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Ally

Member Since 23 Aug 2011
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#2302110 LA Kings as a model?

Posted by GMRwings1983 on 18 May 2012 - 06:20 PM

Where does it say that?


In my post.


#2302044 LA Kings as a model?

Posted by blueadams on 18 May 2012 - 12:12 PM

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that the LA Kings are the model franchise of the NHL. But they are, (IMO) clearly, the best team in hockey right now. They had a rough regular season, as a lot of new pieces needed to gel. But they are 11-1 in the playoffs, and that's incredible.

IF we wanted to mold our team after theirs - as good a team to pick as any IMO - how would we do it?





*I'm penciling players into our lineup to mirror theirs (not where they'd actually be in ours).

Top Six:

D. Brown(0.66PPG, 6-0, 204, 27)---A. Kopitar(0.93PPG, 6-3, 225, 24)---J. Williams(0.72PPG, 6-1, 191, 30)
D. Penner(0.26PPG, 6-4, 242, 29)---M. Richards(0.59PPG, 5-11, 199, 27)---J. Carter(0.62PPG, 6-4, 199, 27)

Z. PARISE(0.84PPG, 5-11, 195, 27)---P. Datsyuk(0.96PPG, 5-11, 197, 33)---V. Filppula(0.81PPG, 6-0, 193, 28)
T. Bertuzzi(0.54PPG, 6-3, 235, 37)---H. Zetterberg(0.84PPG, 5-11, 195, 31)---J. Franzen(0.73PPG, 6-2, 220, 32)

...Datsyuk's smaller, but he more or less matche Kopitar. Zetterberg more or less matches Richards. Franzen more or less matches Carter. Filppula more or less matches Williams. Bertuzzi's not as physical, but he more or less matches Penner. THE ONE element our top six is REALLY missing is a Dustin Brown-type player. ZACH PARISE's not the same kind of player (better in some regards, worse in others), but he's the closest thing there is, and signing him goes a long way to close the gap.





Bottom Six:

D. King-(0.52PPG, 6-3, 234, 22)---J. Stoll(0.27PPG, 6-1, 213, 29)---T. Lewis(0.10PPG, 6-1, 194, 25)
J. Nolan(0.15PPG, 6-3, 227, 22)---B. Richardson(0.14PPG, 5-11, 191, 27)---K. Clifford(0.15PPG, 6-2, 208, 21)

*?????*---*?????*---G. Nyquist(0.39PPG, 5-11, 170, 22)
*?????*---*D. Helm(0.38PPG, 5-11, 195, 25)---*J. Abdelkader(0.27PPG, 6-1, 215, 25)

Cleary(0.44), Miller(0.31), Eaves(0.10), Emmerton(0.14), Mursak(0.12), Sheahan(0.00); UFA: J. Hudler(0.62), T. Holmstrom(0.32); GR: Conner(0.38), F. Brunnstrom(0.20), Andersson(0.00)

...I think Helm matches Richardson. Even though he's smaller, I think Nyquist more or less matches Lewis. Even though he's not as physical, I think Abdelkader more or less matche Clifford. But King and Nolan, there is absolutely no one on this team that even close to matches up to either. If we want to match up against the Kings in that regard, we'll need to look outside the organization. And really, we don't have a third line center with offensive abilities like Stoll either.





Defense:

R. Scuderi(0.11PPG, 6-1, 219, 33)---D. Doughty(0.47PPG, 6-0, 212, 22)
W. Mitchell(0.32PPG, 6-3, 208, 35)---S. Voynov(0.37PPG, 5-11, 199, 22)
A. Martinez(0.24PPG, 6-1, 206, 24)---M. Greene(0.18PPG, 6-3, 232, 29)

B. Smith(0.50PPG, 6-2, 195, 23)---R. SUTER(0.58PPG, 6-1, 198, 27)
N. Kronwall(0.44PPG, 6-0, 190, 31)---*N. Lidstrom(0.49PPG, 6-1, 193, 42)
I. White(0.42PPG, 5-10, 191, 27)---J. Ericsson(0.16PPG, 6-5, 220, 28)

