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RichdgMember Since 03 May 2012
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Posted by Richdg on 07 June 2012 - 02:21 PM
Posted by Richdg on 07 June 2012 - 02:19 PM
I've already addressed this issue. It would help for you to read back over the WHOLE discussion, but in the event that you won't I'll go ahead and paraphrase all of my assertions.
1. It is next to impossible to tell whether a kid will be good in the NHL based ONLY on 111 NCAA hockey games.
2. Unless you're a once in a lifetime talent like Stamkos, Toews, or Crosby you need to undergo proper player development.
3 Proper player development includes competing in training camp and spending time in the AHL.
4. Players who have not undergone this process of development, and aren't considered once in a lifetime talents, should not be guaranteed NHL roster spots over established players.
5. Justin Schultz is not a once in a lifetime talent. He also hasn't undergone proper player development. Therefore, he shouldn't be guaranteed anything without competing for it.
6. Sign Justin Schultz to a two way contract and let him develop and compete like all of our other prospects. When he's ready, he's ready.
Again you are speaking to facts not in evidence. You have no idea, nor do I or anyone else, if Schultz is ready right now to play in the NHL. Did not Abdelkder go straight from MSU to the Wings? yes he did. Kreider of the Rangers just did it this year. Kreider was drafted in the same area of the draft as Schultz was. I am sure there are more examples of this, just have those 2 off the top of my head. You are under estimating the value of college hockey and over valuing the level of play in the AHL. Heck most seasons the Wolverines are better than the Griffins. Same can be said for MSU and other top programs.
Who is better, Smith or Schultz? Does it matter? The fact is Schultz is better than Kindl period. Which automatically would give Schultz a #6/#7 spot on the Wings...
Sign Suter, Schultz, Dekeyser...trade Kindl, let Qunicey explore RFA. Kindl has been given ample opportunity to prove he belongs in the NHL, and he does, but not here. He may make a #5/#6 somewhere else, but he is not going to here. Drafts are a crap shoot and we are learning that Kindl was pretty much a bust for where he was drafted...Quincey is more valuable to us for the draft picks in return, not worth $3.5M. I hate sounding negative about two NHL experienced defensemen, but like someone said earlier, now is the time to stick our neck out and go young and let them grow in the organization...
Inexperience bottom 3? Yes, but they will all grow together and in three-four years they will all be great! As long as they all pay together and learn together...
Dekeyser would be a great signing.....next spring. He has alreay decided to go back to WMU for one more year. IIRC.......
Posted by Richdg on 07 June 2012 - 02:05 PM
Now if any rumors are correct, and lord only knows if they are, Det is looking to get bigger, faster, younger, and tougher. Ott is rumored to be in love with Hudler and needs 1 more D. Quincey and Foligno are RFA's. Hudler is a UFA of course. It helps both teams. maybe a draft pick back to Det to balance it out a bit more.
For those that don't know Nick Foligno he is a 24 year old LW from NY. he is listed at 6-0/210 on 1 site and 6-1/215 on others. he is good for 15+ goals per year and about 90 PIM's on average. basicly he is a LW McCarty, minus the off the ice stuff. Would think he ends up in the 2.8 to 3.2 million range to sign long term. Thoughts?
Posted by Richdg on 07 June 2012 - 10:36 AM
Posted by Richdg on 07 June 2012 - 10:30 AM
Picking him up for nothing IS a good thing. No one is debating that. I think the debate here is...
Is he NHL ready right now?
The answer to that is a resounding no.
Basing that on your decades of being a pro hockey scout and coach? fact is no one knows how anyone will turn out. yes that also includes Smith. A handfull of games does not make a career. besides, who said he has to help this season? if we keep Quincey we have 6 Dman already. i do expect us to get one of the 4 top UFA D's out there. The perfect solution would be sign schultz, 1 year at GR, then he replaces White who is a UFA after this season.
Posted by Richdg on 07 June 2012 - 12:08 AM
Brendan Smith played two years of AHL hockey and competed for his spot in two Red Wings training camps. Schultz didn't. Next.
