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Richdg

Member Since 03 May 2012
Offline Last Active Dec 11 2014 04:22 PM
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#2302135 The truth of our decline.

Posted by Richdg on 18 May 2012 - 09:21 PM

The issue with Pulkkinen is he'll likely be limited to a pure offensive force. He's got a great shot and solid offensive instincts, but he lacks speed and defensive awareness. I think he could wind up as a solid top 6 guy, but I'm not sure about the "great forward" tag that Rich mentioned. You could toss him on a line that covers up his lack of speed/defense... a good complimentary player, I think. Could throw guys like Tatar and Tvrdon into the conversation too, but I have more faith in Nyquist, Jarnkrok and Jurco.



Sure there is, which is why I'm skeptical about Jurco. Nyquist has shown he can excel at the AHL level, and looked right in place on a line with Datsyuk. Jarnkrok's playing in the SEL, which is right on par or higher with the AHL. At times during the currenty IIHF tournament, he's looked like the best player on Sweden. I agree that you can never fully predict how good a player will be, but Nyquist and Jarnkrok have looked right in place with NHL caliber players.




#2302132 The truth of our decline.

Posted by Richdg on 18 May 2012 - 09:17 PM

Holy Jesus am I ever sick of clicking on a new thread, all excited to read something new and then seeing the SAME things posted by the SAME people. I still love LGW but some of the new posters (yes my post count is low but I'm not brand new) are driving me insane.

Also, number9 took the words right out of my mouth. "Can't win it all every year..."



Then don't read and post on it. Pretty simple.

Didn't you already over sing this tune on another thread...like...a couple days ago? No matter, I'll happily present you the real truth again.

First off, Cleary and Bertuzzi CAN play in the top 6, but they will likely see time in both the bottom and top 6 to make room for our YOUNG players (yes despite your oversights we do have them). We also may add another top 6 forward like Parise through FA this year which would also force those two into the bottom 6.

Now let's look at scoring percentage...since injuries will inherently impact and flaw all the stats you chose.

Datsyuk (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 118%
2008/2009 = 119%
2009/2010 = 87% - down year
2010/2011 = 105%
2011/2012 = 95%

Zetterberg (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 122%
2008/2009 = 94%
2009/2010 = 94%
2010/2011 = 100%
2011/2012 = 84% - down year

Franzen (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 52% - down year
2008/2009 = 83%
2009/2010 = 77%
2010/2011 = 72%
2011/2012 = 72%

Cleary (In and out of the Top 6)
2007/2008 = 66%
2008/2009 = 54%
2009/2010 = 53%
2010/2011 = 67%
2011/2012 = 44% - down year (nagging injury)

Bertuzzi (In and out of the Top 6)
2007/2008 = 58%
2008/2009 = 66%
2009/2010 = 53%
2010/2011 = 55%
2011/2012 = 53%

Those numbers are the definition of strong top 6 players and VERY consistent play.... 87% (Datsyuk) 84% (Zetterberg) are also arguably not AT ALL down years for a top 6 forward. Yet, because Datsyuk and Zetterberg are among the top 10 forwards in the league (offensively AND defensively, and yes even at this age) we'll call those down years for them :) You also conveniently left Filppula, Nyquist, and Hudler out of your evaluation....Those are 3 young players who WILL be on this team next year. (Hudler the only one who may get cut, but who would be likely replaced by an upgrade anyway)

Nyquist (In and out of the Top 6)
2011/2012 = 38%

Filppula (Top 6)
2007/2008 = 46%
2008/2009 = 50%
2009/2010 = 63%
2010/2011 = 54%
2011/2012 = 81% - (break out year?)

Hudler (In and out of the top 6)
2007/2008 = 51%
2008/2009 = 69%
2009/2010 = did not play
2010/2011 = 50%
2011/2012 = 61%

Hate to burst your bubble but we have one of the highest scoring and most capable Top 6's in the league....And players like Nyquist/Filpulla/Hudler are getting better and taking on larger roles in the Top 6, While Datsyuk and Zetterberg continually show us Lidstrom-like ageless play....And even if we add no one to the top 6 this offseason...that still leaves us with 8 players who are capable of playing in the top 6...