J. Kindl(0.24PPG); RFA: K. Quincey(0.36); UFA: B. Stuart(0.26PPG); GR: D. Janik(0.11PPG)

...IF we signed Suter, I think he would match their top point producer, Doughty. I think Lidstrom more than matches their number two point producer, Voynov. And I think Ericsson more or less matches their biggest defender, Greene. Our next three guys - Kronwall, White and Smith - IMO, are all more talented than their next three guys - Mitchell, Martinez and Scuderi. But also significantly smaller in all three matchups. And that's just something that we're not going to be able to change any time soon. So we'll have to go with talent.





Goaltending:

J. Quick(26)
J. Bernier(23)

J. Howard(28)
J. MacDonald(32)

...Jimmy's no Quick, but who is? He's about the closest thing we could ever hope for. Probably could use a more reliable backup as well, but I have no idea who that would be.





Summary:

...We're never going to be as young as the King's. That's just not going to happen. And we're never going to be quite as big as them, especially on defense. But if we added Parise. If we added Suter. If we added a third line scoring center. If we added a couple of power forwards. We could come very, very close to mirroring this excellent team. And, IMO, we might actually have a slight edge talent-wise.





Potential Lineup:

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Zach Parise ($7.000m)
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Two-Way Center? ($3.000m) / Power Forward? ($3.000m)
Justin Abdelkader ($0.866m) / Darren Helm ($1.000m) / Power Forward? ($3.000m)
Cory Emmerton ($0.533m) / Jan Mursak ($0.550m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom ($6.000m) / Ryan Suter ($7.000m)
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ian White ($2.875m)
Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Doug Janik ($0.513m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Joey MacDonald ($0.550m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,699,962; BONUSES: $37,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $300,038


#2302170 The truth of our decline.

Posted by Drake_Marcus on 19 May 2012 - 02:17 AM

Good post Richdg. I wouldn't worry about all the neggs you get on the comments. Since I've been here, I have noticed many a Wing fan either incapable or unwilling to face the fact that it will soon be time to rebuild and that we aren't a dynasty anymore. Sadly, even when you give them the facts and throw the numbers in their faces, you still wont get them to be realistic about it. Of course we all want to see Detroit be a dominant force in the league and compete for cups year after year. But when you look at the facts and look at the numbers, it's not there and it's easy to see the decline. Thanks for the reality check.


He says to his own sock.


#2302155 The truth of our decline.

Posted by Richdg on 18 May 2012 - 11:25 PM

Just wondering the favorite flavor of kool aid? Cherry or strawberry? Either way, there is some massive consumption going on......


#2302145 The truth of our decline.

Posted by InKennyWeTrust on 18 May 2012 - 10:05 PM

A shot for every typo?


Shots until it makes sense?


#2302141 The truth of our decline.

Posted by stillwater on 18 May 2012 - 09:49 PM

I suggest a drinking game based on the "new guy".

Any suggestions?


#2302139 The truth of our decline.

Posted by Crymson on 18 May 2012 - 09:38 PM

The OP is, very unsurprisingly, already at -116 after just two weeks here.


#2302134 The truth of our decline.

Posted by MabusIncarnate on 18 May 2012 - 09:20 PM

Holy Jesus am I ever sick of clicking on a new thread, all excited to read something new and then seeing the SAME things posted by the SAME people. I still love LGW but some of the new posters (yes my post count is low but I'm not brand new) are driving me insane.


Honestly this is probably the primary cause of all the negs to the posters above. It's taking something that's been posted about and discussed and debated multiple times in other threads and it's just grinding it further then it needs to go. I've been a member for a long time but i'm relatively new to posting here, and i've found that the majority of the people here are knowledgeable and fair as long as you aren't constantly falling outside of the guidelines of the forum rules.

Fact is, we made the playoffs, broke the home ice record for most consecutive regular season wins, and overall had a successful season even through major injury problems. Filppula is emerging as a valuable young player for this team, and Smith really looks like he can develop into a franchise player. Sure we got knocked out of the first round, but look at all the other excellent teams that fell out in the first round also. It's gonna happen, and i'm not very concerned about the future of this team because we really haven't fallen all that far. Once we go a season or two missing the playoffs i'll begin to look for answers.