That isn't schultz fault he hasn't played there yet. well it kinda is. But, when they did play at the same level on the same team, schultz was better. That is fact, not opinion. better numbers-not a lot, accross the board. Which if anything should make us more excited about going after him. Picking up another guy that is equal to or better than smith, and costing us nothing!!!! How can any logical fan not think this is a good move?
Posted by Richdg on 06 June 2012 - 08:46 PM
What Kipwinger said is true. Schultz played hockey in the NCAA, and in a pretty weak league at that. Sure, he wanted to get an education, and I don't fault him for that. People still shouldn't look at those point totals and get a hard on over them. He is a prospect at this stage, and nothing more.
So let me get his right. Smith plays at the same school, in the same league, and per those on this forum he is a can't miss prospect. schultz out performs Smith and he is to risky, overrated etc........ is this what you are trying to say? just want to make sure before I bust a gut laughing my ass off.
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Posted by Richdg on 06 June 2012 - 03:17 PM
I can honestly see the Wings standing pat with 2 defensemen and a top six forward, and addressing any additional issues at the trade deadline. There's no real reason to run out and spend money on a backup goalie or bottom six forward when either of those things could be had with very little effort later on. Then again, I could be totally wrong, but I certainly won't be surprised if Holland only makes a couple of moves. Especially if any of those moves involves picking up high end talent.
The backup goalie is entirely health related. Goalies with back issues are very worrying. TBH I expect this to be address real fast come July 1.
Wrong - I cannot remember one trade that involved a players rights prior to free agency that was contingent on signing.
There have been some where the compensation would change if the player did or did not sign but the eve nif the player did not sign with the team there was some compensation going to the player's original team. That is why we saw Dan Hamhuis' rights get traded twice in one off season a couple summers ago.
Wrong? how? Do you work in the NHL's office? just becasue you can't remember doesn't mean it does or does not happen. I don't know all of the by laws of the NHL. Just speaking for myself, i would not trade 1st round picks on a huge risk like not being able to sign a guy. maybe 3rd for the rights, and add an additional 1st if he signs. Just as an example.
Posted by Richdg on 06 June 2012 - 12:35 PM
Do you ever get tired of being wrong? its absolutely Waddell's opinion, unless you can produce a link to Hollands comments.
I'm fairly certain this is the article/blog you're talking about. Its George Malik using a Dave Waddell interview for the Windsor Star as the basis for his opinion piece.
The portions in big quotes aren't quotes from Holland, they are the portions that Malik has borrowed from Waddell's article. The quotes from Holland are in small quotations within the borrowed material.
At no point does he say we need X number of players, or what type of players we'd need. Just that he's open to exploring the trade market for the right players rights, that Joey MacDonald will be healthy next year, that he wants the team to be deeper and a little different and that he always feels pressure.
Listen not going to get into the quality of reporting in todays media. When things are quoted, the sourcing is terrible. so if I am wrong, so be it. But there have been other posts on this very forum over the past month saying the same thing, being attributed to Holland. Does it really matter if it is 4 or 5 players? Not at all. from day 1 it has been backup goalie, top 6 forward, bottom 6 forward with grit, and a top dman. The only real change was a second top dman.
Posted by Richdg on 06 June 2012 - 11:57 AM
Now onto the list of questions....
1. we have 21 on the roster. Holland wants to add 5 or so new players. That makes 26. Roster is limited to 23. 3 need to go. Yes a Nyquist could go down to GR. same with Mcdonald. In theory emmerton and mursak. That would open up the roster space.
2. the idea of trading for rights has some merit. but who do you trade for those rights? Say it is now June 25th and the devils realiaze they can't resign parise. they decide to trade his rights. Who do we offer, that will keep us from being outbid? Where are the trade pieces?
3. if you let Quincey walk, which is an option, you have to get 2 UFA's to sign. there is no guarente that will happen, or if it does that we end up with someone better than Quincey. For example. is 31 year old Jackman better than Quincey, and who much more would we have to pay to get him?