While our team does have its problems and things that should be modified, the fact is the problem is not Datsyuk or Zetterberg......Your whole argument seems to rest on the fact that you think we need All-stars like Yzerman/Federov and Datsyuk/Zetterberg in order to win cups.....Guess what? It's not about the name on the back, it's about the logo on the front. This is a TEAM game, and no player or pair of players can carry any team to a cup....We need a well rounded team with all the right role-players and leaders....and right now we need size and grit in the bottom 6, a back up goalie, and maybe a sniper....not a new Datsyuk or Zetterberg

Where is crymson when you need him to knock some sense into people


I provid proof with real actual numbers and you talk about some % that is tied to what exactly? Some fantasy league % doesn't win games. Goals do. Either by scoring them or preventing them. Thought you would know that.


#2302089 Iginla

Posted by Richdg on 18 May 2012 - 04:14 PM

So corked bats, cut baseballs and playing the puck from the bench is ok as long as you don't get caught? :huh:



Are you 12? no it isn't ok. It is against the rules. But does it happen? yes all the time. The HOF's in every sport are filled with guys who broke the rules.


#2302088 The truth of our decline.

Posted by Richdg on 18 May 2012 - 04:12 PM

The easy part is to say: "we need to upgrade at x, y, z postions". the harder part is doing it. Lets look at a few things.

1. we don't have much to trade. Burt-old and no trade clause, Dat-old and no trade cluase, Z not really old yetbut how many are willing to take on the remianing 9 years of his contract, franzen-same problem, Ericcson-no trade clause. No 2-3 players in our minors are going to bring a big name. The only real pieces we could trade are Filppula and Kornwall.
2. trying to rebuild via FA is always a crap shoot. You never know how it will turn out. You also tend to overpay for players.

3. The draft. In many ways we got very very lucky. getting 3 superstars: dat, Z and Hommer, that late in a draft is PURE luck. Not going to happen again. But looking past those 3, how mnay superstars or even stars have we drafted in the past decade? Not many. Howard was in the past decade, but after him the next best would be Filppula. good yes, but star?


#2302085 The truth of our decline.

Posted by Richdg on 18 May 2012 - 03:56 PM

Honestly, I feel like that "pair" is going to stem out of Nyquist, Jarnkrok and/or Jurco. Some people doubt their upside, but I firmly believe that the first two are for sure, solid two-way players. I'd still like to see what happens with Jurco, but I think he's got a lot of upside.



Hard to say with guys that have yet to play a single professional hockey game. There is a huge step from juniors to the minors, and an even bigger step from the minors to the NHL.


#2302066 The truth of our decline.

Posted by Richdg on 18 May 2012 - 01:36 PM

Made this handy little spread sheet. it covers the 5 of our top 6 forwards that are signed for next season. has the names, ages, and 3 stats for each year from 2008 through 2012. Those stats are: GP=games played, PTS=points, and shts=shoots on goal. Black numbers are no change or improved, red numbers are declines.
Name----Age--------------------2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
--------------------------------GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts

Zetterberg--32-------------75 92 358 77 73 309 74 70 309 80 80 306 82 69 267

Datsyk----34---------------- 82 97 264 81 97 248 80 70 203 56 59 137 70 67 164

Franzen----33---------------72 38 199 71 59 246 27 21 91 76 55 248 77 56 211

Burtuzzi----37---------------68 40 121 66 44 127 82 44 216 81 45 138 71 38 118

Cleary---34------------------63 42 177 74 40 163 64 34 140 68 46 192 75 33 199

Now for some follow up. Of the 15 numbers for each player, dat has 9 reds. meaning he is declinging just about every year, in just about every catagory. it would be worse but his numbers this year are improved over 2011 when he was hurt. But his 2012 numbers are worse than his 2010 numbers. Second in red numbers is Z. he has 7 out of 15 in red. Cleary has 6 out 15 in red. Burt also has 6 out of 15 in red. franzen has declined the fewest times. Only 5 red numbers. The number that stands out to me the most, is dat's decline in shots. In 2008 he took 264 shots. Then followed by 248, 203, 137, and finally 164 this past year. Granted he played 12 fewer games, but he had 103 fewer shots! That is a 38% drop!

None of us want to se a bad RW team. We all want to win Cups every year. But we also have to face facts. The fact is we need to find our next pair of great forwards that can lead us for the next 10 years. We started this run with Yzerman and federov, then continued it with dat and Z. No where in our organization do we have 2 guys that are potential 80 point per year guys. This is Holland's big challenge. Do we trade? Sign FA's? move up in the draft somewhere?
My personnel opinion is they need to be C's. A wing by himself can't do it. A good sniper-like parise is, can't score if no one can get him the puck. One last thing. Please understand the difference between good and great. dat and Z are still good players. They are not great players anymore. They will continue to work hard, provide leadership, and score 60 to 75 points for a few more years. But they are not guys that can carry a team anymore. help carry yes, but we have to find the next pair to do the heavy lifting.


