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Ally

Member Since 23 Aug 2011
Offline Last Active Today, 02:57 AM
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#2300208 The new guys thoughts.....

Posted by number9 on 08 May 2012 - 09:27 PM

Evcery team rebuilds. The question is which is faster? Either way you do drop off. But do you wait untill everyone has retired-and get NOTHING for them? Or move them and get something back that can be part of your next upswing. We had a 15 year run that was awesome! 95-2010 there was no one better. Not even close. But now it is time to get the pieces for the next great run.
No we are very very competive. we just got beat in the 1st round. We didn't win our division. As for datsyk, is he is healthy he is going to make more than he does now. 36 year olds are guys you fill in holes with, not build around. he is already slowing down over the past five years. Injuries are becoming more common. If we could move him, yes I would. But like I said, not for prospects. I look for guys in the league just comming into their prime.


Dude your either living in fantasy land or NHL12 lol....The Wings are a dignified, respectable, classy organization. And we got that way by letting our players retire as wings. We dont get nothing for that either...players like nick give us 20+ years of dedicated loyal service. What more do you want man!?!?!? and so will players like datsyuk and zetterberg and so on. They are not common whores that get traded away as soon as they turn 35.... They are Wings. They were born Wings and they will die Wings....Even at their ripe old ages they play a 360 degree game that most "proving themselves up and coming players" will never ever achieve or even dream of. We are one of the most respected and successful organizations in all of sports because we DONT do what you are talking about. Theres a reason why in the players poll the majority of players voted that the organization theyd most like to play for is Detroit...we turn boys into legends...put rings on their fingers...then retire them and give em a job behind the scenes...its been workin since 97 and we aint changin it now....remeber 2001, 2003, and 2006? OH NOOOO BLOW UP THE TEAM!!!!! WELL NEVER WIN AGAIN WITH THESE SHMUCKS!!!! (championship in 2002 and 2008).......if ur really so worried about our Vets (not sure ive ever been worried about veteran wings) and our future, then see: Smith, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Jarnkrok, Sheahan, Mrazek, Andersson, Pulkkinen, Ouellet, Sproul, Tvrdon, Ferraro, Quine, Callahan, Marchenko.....need i say more? our farm is stacked and were almost ready to harvest again....no need to aquire the up and coming leinos and semins of the world. Hockey is different then NHL12 friend.

at this point id like to reiterate a previous posters statement....soooooo glad kenny is running this team


#2300070 The new guys thoughts.....

Posted by Richdg on 08 May 2012 - 12:13 PM

The other part of this is of course when do our guys become FA's? Holmstrom, Hudler, Stuart and nicky this year, only 1 will return, maybe. Next year datsyk, Howard, Cleary, and Filppula are UFA's. Howard will double his salary or more. do we spend the big money on a then 35 year old datsyk? Cleary will be gone and Filppula could go either way. Point is as has been the case, change is coming not matter if we like it or not. the question is, how do we manage the change and remain a Cup contender? Do we resign datsyk to another 4 or 5 year deal and commit 30 million more to him, or move him now while he has value? same with Filppula?


#2299843 The new guys thoughts.....

Posted by Frozen-Man on 07 May 2012 - 03:12 PM

Glad you brought up Shanahan. we traded for him. The let him walk as a FA. Got nothing back for him. He stayed 2 years to long.


I'm not sure how you think that a guy that scored 40 goals and 81 points his final year with the Wings stayed too long. :blink:


#2299781 The new guys thoughts.....

