Richdg

Brendan Smith played two years of AHL hockey and competed for his spot in two Red Wings training camps.  Schultz didn't.  Next.

That isn't schultz fault he hasn't played there yet. well it kinda is. But, when they did play at the same level on the same team, schultz was better. That is fact, not opinion. better numbers-not a lot, accross the board. Which if anything should make us more excited about going after him. Picking up another guy that is equal to or better than smith, and costing us nothing!!!! How can any logical fan not think this is a good move?

What Kipwinger said is true.  Schultz played hockey in the NCAA, and in a pretty weak league at that.  Sure, he wanted to get an education, and I don't fault him for that.  People still shouldn't look at those point totals and get a hard on over them.  He is a prospect at this stage, and nothing more.

So let me get his right. Smith plays at the same school, in the same league, and per those on this forum he is a can't miss prospect. schultz out performs Smith and he is to risky, overrated etc........ is this what you are trying to say? just want to make sure before I bust a gut laughing my ass off.

But the RW would never ever do anything illegal or underhanded. We have to much class for that after all.......... sorry, just couldn't help myself......

I can honestly see the Wings standing pat with 2 defensemen and a top six forward, and addressing any additional issues at the trade deadline.  There's no real reason to run out and spend money on a backup goalie or bottom six forward when either of those things could be had with very little effort later on.  Then again, I could be totally wrong, but I certainly won't be surprised if Holland only makes a couple of moves.  Especially if any of those moves involves picking up high end talent.

The backup goalie is entirely health related. Goalies with back issues are very worrying. TBH I expect this to be address real fast come July 1.

Wrong - I cannot remember one trade that involved a players rights prior to free agency that was contingent on signing.  

There have been some where the compensation would change if the player did or did not sign but the eve nif the player did not sign with the team there was some compensation going to the player's original team.  That is why we saw Dan Hamhuis' rights get traded twice in one off season a couple summers ago.

Wrong? how? Do you work in the NHL's office? just becasue you can't remember doesn't mean it does or does not happen. I don't know all of the by laws of the NHL. Just speaking for myself, i would not trade 1st round picks on a huge risk like not being able to sign a guy. maybe 3rd for the rights, and add an additional 1st if he signs. Just as an example.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? its absolutely Waddell's opinion, unless you can produce a link to Hollands comments.

Link

I'm fairly certain this is the article/blog you're talking about. Its George Malik using a Dave Waddell interview for the Windsor Star as the basis for his opinion piece.

The portions in big quotes aren't quotes from Holland, they are the portions that Malik has borrowed from Waddell's article. The quotes from Holland are in small quotations within the borrowed material.

At no point does he say we need X number of players, or what type of players we'd need. Just that he's open to exploring the trade market for the right players rights, that Joey MacDonald will be healthy next year, that he wants the team to be deeper and a little different and that he always feels pressure.

Listen not going to get into the quality of reporting in todays media. When things are quoted, the sourcing is terrible. so if I am wrong, so be it. But there have been other posts on this very forum over the past month saying the same thing, being attributed to Holland. Does it really matter if it is 4 or 5 players? Not at all. from day 1 it has been backup goalie, top 6 forward, bottom 6 forward with grit, and a top dman. The only real change was a second top dman.

If you read the story, that was from an interview that waddel did with Holland. those are quotes, not some writers opinions.

Now onto the list of questions....

1. we have 21 on the roster. Holland wants to add 5 or so new players. That makes 26. Roster is limited to 23. 3 need to go. Yes a Nyquist could go down to GR. same with Mcdonald. In theory emmerton and mursak. That would open up the roster space.
2. the idea of trading for rights has some merit. but who do you trade for those rights? Say it is now June 25th and the devils realiaze they can't resign parise. they decide to trade his rights. Who do we offer, that will keep us from being outbid? Where are the trade pieces?
3. if you let Quincey walk, which is an option, you have to get 2 UFA's to sign. there is no guarente that will happen, or if it does that we end up with someone better than Quincey. For example. is 31 year old Jackman better than Quincey, and who much more would we have to pay to get him?
4. Right now i am less interested in the names of players, we can all come up with long lists of personnel fav's that could help. The far more interesting part is the how do we get player x, y, and x etc.....

Adding some cap thoughts to this. As of today we have 25 million to spend. This could change, and I think it will. Downward. But let's stick with 25 for now. If we were to try and resign Helm, Abby, Filppula, Quincy, White and Howard now, how much does it cost? Keep in mind the RFA's are not currently counted towards our cap total. I would expect helm and Abby to cost 3-4 million to keep them. Quincey another 3.5-4 million. So somewhere between 7 and 8 for those 3 guys. Filppula is making 4 now, so to extend him we will need to add what 1-2 million more? Or do we wait and risk him getting big money next year on the UFA market? same questions for White and Howard? I would think White would cost 1 million more to extend, but Howard is going to take 2.5+ million to extend. So that takes 12-15 million to keep those guys around. But if we do this, we eat up 50-60% of our available cap money. Yes we could wait a year on Filppula, White and Howard. The only one I wouldn't wait on from that group is Howard. The rest can be replaced next year. Quincey is the hot debate right now. resign or walk? letting him walk gives us some extra cash to play with, but what happens if we miss out? Is Kindl ready to play 75+ games as the number 6 D?

