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#2529887 Hockey News: Red Wings D hunting

Posted by Playmaker on 03 July 2014 - 08:34 PM

Tyler Myers can go right out the window. They want a ridiculous amount for him (heard 4 starters and a high round pick) and honestly he's not that good. He's just tall.


Byfuglien is an interesting option. He fills a lot of holes on our backend (size, toughness, and a righty). Seems like a better trade partner than BUF who is in our division. 


Don't know much about Petry. 

I don't want to imagine Big Buff filling any holes on my backend.  Immature and sleep deprived is not a good combination.  

#2529884 TANK IT! 2014-2015 Season

Posted by Playmaker on 03 July 2014 - 08:13 PM

Would I rather be the Red Wings and make the playoffs every year, but not win the Cup every single year or be Edmonton, Buffalo, NYI, Florida, Carolina, Toronto, etc. who have "tanked it" for years now and are still no closer to a Stanley Cup than the Red Wings?  Damn right I would.


"Tanking it" is no guarantee of anything.  The Wings already re-tooled "on the fly" once and made it back to win one cup and almost a second. 


Edmonton, Carolina, Tampa, amongst other teams, all had Stanley Cups on their resume and quickly became non playoff teams.  Chicago and LA are more the exception than the rule.  Talent doesn't always translate into wins.  There is much more to it than that.


No team, in any sport, competes for a championship every single year for decades at a time. 

#2529848 Article on FAs and Red Wings

Posted by Playmaker on 03 July 2014 - 05:14 PM

well something is wrong.  I agree with some of you, why is Washington more attractive than Detroit? Last I read (not turning this into a city debate, but real quick) Washington had a higher crime and murder rate than Detroit, as do a lot of cities per capita.  We do have dynamic players to play with. Washington has Ovi, we have Pav.  We have THE best ownership in the NHL.  It all boils down to players don't want to play for Babcock and #firekenholland tries to skimp on the money when it comes to outside UFA's. Then he overpays his own guys just to keep them. Even with Niskanen, his offer was about $2M less than Washington's.  He always tries to skimp on that extra bit, which recently has become the difference and players know it and usually don't even consider his offers...I am surprised that Ryan Suter ever verbally agreed to play here.  Taking away his family in Minny, in the end he still got more $$$ and term in Minny over what Holland offered.  It starts with Babcock and ends with #firekenholland.  Players don't want to play here for those reasons...

I just don't think there's really any evidence that Mike Babcock is the problem.  I wouldn't think he'd have been asked back to coach Team Canada if there was an issue with getting along with players.  I really haven't read anywhere other than here that Babcock is a problem or that he can't get along with players.  


In Holland's defense, I think that the Parise/Suter buddying up as a package deal at the last minute had a lot to do with not signing Sutuer.  I think they tried for both, but obviously Suter was the main target.  Having two players signed for that long and for that amount with the lockout looming was a huge risk.  Even with that, Holland still made a really solid offer and Ilitch opened the checkbook, but he couldn't compete against the wives.  I think it's a lot like buying a house with multiple offers.  You can go in with your best offer, but you don't know what the other interested parties are offering.  You don't want to overbid and pay too much and you don't want to lowball either and lose out.


This year is more confusing. Boyle went somewhere for less money, but apparently he wanted the NYR and nothing else so long as they made an offer in the ballpark.  Not sure what the connection is. Ehrhoff's situation is odd also.  Maybe he just wanted a one year deal thinking he could get a better deal next year?  I don't know.  Same with Niskanen.  Did he go to Washington to be with Brooks Orpik?  Are they buddies?  Or was it just the place that offered the most money and the longest term?  

#2529839 Article on FAs and Red Wings

Posted by Playmaker on 03 July 2014 - 04:53 PM

I guess you'd have to ask the players.  I'd guess it's different for all players.  I'm sure for some, it's location.  For others, it's purely who offers the most cash/years for the most financial security.  Some want to play for a certain coach or with certain other players. 

#2529830 Quincey re-signed by DET. 2 yr s $4.25 mill AAV

Posted by Playmaker on 03 July 2014 - 04:22 PM

I don't know, while I'm not a Holland basher or a doom and gloom type, this just has the feel of Free Agency 2012, the sequel.  I just don't like the "we'll be better because we'll have less injuries" is just something you can't ever count on.  I don't think Kyle Quincey is the worst defenseman ever, but yet I still can't process that he's worth 4.5 million either.  Did anyone else even want him?  It was like with Samuelsson.  He got a two year deal for 3 million over 2 years and a NTC when it didn't seem as though there was a whole lot of league interest in him.  Same with Tootoo, Bertuzzi, Colaiocovo

#2529801 Article on FAs and Red Wings

Posted by Playmaker on 03 July 2014 - 02:50 PM


With the money these guys make, they aren't shoveling snow anyway unless they choose to.  This team will muddle through first round exits until there is a change in GM and coaching staff.  Let's face it....playing with Z and Pav (who are arguably on the decline) is not enough to lure the young talent here.  Plus they know that they'll likely be thrown on a 3rd or 4th line to maybe get 8-10 minutes a night. 


