my point of view will carry the day because the people arguing against me say things like this ^^^^^^^. 


If I had my way, you'd be the face of the pro-fighting crowd.  I'd put you on TV and let you write opinion pieces on TSN.  Then I'd follow your silly arguments with the brain trauma experts, and the analytics guys, and the former players with behavior issues, and the coaches who don't use enforcers. 


I'd let you say exactly what you (and Frank) always say, and then I'd let the sensible people say what they've got to say, and all the undecided people would laugh at how silly you sound.  How crazy your position is.  And you'd lose.  Because you're on the wrong side of history and your position isn't clever enough to overcome that deficiency. 


So keep saying what you say.  I mean it.  Keep trying to convince people with crap like this. 


And I'll win and you'll lose in no time at all.   

#2573664 Zetterberg leaves after 2nd Period; "upper body injury"

Posted by kipwinger on 23 February 2015 - 12:17 AM


But he can't hit or fight and he doesn't play hockey well enough to play on a higher line.  McGrattan does his role better than Andersson does his (whatever Andersson's role is)  

And while we're on this topic, I don't see anything wrong with Ericsson fighting.  Yeah, he can get hurt, but there are better D-men than him who occasionally drop the gloves.  He did the right thing stepping in.  I wish more of our players would do that. 


I don't want to say anything about fighting, because it seems like you guys have got that covered.  However, I do want to explain what Andersson's role it.  Andersson's role is to be good enough defensively, that he (and the two other fourth line guys who are also good defensively) can be matched up against higher opposing lines, so that our scoring lines can take advantage of the mismatch.  Which is exactly how Babs uses Andersson (and t he fourth line in general).  Traditionally people though of the fourth line as an energy line.  Our fourth line is a match up line.  And so Andersson's job is to be good enough, defensively, to play on a higher line (to use your phrase). 


My 2 Cents. 

#2573629 Zetterberg leaves after 2nd Period; "upper body injury"

Posted by kipwinger on 22 February 2015 - 08:21 PM

I'm not sure why we're having this debate again.  History has shown that being evermore violent in response to things we don't like ALWAYS works out well.  Absolutely tons and tons of examples when punching people has effectively helped folks achieve their objectives.  That has got to be the most idiotic thing a person can think. 


By comparison it makes GMRwings' "I like fighting because it's entertaining" argument both honest, and sensible. 


Can all the fighting people just use that argument?  That way we don't have to keep restating how intellectually bankrupt this "fighting deters rats" argument is.


I'll even help.  "For as long as I can remember, I (state your name here), have enjoyed fighting in hockey.  I find it entertaining and exciting.  As such, I am willing to tolerate the short and long term health risks that come along with it and believe players who engage in the sport should too."


At least then your position won't be so demonstrably invalided and your justifications so blatantly post hoc.

#2573614 Do Maple Leaf fans deserve better?

Posted by kipwinger on 22 February 2015 - 07:45 PM

@TheHockeyNews: THN's @Proteautype writes on Morgan Riellys mistake, casual misogyny and the empty idea of The Outrage Police: http://t.co/pvjiyGQNU7


"The notion of The Outrage Police is as hollow and disingenuous as it gets – and most importantly, it doesn’t make what Rielly said right. To repeat: he’s 20 years old and not a monster, but he said something you can’t say anymore, people let him know, and he said he was sorry. That’s the way the process is supposed to work. And the people who want to distract from that basic fact by focusing on anything other than the women who are telling us what he said was wrong are polar bears on an ever-shrinking rhetorical ice floe, letting out embarrassing death rattles as they fail to adjust to a world that’s rolling right over their prized prejudices.


Clearly, some men don’t like being confronted by voices other than those of their ever-forgiving frat boy buddies. Too bad. Whether they like it or not, this issue is another example of two tectonic cultural plates pushing against one another – and, as is always the case, the progressive, fair-minded plate is eventually going to push the ignorant, divisive plate deeper into the earth, precisely where it belongs."


Absolutely right.

#2573599 Zetterberg leaves after 2nd Period; "upper body injury"

Posted by kipwinger on 22 February 2015 - 06:25 PM

This is the dumbest debate I've ever seen. If punching people deterred anything then Benn wouldn't have hit Z as he'd already been beaten soundly by Ericsson. Soooo stupid.

#2572875 Do Maple Leaf fans deserve better?

Posted by kipwinger on 21 February 2015 - 03:35 PM

I'm not sure there really needs to be a debate about it.  You shouldn't belittle people, ever, if you can help it.  I'm sure Morgan Reilly isn't a total dick.  He just said a total dick thing.  


Secondly, we (as a part of the hockey community) absolutely SHOULD do our best to enforce social, cultural, and behavioral norms.  It's called civic responsibility.  I want my children, friends, family, and neighbors to be able to share in the sport I love...because I love it.  And none of them, ever, should feel excluded because of who they are or what they choose to do. 


However, I can't say that I'm surprised that Frank feels the way he does.  This is a guy who once said that people who don't like fighting in hockey are "homosexuals".  And regularly references "sissy hockey". 


Fortunately people like Frank here are in the minority.  Positivity, inclusion, and openness are winning.  And people like him are losing.  And one of these days everybody with that point of view will either be forced to come around, or else be exposed for the narrow minded, hateful, ethically bankrupt dinosaurs that they are.