Chart was fixed, loaded poorly.....


#2302056 2012 Lockout Watch

Posted by Richdg on 18 May 2012 - 12:48 PM

O6 and Euro6? Um...you think the travel is bad now. Try that commute.

I'll pass.



Some version of that will happen. Just a matter of when. Going to Europe isn't that bad. yes they trips will be 2 weeks long, but still it will work. BTW the Super series in Rugby has worse travel. they go for 3-4 weeks at a time. back to the point, you also do it unbalanced. Play the team on your continent say 45-50 times, then go overseas for 2 trips for another 12 games, then have them come to you home. So really only 2 long trips per team.


#2302047 LA Kings as a model?

Posted by Richdg on 18 May 2012 - 12:20 PM

Stall better than Abdelakader? You are kidding right? you do realize that Justin outscored Stall this season right? Justin-25 is just entering what should be his best years. Stall 29 has been at the peak of his career.


#2302045 2012 Lockout Watch

Posted by Richdg on 18 May 2012 - 12:12 PM

Yes there is risk here, but if some forward thinking types get involved, there could be some huge upsides. For example, how about a super league? the original 6 in NA and 6 in Europe all in the same league? think about it, how big would that be. The first truely international professional league.

yes the long contracts will come to an end. There are several and all are bad. Go look at franzen or Dipatro (spelling). IIRC Franzen-33 has 8 years left on his contract. bad bad deal.
last thought. bettmen was hired by the owners. they like him. he isn't going anywhere anytime soon.


#2301652 Babcock and Holland want to keep Homer.

Posted by Richdg on 16 May 2012 - 01:07 PM

Just because the Red Wings website lists him as a Winger doesn't override the fact that he played center almost all season. If you watched the games you'd know this.



You keep trying to move the goal posts....I'm not saying he's going to be an elite player in the league, I think he'll be a good 3rd line player. He's developing better than Abdelkader has and Abby is already an NHL player. Sounds like you're already conceding he'll be more than a career minor leaguer.



This is your problem right here, if they aren't the next Claude Giroux or Pavel Datsyuk they are all the same and they suck...nothing more than filler etc.
Not every draft pick is going to be a superstar, and you will never have a team full of them, these "journeymen" players are integral to every team in the league.

If you really think Tatar doesn't have any more offensive upside than Mursak or especially Emmerton then I don't know what to say other than...Don't ever go into scouting.



So let me get this straight. You, some unkown poster on an opinion forum knows better than the Offical Red Wings site? Ok. Cool. Just wanted to be clear.

I am not moving any post whatsoever. Abby is a much better player than tatar all teh way around. he is bigger, faster, tougher, and if a true 3rd/4th line guy. tatar is not. Never will be. He is but one of many faceless organizational players that every team has. he has no trade value and he will never amount to anything at the next level. Doesn't mean he doesn't work or is a bad guy, it only means he isn't good enough.

Please stop with the stupid "if you ever watched" comments. They just make you look silly. I have been watching the RW since before you were a gleem in your daddy's eye. I went to games at Olympia. Watched the Wings on PASS. The RW's are not something new to me. Heck I look back at the days when the RW were lucky to win 20 games per year. it hurts. Don't ever want to see it again.


#2301596 Capgeek Rosters

Posted by Richdg on 16 May 2012 - 12:17 AM

Just a few things.

1. Rumors are Suter and parise will be over 7.5 million each.

2. Ericsson has a no trade clause. So does Burt and Dat btw....


3. Helm and Abdelkader will both be around 2 million. Somewhere in the 1.8-2.2 range for each.

4. Quincy will be 3.5 million or more.

5. I do hope that Nicky and Hommer call it a career so we all can move on.


#2301595 Babcock and Holland want to keep Homer.

Posted by Richdg on 16 May 2012 - 12:12 AM

If you pay so little attention to the Wings that you think Zetterberg played the wing this year, why should any of us take your opinion of our farm team any more seriously? From your assessment of prospects in the NHL the only ones that count are ones that will become an elite talent.

I'm not saying Tatar will be our future #1 left winger. I think he'll be a great 3rd line left winger, or a good 2nd line winger once he gets a little stronger and that he's more valuable to the franchise than either Emmerton or Mursak.