#2302132 The truth of our decline.

Posted by Richdg on 18 May 2012 - 09:17 PM

Holy Jesus am I ever sick of clicking on a new thread, all excited to read something new and then seeing the SAME things posted by the SAME people. I still love LGW but some of the new posters (yes my post count is low but I'm not brand new) are driving me insane.

Also, number9 took the words right out of my mouth. "Can't win it all every year..."



Then don't read and post on it. Pretty simple.

Didn't you already over sing this tune on another thread...like...a couple days ago? No matter, I'll happily present you the real truth again.

First off, Cleary and Bertuzzi CAN play in the top 6, but they will likely see time in both the bottom and top 6 to make room for our YOUNG players (yes despite your oversights we do have them). We also may add another top 6 forward like Parise through FA this year which would also force those two into the bottom 6.

Now let's look at scoring percentage...since injuries will inherently impact and flaw all the stats you chose.

Datsyuk (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 118%
2008/2009 = 119%
2009/2010 = 87% - down year
2010/2011 = 105%
2011/2012 = 95%

Zetterberg (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 122%
2008/2009 = 94%
2009/2010 = 94%
2010/2011 = 100%
2011/2012 = 84% - down year

Franzen (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 52% - down year
2008/2009 = 83%
2009/2010 = 77%
2010/2011 = 72%
2011/2012 = 72%

Cleary (In and out of the Top 6)
2007/2008 = 66%
2008/2009 = 54%
2009/2010 = 53%
2010/2011 = 67%
2011/2012 = 44% - down year (nagging injury)

Bertuzzi (In and out of the Top 6)
2007/2008 = 58%
2008/2009 = 66%
2009/2010 = 53%
2010/2011 = 55%
2011/2012 = 53%

Those numbers are the definition of strong top 6 players and VERY consistent play.... 87% (Datsyuk) 84% (Zetterberg) are also arguably not AT ALL down years for a top 6 forward. Yet, because Datsyuk and Zetterberg are among the top 10 forwards in the league (offensively AND defensively, and yes even at this age) we'll call those down years for them :) You also conveniently left Filppula, Nyquist, and Hudler out of your evaluation....Those are 3 young players who WILL be on this team next year. (Hudler the only one who may get cut, but who would be likely replaced by an upgrade anyway)

Nyquist (In and out of the Top 6)
2011/2012 = 38%

Filppula (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 46%
2008/2009 = 50%
2009/2010 = 63%
2010/2011 = 54%
2011/2012 = 81% - (break out year?)

Hudler (In and out of the top 6)
2007/2008 = 51%
2008/2009 = 69%
2009/2010 = did not play
2010/2011 = 50%
2011/2012 = 61%

Hate to burst your bubble but we have one of the highest scoring and most capable Top 6's in the league....And players like Nyquist/Filpulla/Hudler are getting better and taking on larger roles in the Top 6, While Datsyuk and Zetterberg continually show us Lidstrom-like ageless play....And even if we add no one to the top 6 this offseason...that still leaves us with 8 players who are capable of playing in the top 6...

While our team does have its problems and things that should be modified, the fact is the problem is not Datsyuk or Zetterberg......Your whole argument seems to rest on the fact that you think we need All-stars like Yzerman/Federov and Datsyuk/Zetterberg in order to win cups.....Guess what? It's not about the name on the back, it's about the logo on the front. This is a TEAM game, and no player or pair of players can carry any team to a cup....We need a well rounded team with all the right role-players and leaders....and right now we need size and grit in the bottom 6, a back up goalie, and maybe a sniper....not a new Datsyuk or Zetterberg

Where is crymson when you need him to knock some sense into people


I provid proof with real actual numbers and you talk about some % that is tied to what exactly? Some fantasy league % doesn't win games. Goals do. Either by scoring them or preventing them. Thought you would know that.


#2302125 The truth of our decline.