Posted by Richdg on 07 May 2012 - 10:34 AM

I understand your point and some of your arguements have merit, but these numbers are quite misleading. You only give stats for the last 5 year with no mention of X factors, like injuries, line mate injuries or other issues. You have Lids looking like he had a terrible year but dont mention he was a PLUS player (+21) this year and a -2 last year, Played 12 less games (and probably would have stayed out a bit longer if the wings had time) AND he was playing with a player in White that is a much less effective D-man than Rafalski.
Don't like those numbers...lets examine Bert. He has been quite consistant when it comes to numbers but he only but up 38 this year compared to a mid 40's campain...well, again, Bert missed 11 games with back spasms and a sinus infection. He played on 3 different lines with probably 8 different guys, He's a half point player a game...add 6 points in those 11 games that he missed, and he is just about the same as he has been the last 5 years EXCEPT that he improved in some areas..He was a PLUS 23 this year compared to a -7. He had the best shot percentage in the last 5 years and he was lights out in the shoot out. Same with Z and Pavs. Pavs missed 12 games...he could have missed 20. He played with Bert and a very lazy Franzen all year but still put up close to a point a game ( 67 in 70) when he was injured. Zetterberg had a horrid start but was more than a point a game, and dominated games once he got his mojo going. These two guys do sooooo much in the defensive end that their value cant be measured until you see them play.

I know people say stats dont lie...they don't........... but they can be presented in a way that looks good. You have to look at the entire picture and I dont think you did that.



Glad you brought up injuries. all of these guys are old, and older players get hurt more often than younger players. it also takes them longer to recover. That is very much part of their decline. None of these guys are going to get healthier as they get older. just doesn't happen. nicky is/was a freak of nature going as long as he did before father time caught up with him. kind of like Nolan Ryan in baseball. no one that age should be that durable and throw that hard.
The cold hard trueth is, all of those players are in decline. if you go and look at all the teams in every professional sport, the teams that make deep playoff runs and win championships have the majority of their players in the 27-32 age group. That is when men reach the physical peak, and have the experience to be good.

The evidence to our decline is starring everyone in the face. We just lost in the 1st round to the Preds. Other than Suter and Weber, is anyone on their team worth trading our best players for? Go through their forwards and ours. rank them 1-14. our 1 is better than theirs. Our 2 is better than theirs. Our 3 is better than theirs. Etc... yet we lost and it wasn't even close. They as a team were bigger, younger, faster, and more hungrey than we were.

As for money/FA items, keep this in mind. we have about 20 million overall to spend. We need to resign helm and Abdelkater. That will take around 4 million. Leaves 16. if Nicky returns, that spends another 3-4 million. Leaving 12 to spend. Even if we are lucky enough to add Suter and parise (spelling), we are at best the same team that just lost in the 1st round. Parise is going to have to have his career best year to offset the lost goals by Holmstrom and Hudler. Stuart and Suter is about a wash.

For the past 20 years we as a team have been smaller than average. but we were faster and more skilled, which allowed us to win. Now the league is filled with guys 3+ inches taller and 15+ pounds heavier that are as fast or faster and every bit as skilled.


#2299777 The new guys thoughts.....

Posted by Motown4013 on 07 May 2012 - 09:54 AM

But the problem is, all of our core are old. They are all expensive. How many will still be playing in 5 years? You can't add new expensive star players will keeping/paying the old ones. Look at the following:

Z is 32. his point totals the last 5 years are: 92, 73, 70, 80, and 69.

Dat: 34 years points: 97, 97, 70, 59, 67

Franzen is 33 5 year points: 38, 59, 21, 55, 56 why a guy that has never scored 60 points in a season is considered a premier play is beyond me. he was 69th in scoring this year.

Bertuzzi is 37. 5 year points: 40, 44, 44, 45, 38

Cleary is 34. 5 year totals: 42, 40, 34, 46, 33

Lidstrom is 42 (we share that....LOL) 5 year totals: 70, 59, 49, 62, 34.

Kronwall is 31. 5 year totals: 35, 51, 22, 37, 36.

Now here is the point. All fo these guys are on a negitive slope. yes some improved in 2011, but with the ages involved that is more likely a 1 time thing than a trend. This group is not going to get better. Only worse. All are signed except Nicky of course. In this day and age we can't just cut them either.

No I do not exect Z and Dat to get traded. To much attached to them. But if we where going to, now is the time. Wait much longer and they will not have much value. Looking ahead a couple of years, a team that is lead by a 38 year old and 36 year old, at C is not going to go well.