Ask yourself this (without the Red Wing blinders on) if you knew that you had a 6-10 year window, barring injuries, to make all the money you'd ever need and a chance to hoist the cup, would you want to make our current team your destinaton?

I think I'd be like Matt Moulson and go to Buffalo.  I mean, what a well run organization with great history and how about those mild Buffalo winters?  Or I think I'd be like Niskanen.  Not worry about money and go to a team on the cusp with such great fans and storied history like the Caps.  Or maybe I'd think like Ryan Miller and go to the Canucks.  Now there's a team that's got their s*** together!

#2529794 Article on FAs and Red Wings

Posted by Playmaker on 03 July 2014 - 02:21 PM

Look folks, free agents signed with Washington, Florida, Buffalo, NYI, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, etc.  Not all of those places have perfect living conditions, up and coming teams, or ideal management. 


I'm as disappointed as everyone else is, but I don't think it's one "thing" or that "all free agents" are avoiding Detroit because of the condition of the city or that the team is somehow not competitive any more.  If that's the case, would anyone sign with any of those other teams?


That said, I do think it may be a possibility that Ken Holland may be lowballing or may overestimate the "We're the Red Wings" card, but some of these things being speculated about seem so far out there. 


I also think it's far too early to be heaping praise upon Jim Nill and Steve Yzerman.  Their teams were both eliminated in the first round, just like the Red Wings.  Just because they made signings and trades doesn't necessarily mean they will pan out or look good a few years from now. 

#2527011 Ehrhoff or Niskanen

Posted by Playmaker on 29 June 2014 - 06:21 PM

I'm just hoping we get one or the other.  A top 4 defenseman with offensive skills that will cost us nothing off the roster is just what the doctor ordered.  An upgrade on the backend will make our forwards that much more productive and can only help Smith and DeKeyser.  Can't it be July 1st right now? 

#2526882 Kesler traded to Anaheim

Posted by Playmaker on 29 June 2014 - 12:04 PM

Also, Ken Holland did have a plan to replace Lidstrom.  It was signing Ryan Suter.   The fact that he and Parise were going to tag team at the last minute and make themselves a package deal took everyone off guard.  They really didn't have the room to sign them both and from my recollection, Minnesota wasn't even considered to be in the mix originally.  That seemed to have come out of no where and surprised most of the hockey pundits.  Should he be blamed for putting all his eggs in one basket.  Probably.  But, after Suter was signed, there wasn't much left on the Free Agent heap after that.  He was kind of stuck.  They didn't have much in the way of young players or draft picks to part with to get anyone of quality.  While it's easy to say he should have "planned ahead", Lidstrom was talking about returning to Sweden for at least 5 years before he ultimately did.  It also wouldn't have surprised anyone if Nick had played another 2 or 3 years.  At what point do you bring in a replacement for him?  Then if he doesn't leave you have cap issues. 


As I said before,  when Holland was signing all the "old guys" before he was considered a genius.  They were crafty veterans, not worthless old guys.  Holland could be accused of going to that well too often and not realizing that it isn't as effective when those guys have to play more prominent roles instead of being depth guys.  But, trying to strike that balance and keep under the cap probably isn't as easy as it sounds. 


I do agree that the blind loyalty has to stop at some point.  I will go postal for sure if Cleary gets any kind of a contract to return as a player.  I got the Samuelsson signing at the time, in that he had experience on the point and was RH and he was somewhat serviceable in VAN and FLA, but the 2 years at 3 million+NTC was insanity. 


I realize a lot of the under 30 fans are totally spoiled rotten and don't remember a time when the Wings weren't good and that it's inconceivable that they aren't challenging for the Cup every year.  That Holland was able to keep this team competitive and  re-tool and get a Cup in 2008 is quite the accomplishment.  Teams like the Red Wings, the New England Patriots, the San Antonio Spurs, the St. Louis Cardinals, that are able to be competitive year after year for extended periods are the exception not the rule.  It's those teams that are able to find diamonds in the rough, the late round draft picks, the other teams rejects, etc.  The system is set up to discourage dynasties and encourage parity.