Ok, nothing new about what he said. He understands that a tuned up is needed, so we don't have to go into a major rebuild. he publicly said we need to add 5 new players to the mix: 1 top six forward, 1 gritty bottom 6 forward, 2 d men, and a new backup goalie. Currently we have the following forwards: Dat, Z, Mule, Burt, cleary, filppula, abby, helm, miller, eaves, mursak, emmerton, and Nyquist. That is 13. 1 spot open. On D we have Kronwall, E, Quincey, Kindl, White and Smith. 6 guys, so 1 spot open. Goalie we have Howard and McDonald. 0 spots open. So with 2 open spots and 5 targets coming in, some players will be moved. Now the tougher part. Who goes, who comes in, and how?

Start at goalie, it is the easiest to answer. McDonald will be gone and a UFA will come in. McDonald has zero trade value, so either will be cut or become a throw in on a deal. There are several veterans goalies that could be had this year. No major changes in the roster, cap, or status of the team. If possible I would try to extend Howard now, rather than risk him next offseason.

Defensemen. This starts to get trickier. We have 6. yes Quincey could be allowed to walk, but that is a pretty big risk to take. There are 4 or5 real good UFA's, but then we have a fairly big drop off to the next group. We have to get 1 of those top 4 or 5 just to stand pat with Lidstrom retiring. I expect Quincey to be resigned. he can always be traded later on if we fail in our goal to sign 2 UFA Dmen. In a perfect world, we sign 1 of the Suter/garrison/Carle/Widemen group, keep Quincey to start the year, and sign Schultz. Trade Quincey once Schultz is ready. be it this year or next off season. The only other thing i would do with the BL corp is extend White now.


Forwards. This is far more challenging. There is one top 6 forward available via UFA: Parise. After him, most of the top UFA forwards are 2nd and 3rd line guys. Or they are C, and we are pretty deep at C if we so choose. Dat, Z, and Filppula is a pretty good 1-3 C rotation. helm at the 4th line C is perfect for the checking role. There are many names we can add for the 2nd and 3rd lines, that can be counted on for 20 goals. But where do we go if we miss out on parise? The million dollar question. If we fall to sign him, that means a trade. But where is the valueable players for us to trade? they are all on our roster already.

Trade value. Ok, of the 21 guys on the roster as of today, who can be moved, and who has value?

Dat, E, and Burt all have no trade clauses. Leaves only 18 names left.

Eaves (injury), Miller, mursak, Emmerton, Cleary (knee surgery), McDonald and Kindl really don't have much value for trades. keep in mind we need a top 6 forward.

That leaves a group of guys with value, that we would prefer to keep. Kronwall, White, Smith, Howard, Filppula, Z, Nyquist, Helm,  and Abby.

That leaves 2 guys left that everyone has mixed feelings about: Franzen and Quincey.

So, now what palyers do we use to go after a top 6 forward? The entire group of Eaves, Miller, Mursak, Emmerton, Cleary, McDonald, and Kindl isn't going to be enough. Even if you add Quncey to that mix, you still don't have enough to get a top 6 guy. Not to mention you would have to cancel the Griffins season, just to have enough body's to fill out the roster. If you use guys like Filppula, Z, and Kronwall, you are opening other holes up, that you now need to fill.

So that brings me back to the question. If we miss out on parise, where do we go? grab 3 20 goal per year guys? Try to swing a major trade and open up another hole? maybe even bank the money untill next year, which is a much deeper class?

When i joined this forum a month ago, i said right up front that i thought the Wings needed to find 8-10 new players over the next 2 off seasons. well Holland is now publicly talking about adding 5 new guys this year alone. That is the public comments. private could be even higher. The next year we could have another 4-5 openings. White, Cleary, Filppula, and Howard are all UFA's next season. Howard of course will/should be back. Same with Fillppula. others can go if we upgrade. But bringing things back to this offseason. There are only 2 real openings on the team currently. As of today we have the following forwards: Dat, Z, Franzen, Burt, Filppula, Abby, Helm, Cleary, Emmerton, maursk, Miller, Eaves, and Nyquist. That is 13 total. On D we have: Kronwall, Quincey, E, White, Smith, and Kindl. That is 6. At G we have Howard and McDonald. That is 2. So as of today, we are 1 forward short and 1 Dman short. This is where things get interesting. Holland is talking a top 6 forward, a bottom 6 forward, an offensive Dman, a solid tough Dman, and a backup goalie. We are not going to sign 5 UFA's. So who goes and who stays? Well 3 gus have no trade clauses per capgeek: dat, E, and Burt. So we know they will be here. But past that, we can see hundreds of possible options. from the really good to the really bad. we also have money to spend. 25 million right now. depending on trades made that could go up or down.
Now some opinions. I know you all could hardly wait......LOL

I expect 2 of the 5 moves that Holland is talking about coming via FA. Top D and backup G. There are several options at each of those spots. For a high scoring forward there is only one real option, that is Parise. But what if we don't get him? Do we have the pieces to trade and get a high scoring forward? Not sure on that, without moving another major piece and creating another hole. But this is were Holland will make or break this offseason. There are several very good young forwards that are in the last season of their contracts. Clarkson, Perry, Staal, Getzlev (spelling), Horton if healthy, Purcell, etc........ Many possible options can come to mind, but all costs a lot to make happen. Like I said, going to be very interesting......