I understand your point and some of your arguements have merit, but these numbers are quite misleading. You only give stats for the last 5 year with no mention of X factors, like injuries, line mate injuries or other issues. You have Lids looking like he had a terrible year but dont mention he was a PLUS player (+21) this year and a -2 last year, Played 12 less games (and probably would have stayed out a bit longer if the wings had time) AND he was playing with a player in White that is a much less effective D-man than Rafalski.
Don't like those numbers...lets examine Bert. He has been quite consistant when it comes to numbers but he only but up 38 this year compared to a mid 40's campain...well, again, Bert missed 11 games with back spasms and a sinus infection. He played on 3 different lines with probably 8 different guys, He's a half point player a game...add 6 points in those 11 games that he missed, and he is just about the same as he has been the last 5 years EXCEPT that he improved in some areas..He was a PLUS 23 this year compared to a -7. He had the best shot percentage in the last 5 years and he was lights out in the shoot out. Same with Z and Pavs. Pavs missed 12 games...he could have missed 20. He played with Bert and a very lazy Franzen all year but still put up close to a point a game ( 67 in 70) when he was injured. Zetterberg had a horrid start but was more than a point a game, and dominated games once he got his mojo going. These two guys do sooooo much in the defensive end that their value cant be measured until you see them play.

I know people say stats dont lie...they don't........... but they can be presented in a way that looks good. You have to look at the entire picture and I dont think you did that.


#2299724 The new guys thoughts.....

Posted by Richdg on 06 May 2012 - 11:50 PM

But the problem is, all of our core are old. They are all expensive. How many will still be playing in 5 years? You can't add new expensive star players will keeping/paying the old ones. Look at the following:

Z is 32. his point totals the last 5 years are: 92, 73, 70, 80, and 69.

Dat: 34 years points: 97, 97, 70, 59, 67

Franzen is 33 5 year points: 38, 59, 21, 55, 56 why a guy that has never scored 60 points in a season is considered a premier play is beyond me. he was 69th in scoring this year.

Bertuzzi is 37. 5 year points: 40, 44, 44, 45, 38

Cleary is 34. 5 year totals: 42, 40, 34, 46, 33

Lidstrom is 42 (we share that....LOL) 5 year totals: 70, 59, 49, 62, 34.

Kronwall is 31. 5 year totals: 35, 51, 22, 37, 36.

Now here is the point. All fo these guys are on a negitive slope. yes some improved in 2011, but with the ages involved that is more likely a 1 time thing than a trend. This group is not going to get better. Only worse. All are signed except Nicky of course. In this day and age we can't just cut them either.

No I do not exect Z and Dat to get traded. To much attached to them. But if we where going to, now is the time. Wait much longer and they will not have much value. Looking ahead a couple of years, a team that is lead by a 38 year old and 36 year old, at C is not going to go well.


#2299691 The new guys thoughts.....

Posted by Richdg on 06 May 2012 - 08:01 PM

Yzerman set the bar on hanging on for the last couple years. he played his last 4 or 5 years at less than 2 million. Add in a little inflation and the number is 3 million. The part every forgets is, to get someone good, you have to give someone good. There is also a salary cap. I know may are hot to trot over parise, but I am not one of them. he is another small forward, which we have a bunch of. the days of a team full of 5-11/180 players is over. yes a few are needed and can be successfull. But overall the average size is closer to 6-2/205. We have 3 forwards that are that size or bigger. 1 is old Burt, 1 disappears-Franzen, and 1 is very young Abelkater.
yes moving Zetterberg or datsyk will cause riots int he streets. I get that. But where will they be in 3 years? Old broken and with no trade value.


#2300688 The new guys thoughts.....

Posted by Richdg on 11 May 2012 - 12:29 PM

Do you listen to the words coming out of your mouth? Our second best penalty killer being out is not, not a problem. You must not remember but Babs was PISSED that Holland didn't add anyone to the bottom 6 at the deadline. Pavs and Z typically only kill big penalties....like when were up by 1 in the 3rd. Eaves, Helm, Miller, Abby, and Cleary take the rest. You must not understand Hollands style either because he does not just add people willy nilly....He almost never makes lopsided trades or goes after guys unless there a perfect fit, contractually and athletically. On top of that he thinks 10 steps ahead....like trading away Commodore to keep roster spots open for Dekeyster or someone else...My guess as to why he didn't add anyone is because there's probably someone he wants who will be an FA soon or hes saving money to make a run at Parise or Suter or something. Again, he thinks 10 steps ahead....he doesn't want to win one cup now....he wants to win 3 in the next 10 seasons.