4. Right now i am less interested in the names of players, we can all come up with long lists of personnel fav's that could help. The far more interesting part is the how do we get player x, y, and x etc.....
Posted by Richdg on 06 June 2012 - 01:11 AM
Posted by Richdg on 06 June 2012 - 12:49 AM
Start at goalie, it is the easiest to answer. McDonald will be gone and a UFA will come in. McDonald has zero trade value, so either will be cut or become a throw in on a deal. There are several veterans goalies that could be had this year. No major changes in the roster, cap, or status of the team. If possible I would try to extend Howard now, rather than risk him next offseason.
Defensemen. This starts to get trickier. We have 6. yes Quincey could be allowed to walk, but that is a pretty big risk to take. There are 4 or5 real good UFA's, but then we have a fairly big drop off to the next group. We have to get 1 of those top 4 or 5 just to stand pat with Lidstrom retiring. I expect Quincey to be resigned. he can always be traded later on if we fail in our goal to sign 2 UFA Dmen. In a perfect world, we sign 1 of the Suter/garrison/Carle/Widemen group, keep Quincey to start the year, and sign Schultz. Trade Quincey once Schultz is ready. be it this year or next off season. The only other thing i would do with the BL corp is extend White now.
Forwards. This is far more challenging. There is one top 6 forward available via UFA: Parise. After him, most of the top UFA forwards are 2nd and 3rd line guys. Or they are C, and we are pretty deep at C if we so choose. Dat, Z, and Filppula is a pretty good 1-3 C rotation. helm at the 4th line C is perfect for the checking role. There are many names we can add for the 2nd and 3rd lines, that can be counted on for 20 goals. But where do we go if we miss out on parise? The million dollar question. If we fall to sign him, that means a trade. But where is the valueable players for us to trade? they are all on our roster already.
Trade value. Ok, of the 21 guys on the roster as of today, who can be moved, and who has value?
Dat, E, and Burt all have no trade clauses. Leaves only 18 names left.
Eaves (injury), Miller, mursak, Emmerton, Cleary (knee surgery), McDonald and Kindl really don't have much value for trades. keep in mind we need a top 6 forward.
That leaves a group of guys with value, that we would prefer to keep. Kronwall, White, Smith, Howard, Filppula, Z, Nyquist, Helm, and Abby.
That leaves 2 guys left that everyone has mixed feelings about: Franzen and Quincey.
So, now what palyers do we use to go after a top 6 forward? The entire group of Eaves, Miller, Mursak, Emmerton, Cleary, McDonald, and Kindl isn't going to be enough. Even if you add Quncey to that mix, you still don't have enough to get a top 6 guy. Not to mention you would have to cancel the Griffins season, just to have enough body's to fill out the roster. If you use guys like Filppula, Z, and Kronwall, you are opening other holes up, that you now need to fill.
So that brings me back to the question. If we miss out on parise, where do we go? grab 3 20 goal per year guys? Try to swing a major trade and open up another hole? maybe even bank the money untill next year, which is a much deeper class?
Posted by Richdg on 05 June 2012 - 09:18 PM
Now some opinions. I know you all could hardly wait......LOL
I expect 2 of the 5 moves that Holland is talking about coming via FA. Top D and backup G. There are several options at each of those spots. For a high scoring forward there is only one real option, that is Parise. But what if we don't get him? Do we have the pieces to trade and get a high scoring forward? Not sure on that, without moving another major piece and creating another hole. But this is were Holland will make or break this offseason. There are several very good young forwards that are in the last season of their contracts. Clarkson, Perry, Staal, Getzlev (spelling), Horton if healthy, Purcell, etc........ Many possible options can come to mind, but all costs a lot to make happen. Like I said, going to be very interesting......
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Posted by Richdg on 05 June 2012 - 02:22 PM
Kronwall and Widemen
E and White
Smith and Schultz
Kindl as the 7th
This then allows us to either let Quincey walk this year for picks, or to be traded for other needs.