Posted by number9 on 18 May 2012 - 08:24 PM

Good post Richdg. I wouldn't worry about all the neggs you get on the comments. Since I've been here, I have noticed many a Wing fan either incapable or unwilling to face the fact that it will soon be time to rebuild and that we aren't a dynasty anymore. Sadly, even when you give them the facts and throw the numbers in their faces, you still wont get them to be realistic about it. Of course we all want to see Detroit be a dominant force in the league and compete for cups year after year. But when you look at the facts and look at the numbers, it's not there and it's easy to see the decline. Thanks for the reality check.


Good lord, we were consistently among the top 3 teams the first half of the regular season till injuries plagued us during the second half and playoffs. And people like you take for granted that WE MADE THE PLAYOFFS....For pete's sake most of teams who DIDN'T make the playoffs are not going to be rebuilding. Why in gods name would we???? Guess What? Since 2009 we have been RELOADING...Kennys been waiting for the right FA's to hit the market....Farms been gettin riper and riper...We've allowed Helmer and Abby to fully replace Drapes and Maltby...Ericsson and Filppula are breaking out.....Basically the point is your thinking way too much in the short term.... We are not going to win every year....But we are going to be competitive EVERY YEAR. We run a system that allows us to do this and NOT have to rebuild. You'd think 16 years would enough be for people to realize this but apparently not. I swear sometimes I think you guys just want to see headliners like RNH and Landeskog come to this team and that's it.

The numbers he "threw in our faces" were completely skewed to his point. We have some of the best numbers in the league. There is not even much I can say about that because they speak for themselves. Our numbers were still better than most this year and it was A down year. Emphasis on the A in "a down year".

I'm all for a reality check. The team needed one and think the best thing that could have happened was us going out in the first round. Kenny got a little wake up and the players got a little wake up. Now lets take that reality check, add some depth this off season, and play like we want it. If we add Parise or Suter this off season (let alone both) I will feel baddddd for the other teams in the league lol. Those would be 2 HIGH caliber players added on to an already HIGH caliber team.....But good god sir this not a time to rebuild or even think about rebuilding...Unless somebody completely screws stuff up we won't be rebuilding for a longggg time.....reality checks are good but PANICKING IS NOT....at least act like u have some composure

I think you are mostly correct, but until they don't make the playoffs and/or accumulate 100 points in the regular season, the dynasty is still intact, although it's power is clearly waning.

The Wings need an infusion of youth and talent in the top 6. I think any Wings fan should be able to see that.


AGREED....and it's coming (Nyquist, Smith, Andersson, the rest of our stacked farm, not to mention the various FA's we are seeking) we just have to be patient is all. Can't win it all every year boys.


#2302094 The truth of our decline.

Posted by centcougar07 on 18 May 2012 - 04:41 PM

Good post Richdg. I wouldn't worry about all the neggs you get on the comments. Since I've been here, I have noticed many a Wing fan either incapable or unwilling to face the fact that it will soon be time to rebuild and that we aren't a dynasty anymore. Sadly, even when you give them the facts and throw the numbers in their faces, you still wont get them to be realistic about it. Of course we all want to see Detroit be a dominant force in the league and compete for cups year after year. But when you look at the facts and look at the numbers, it's not there and it's easy to see the decline. Thanks for the reality check.


#2302093 The truth of our decline.

Posted by number9 on 18 May 2012 - 04:36 PM

Made this handy little spread sheet. it covers the 5 of our top 6 forwards that are signed for next season. has the names, ages, and 3 stats for each year from 2008 through 2012. Those stats are: GP=games played, PTS=points, and shts=shoots on goal. Black numbers are no change or improved, red numbers are declines.
Name----Age--------------------2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
--------------------------------GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts

Zetterberg--32-------------75 92 358 77 73 309 74 70 309 80 80 306 82 69 267

Datsyk----34---------------- 82 97 264 81 97 248 80 70 203 56 59 137 70 67 164

Franzen----33---------------72 38 199 71 59 246 27 21 91 76 55 248 77 56 211

Burtuzzi----37---------------68 40 121 66 44 127 82 44 216 81 45 138 71 38 118

Cleary---34------------------63 42 177 74 40 163 64 34 140 68 46 192 75 33 199

Now for some follow up. Of the 15 numbers for each player, dat has 9 reds. meaning he is declinging just about every year, in just about every catagory. it would be worse but his numbers this year are improved over 2011 when he was hurt. But his 2012 numbers are worse than his 2010 numbers. Second in red numbers is Z. he has 7 out of 15 in red. Cleary has 6 out 15 in red. Burt also has 6 out of 15 in red. franzen has declined the fewest times. Only 5 red numbers. The number that stands out to me the most, is dat's decline in shots. In 2008 he took 264 shots. Then followed by 248, 203, 137, and finally 164 this past year. Granted he played 12 fewer games, but he had 103 fewer shots! That is a 38% drop!

None of us want to se a bad RW team. We all want to win Cups every year. But we also have to face facts. The fact is we need to find our next pair of great forwards that can lead us for the next 10 years. We started this run with Yzerman and federov, then continued it with dat and Z. No where in our organization do we have 2 guys that are potential 80 point per year guys. This is Holland's big challenge. Do we trade? Sign FA's? move up in the draft somewhere?
My personnel opinion is they need to be C's. A wing by himself can't do it. A good sniper-like parise is, can't score if no one can get him the puck. One last thing. Please understand the difference between good and great. dat and Z are still good players. They are not great players anymore. They will continue to work hard, provide leadership, and score 60 to 75 points for a few more years. But they are not guys that can carry a team anymore. help carry yes, but we have to find the next pair to do the heavy lifting.


Chart was fixed, loaded poorly.....


Didn't you already over sing this tune on another thread...like...a couple days ago? No matter, I'll happily present you the real truth again.

First off, Cleary and Bertuzzi CAN play in the top 6, but they will likely see time in both the bottom and top 6 to make room for our YOUNG players (yes despite your oversights we do have them). We also may add another top 6 forward like Parise through FA this year which would also force those two into the bottom 6.

Now let's look at scoring percentage...since injuries will inherently impact and flaw all the stats you chose.

Datsyuk (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 118%
2008/2009 = 119%
2009/2010 = 87% - down year
2010/2011 = 105%
2011/2012 = 95%

Zetterberg (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 122%
2008/2009 = 94%
2009/2010 = 94%
2010/2011 = 100%
2011/2012 = 84% - down year

Franzen (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 52% - down year
2008/2009 = 83%
2009/2010 = 77%
2010/2011 = 72%
2011/2012 = 72%

Cleary (In and out of the Top 6)
2007/2008 = 66%
2008/2009 = 54%
2009/2010 = 53%
2010/2011 = 67%
2011/2012 = 44% - down year (nagging injury)

Bertuzzi (In and out of the Top 6)
2007/2008 = 58%
2008/2009 = 66%
2009/2010 = 53%
2010/2011 = 55%
2011/2012 = 53%

Those numbers are the definition of strong top 6 players and VERY consistent play.... 87% (Datsyuk) 84% (Zetterberg) are also arguably not AT ALL down years for a top 6 forward. Yet, because Datsyuk and Zetterberg are among the top 10 forwards in the league (offensively AND defensively, and yes even at this age) we'll call those down years for them :) You also conveniently left Filppula, Nyquist, and Hudler out of your evaluation....Those are 3 young players who WILL be on this team next year. (Hudler the only one who may get cut, but who would be likely replaced by an upgrade anyway)

Nyquist (In and out of the Top 6)
2011/2012 = 38%

Filppula (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 46%
2008/2009 = 50%
2009/2010 = 63%
2010/2011 = 54%
2011/2012 = 81% - (break out year?)

Hudler (In and out of the top 6)
2007/2008 = 51%
2008/2009 = 69%
2009/2010 = did not play
2010/2011 = 50%
2011/2012 = 61%

Hate to burst your bubble but we have one of the highest scoring and most capable Top 6's in the league....And players like Nyquist/Filpulla/Hudler are getting better and taking on larger roles in the Top 6, While Datsyuk and Zetterberg continually show us Lidstrom-like ageless play....And even if we add no one to the top 6 this offseason...that still leaves us with 8 players who are capable of playing in the top 6...