Really?
http://redwings.nhl.....htm?id=8468083

what does that link say? If I understand English correctly it says Zetterberg is a LW. he was a LW on Dat's line and he was the LW on Filppula's line. Granted he did take faceoffs. So what. He always has.

I guess time will tell which of us is right.

There aren't too many career minor leaguers who lead their team in scoring over 2 seasons.







Good prospects don't Play in the AHL for 3 years. 1 (if that long) and done. BTW, just to compare, Abdelakter had 52 points in his only full season in GR. So from a numbers alone standpoint, Tatar is Abdelakader offensively but 3 inches shorter and 35 pounds lighter.

Tatar is a good prospect a slightly bigger and
Much faster version of hudler but better defensively. Tatar might not break 65 points in the NHL but at worst he'll be a 40 point player that will hustle his ass off and bring a great attitude to the rink. we knew when we drafted him he was going to have to wait a while to physically mature and polish his defensive game which he focussed on this season which is why his offense remained around the same. Next year he improves offensive game and still carries his new found defensive game with him. I do think with all our soon to be playing prospects that are too smal someone or More then one needs to be moved. I also think we need to jettison a few of our current bottom six players we have too many redundant players.



Tatar, Emmerton, Muarsk, etc..... are all the same guy. yes they work hard. But just not enough of any one thing to set them apart from a dozen others. These are not really prospects. They are filler. Which yes in the day of a salary cap, you need. But none of these guys are the next stars of our team. We lack those in our youth. Nothing there but journeymen.


#2301533 Babcock and Holland want to keep Homer.

Posted by Richdg on 15 May 2012 - 04:56 PM

If you pay so little attention to the Wings that you think Zetterberg played the wing this year, why should any of us take your opinion of our farm team any more seriously? From your assessment of prospects in the NHL the only ones that count are ones that will become an elite talent.

I'm not saying Tatar will be our future #1 left winger. I think he'll be a great 3rd line left winger, or a good 2nd line winger once he gets a little stronger and that he's more valuable to the franchise than either Emmerton or Mursak.



I have seen Tatar play 18 or so games the past couple years IN GR. He is nothing more than filler. He is going to be a career minor leaguer that gets calls up to9 fill in when a real NHL player gets hurt. That is all he is.


#2301488 Babcock and Holland want to keep Homer.

Posted by Richdg on 15 May 2012 - 12:24 PM

58 pts is in the top 25 in the AHL. Neither Emmerton or Mursak have scored anywhere near that in their time in the AHL. The kid is only 22 years old and can easily bulk up, but I don't seem him playing on the checking line anyways.

If we have to lose someone to waivers, I'd rather keep him than I would Emmerton or Mursak.



Yes, plays a full season and can't even get to 60 points in the minors. Everyone that has any talent gets called up, which is way he plays the whole season there. As for bulking up, there is nothing he can do that will make him 6-2/205 which is the norm in the NHL for 2012. Those are the league avergaes-rounded off of course. Tatar is a nothing prospect. We are full of guys like him, and yet can't make any trades. You think there is a relationship there? Nobody wants our "propsects" other the Smith who we better not trade. Speedy Euor forwards that are under 6ft and less than 200 pounds are a dime a dozen. Every team has them. Yes they can help your AHL team, but most are far to small to help at the NHL level.


#2301480 Babcock and Holland want to keep Homer.

Posted by Richdg on 15 May 2012 - 12:17 PM

I agree we need to an upgrade over Emmerton, and we'll get it...Abdelkader. Next year our centers will be Dats, Z, Helm, Abby. Gaustad is not a terrible hockey player, no doubt about it. But he's terribly over priced for what he brings, especially considering he'll never crack our top three center positions. Even if he makes the same money as he did this year, that's still 2.5 million on our forth line. As for the other guys, I absolutely love Jason Arnott, but he's about a zillion years old and I don't see that any of the rest are any better than Abby. In my opinion we're all set at center, we've got to improve on the wings. Again, just my opinion and you're welcome to yours as well.

p.s. I know you weren't treating Gaustad as the messiah, your comment was just the most recent in months worth of comments, stemming back to the deadline, heralding him as some sort of missing link on this team. I didn't mean to make it seem like my criticism was pointed directly at you alone.



Zetterberg didn't even play C this year very often. he was the wing on Filppula's line. Moving him away from Dat hurt both.