I have no idea why you are obsessing about space. I understand your logic and the space argument...space is important....but we get plenty of it. Our top 6 is not a problem (though I would like to see a pure sniper better than Hudler amongst them). Our top 6 had a much better scoring percentage going into the series than Nashvilles top 6 and they had plenty of space to work....we out shot them 160 to 116 over the series.


game 5 22-25 (SF/SA)
game 4 41-17
game 3 43-22
game 2 17-26
game 1 37-26

You sir need to go rewatch that series....yes it's painful cause we lost and I remember a few painful goofs we made....but overall we played pretty darn good series, we just got really unlucky at times. We couldnt get a good bounce to save our lives, Rinne played amazing while Howie was average, we had zero checking lines to create energy and no third scoring line...while they had 2 big checking lines and 1 of those lines could also score. And we had Dats and Z focused on defense cause Helm, Eaves, and Cleary couldnt be utilized.

Guys like Zetterberg and Franzen are some of the best playoff producers in the league....this just wasnt their year...you cant win em all. Sorry but it has nothing to do with space bud.



Oh god yeah. Dont let me forget all the penalties we took.....even if we had Helm and Eaves and Cleary at 100% those penalties were so unlike us and were basically shooting us in the foot.


Have you ever played the game? it is all about space and time. Space and time allows you to score. take away space and time and the other time doesn't score. yes we had shots. very few were quality shots. Most where the flip it at the net and hope type. Not quality scoring chances. Yes we spent a ton of time on the PK. That is what happens when you get out skated, which we were. Now all of our stars where out performed. All were healthy. This should be a big giant warning sign to you, and I hope Holland, which I beleive it is. As I quoted before, babcock said it best: "we are going in the wrong direction".


#2299116 Philadelphia bar brews a beer called "Crosby Tears"

Posted by 55fan on 04 May 2012 - 01:41 AM

And if the head gets too foamy and they have to let it rest, you can enjoy a white Russian in its place.


#2298311 Is Rinne Getting Exposed?

Posted by 55fan on 30 April 2012 - 05:02 PM

Not to say that he's bad or anything like that, because he's a very good goalie, but we made him look better than he is.

He would give up rebound after rebound and the Wings would all stand there and think, "Hey. There's the puck. It would have been really cool if someone would have been standing there to take another shot. Is someone going to get that? No? Oh, we're on defense now? Ok, I'll just skate to the other end. Unless my shift is over..."


#2298253 Is Rinne Getting Exposed?

Posted by RusDRW on 30 April 2012 - 11:57 AM

Same thing happened in 2010 when the Sharks beat the Wings and then bowed out in the Conference Finals in 4 straight games against the Hawks.


didn't they lose last year to Vancouver in 4 games as well after beating us?

We can call it "detroit syndrome" :)


#2298233 Is Rinne Getting Exposed?

Posted by puckbags on 30 April 2012 - 10:52 AM

Nashville looks flat and tired..almost seems like they treated us as their Stanley Cup.


#2298574 Predators bench Radulov and A. Kostitsyn for Game 3 of WCSF

Posted by Hockeymom1960 on 01 May 2012 - 07:08 PM

Hey, I remember how Scotty used to give a doorman or someone a hockey stick in the hotel lobby and that person would ask a player to sign the stick and that's how Scotty found out who violated the curfew.


#2298509 Predators bench Radulov and A. Kostitsyn for Game 3 of WCSF

Posted by Dabura on 01 May 2012 - 01:40 PM

But it's ok to ram an opposing player's face into the glass.


#2297542 Johan Franzen wants to 'have more fun'

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 27 April 2012 - 10:36 AM

Franzen managing to say the absolute wrong thing for how he's viewed here.

Winning is fun. Scoring goals is fun. Try working harder every day, every game, every shift, and you'll probably win more games and score more goals and have more fun.