While our team does have its problems and things that should be modified, the fact is the problem is not Datsyuk or Zetterberg......Your whole argument seems to rest on the fact that you think we need All-stars like Yzerman/Federov and Datsyuk/Zetterberg in order to win cups.....Guess what? It's not about the name on the back, it's about the logo on the front. This is a TEAM game, and no player or pair of players can carry any team to a cup....We need a well rounded team with all the right role-players and leaders....and right now we need size and grit in the bottom 6, a back up goalie, and maybe a sniper....not a new Datsyuk or Zetterberg

Where is crymson when you need him to knock some sense into people


#2302066 The truth of our decline.

Posted by Richdg on 18 May 2012 - 01:36 PM

Made this handy little spread sheet. it covers the 5 of our top 6 forwards that are signed for next season. has the names, ages, and 3 stats for each year from 2008 through 2012. Those stats are: GP=games played, PTS=points, and shts=shoots on goal. Black numbers are no change or improved, red numbers are declines.
Name----Age--------------------2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
--------------------------------GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts

Zetterberg--32-------------75 92 358 77 73 309 74 70 309 80 80 306 82 69 267

Datsyk----34---------------- 82 97 264 81 97 248 80 70 203 56 59 137 70 67 164

Franzen----33---------------72 38 199 71 59 246 27 21 91 76 55 248 77 56 211

Burtuzzi----37---------------68 40 121 66 44 127 82 44 216 81 45 138 71 38 118

Cleary---34------------------63 42 177 74 40 163 64 34 140 68 46 192 75 33 199

Now for some follow up. Of the 15 numbers for each player, dat has 9 reds. meaning he is declinging just about every year, in just about every catagory. it would be worse but his numbers this year are improved over 2011 when he was hurt. But his 2012 numbers are worse than his 2010 numbers. Second in red numbers is Z. he has 7 out of 15 in red. Cleary has 6 out 15 in red. Burt also has 6 out of 15 in red. franzen has declined the fewest times. Only 5 red numbers. The number that stands out to me the most, is dat's decline in shots. In 2008 he took 264 shots. Then followed by 248, 203, 137, and finally 164 this past year. Granted he played 12 fewer games, but he had 103 fewer shots! That is a 38% drop!

None of us want to se a bad RW team. We all want to win Cups every year. But we also have to face facts. The fact is we need to find our next pair of great forwards that can lead us for the next 10 years. We started this run with Yzerman and federov, then continued it with dat and Z. No where in our organization do we have 2 guys that are potential 80 point per year guys. This is Holland's big challenge. Do we trade? Sign FA's? move up in the draft somewhere?
My personnel opinion is they need to be C's. A wing by himself can't do it. A good sniper-like parise is, can't score if no one can get him the puck. One last thing. Please understand the difference between good and great. dat and Z are still good players. They are not great players anymore. They will continue to work hard, provide leadership, and score 60 to 75 points for a few more years. But they are not guys that can carry a team anymore. help carry yes, but we have to find the next pair to do the heavy lifting.


Chart was fixed, loaded poorly.....


#2301884 Iginla

Posted by rrasco on 17 May 2012 - 04:07 PM

No chance in hell Nysquist is out, especially for an older player. Iginla would be great, but they won't mortgage the future for instant gratification.


#2301857 Iginla

Posted by Johnz96 on 17 May 2012 - 02:38 PM

Iginla is exactly what we need. He is a sniper and would provide some much needed toughness. Nash would be good too but more expensive salary wise and for compensation in a trade. There is a lot of speculation that both will be available for a trade and that the Flames will go into rebuild mode.
I would part with Nyquist, Kindl and a first for Iginla but unfortunately it will probably take more than that for a 34 yr old who is in the last year on his contract for a team that probably won't make the playoffs next yr and will probably move on after that. He could probably score 50 goals again playing with the Wings and brings a lot more of what the Wings need than either Prise or Semin