The real question with Schultz is, who does he help us get/prevent us from getting. If we say have 8 million to improve our D, do we spend all of it on Suter or trade for Green and sign schultz. Just as an example. or sign garrison/carle/widemen and sign schultz. Signing a guy like Schultz by itself doesn't really help today. 2013 maybe. 2014 definatly. But that is were long term planning comes in. right now we only have 1 Rh D-white. This does hamper us in the breakout. far more than most would like to admit. We are also loaded with LH D: Kronwall, E, Quincey, Smith, and Kindl. Singing a schultz and then picking up a Green or Widemen gives us prefect balance on the blueline.
Kronwall and Widemen
E and White
Smith and Schultz
Kindl as the 7th

This then allows us to either let Quincey walk this year for picks, or to be traded for other needs.

7 points in 14 games with a 3rd pairing partner and 15 mins average a game, and was +3 in his stint....he beat out EVERYONE except for maybe Lids and Kronner, and Lids just retired so as far as i'm concerned, we have a top pairing of Smith-Kronwall unless Suter signs.  If he gets 25 mins a night and PP time, you can expect him to put up even more than .5 points per game.  Gotta do at least a little research before making excessively lame remarks like the mess above.

if he was so good, then why didn't he stay the full year? Again, he didn't beat anyone out. in fact we went out and picked up Quincey while Smith was healthy in GR. That is the point. Yes he has talent. But last season he wasn't able to take a job from Stuart, Kindl, E, White, Quincey, etc...... He did manage to beat out Commadore......

Good lord, guy, quit taking the steroids.  Good physical hockey is great - gooning it up isn't.  If you like that kind of rough stuff so much, just stick to cage fighting.

If you are such a wimp go watch soccer. As Micky points out time and time again, nothing repeat nothing gets a crowd more worked up than a good fight. Hell the great player in RW history Mr. Hockey himself has a term named after him. The Gordie Howe hat trick. Goal, assist, and a.......... FIGHT! if you don't like a good fight, might I suggest going to watch a polo match, or maybe some gymnastics. Perhaps ballet is in your future.

You're assuming all of us are thrilled Bert's here.  Not all of us practice a double standard.  And as evidenced by the hiring of Derian Hatcher & Todd Bertuzzi, we don't have a say in who wears the Winged Wheel and who doesn't.  The fact that some of us would prefer to not sign goons doesn't make us bad fans; it makes us decent people.

I find it odd that a guy with Vladdy in his moniker doesn't like ruff stuff. So you didn't like Probert, and Kocur and Mccarty and Shanahan and Lapointe etc..... either. keep in mind it was because of the last 4 that we started winning Cups again. I see the chickifacation of hockey is in full effect here....... Good lord guys, drop the gloves and grow a pair!

Wow...... A top 5 Dman that you guys don't wont because of some ruff stuff..... THIS IS HOCKEY!!!!!! It happens all the time. The really funny thing is, Burt commited the worst cheap shot in hockey history, and he has been here twice! But Weber "isn't up to pair for the Wings"..... OMG.....Some of you are as bad as Notre Dame fans.......

Wow....that, THAT (maybe u need to go read it again), is the most arrogant statement you ever seen? Apparently you havn't seen many ignorant fans as you so claim...I sir deserve no such prestigious awards I am but a loyal fan lol. But you may have claimed the overreaction of the year award haha.

1. Lol nobody said Holland was the god of hockey dude, exaggerate much? His track record has shown time and time again that we will be fine, he gets the job done. History and evidence points to this, and not the contrary. Saying Holland is going to have an epic fail and screw the team up this year is like saying Lidstrom is going to come out and play terrible defense all season. If there is one thing we can say for certain about Holland it's that he thinks 10 steps ahead into the future....he's no Holmgren....you really think he didn't anticipate and plan for the loss of Lidstrom? Guy's going to have multiple plans and tricks up his sleeve....which one he uses we have yet to see.

2. More exaggeration eh? I said we have one of the best prospect pools, not THE best. Shaman knows this and made fair evaluation of them. I also didn't say any of them will be a D, Z, or L.....And you don't need 3 of the best players in the league to win cups anyway. 1st round picks really don't matter, many 1st round picks and even top 10s never pan out.....plus the Wings are notorious for taking 1st round caliber players in the 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th. Half the players on our team right now would have gone in the top 20 of their draft classes if their was a redraft of their years.

3. Your hyperbole is amazing....of course Detroit is not the ONLY place FA's want to sign, don't be silly. However, we were voted by the players themselves as the team most desirable to play for. We are on the tops of lists for many FA's.

IIRC hpckeysfuture has us at 15th. Middle of the road. Most of which have yet to play a single professional game. This is not a deep talented pool.It is a bunch of names that we hope become prospects.