#2526873 BUF to buy out Christian Ehrhoff

Posted by Playmaker on 29 June 2014 - 11:25 AM

Maybe Kenny can take her to Frankenmuth. 


Still rather have Niskanen due to age and RH shot, but it's nice that there's a really good consolation prize out there if the Wings miss out.

#2526869 Kesler traded to Anaheim

Posted by Playmaker on 29 June 2014 - 11:19 AM

In Holland's defense, he did get someone to replace Brad Stuart.  Kyle Quincey.  Yes, it turned out to be a horrible trade, but at the time Quincey had put together a few solid years with the Kings and Avs and it didn't seem out of the question he could be a #4 type defenseman. 

#2526863 BUF to buy out Christian Ehrhoff

Posted by Playmaker on 29 June 2014 - 11:07 AM

*hoping his wife isn't from Minnesota*

#2526721 Wings to have face to face with Matt Niskanen

Posted by Playmaker on 28 June 2014 - 08:35 PM

Nobody seemed to mind the hometown advantage when we got DeKeyser  ;)  Obviously the Wings will have to overpay.  If Holland makes a solid offer and he still picks Minnesota or another team, not much you can do.  Location, location, location.  I don't think Minnesota is really considered a contender just yet.  They are a playoff team, but that's about it. 

#2526664 Kesler traded to Anaheim

Posted by Playmaker on 28 June 2014 - 01:34 PM

 I'll try again.  Who were these top free agents that filled all these needs?  Mike Modano?  Dallas Drake?  Jason Williams?  Derian Hatcher?  Uwe Krupp?  Steve Duschene?


Hull and Robitaille?  Yeah, we had a great team and we were able to add a couple of aging veterans who could rack up stats playing with other equally good players.  There also was no cap then.  That's why we could have a guy like Robitaille be our 3rd line center. 


Marian Hossa?  We've discussed his situation.  Not typical.


Brian Rafalski.  Another aging vet and Michigan native who we had the space to sign after Mathieu Schnieder left.


Who are all these other big name free agents we signed in their prime that filled needs for us?


It's funny when Holland signed aging veterans before, he was a genius, and now he's an idiot for wanting old guys. 


If there's some major free agent I'm missing, clue me in. 


I hate to break it to you, but EVERY year is going to be a weak free agent market.  Players are signing long term deals, the "home team" gets an advantage and the cap levels the playing field on what other teams can offer. 


Enough of the countless signings and impact players and all those guys we used to get.  Name names.  Give examples. 

#2526495 Kesler traded to Anaheim

Posted by Playmaker on 28 June 2014 - 07:13 AM

I know you always get worked up about threads devolving into anti-Holland disasters, but as one who has become quite anti-Holland in recent years, I just wanted to point out that you're touching on one of the reasons I've lost faith in his ability to be an effective GM in Detroit.

Five years ago this team was still a destination franchise, and that afforded us an advantage in signing guys and leverage in trades. We are no longer a destination franchise, and we haven't been in several years. And given that we seem unwilling to overpay and still haven't proven that we're anything more than a playoff-maybe team that'll likely exit early, we seem to becoming less attractive of a destination every year.

Perhaps more than ever in the cap era, it's important to maintain that draw if you expect to be able to build from outside your organization. Despite the cliche line people drop nowadays about the importance of building from the draft, it's next to impossible to really put together a contender without making outside moves, especially if you don't plan on tanking for several years to hopefully get the chance to land even one guy who qualifies as truly elite talent in the draft amongst other core needs.

I get that we weren't going to land Parise and Suter. I gave Holland no s*** about that and still don't. I certainly don't care about not getting Kesler, as I've never been a Kesler slappy and it's obvious that we had no chance, so it'd be silly to get mad. What ultimately bothers me is that Holland had plenty of time early on to do more to shore of the core of this team, especially knowing Lidstrom was nearing the end and Stuart was likely gone at the end of his contract. When Rafalski retired, Holland should've done a lot more to immediately plug that hole, not because it's a hole that in and of itself needed to be plugged, but because in a year, you're losing at least one more core defenseman, and potentially your captain and one of the beat defensemen in the game, even past 40.

It doesn't take a genius to realize when you're in the best position to make a deal, and Holland let that time go by, like he's let other great opportunities slip by. He talks endlessly about prices being too high and not wanting to overpay, yet time and again, he's made bad deals for less effective, oftentimes older players, seemingly because of having a history with them. So instead of overpaying for stars that can make a difference, we overpay for mid-level talent that literally more often than not has been useless to us. And all the while, our image sinks further and further down.

I don't like the idea of overpaying any more than the next guy, but we wouldn't have had to if Holland had done more to maintain the core of this team when he was in the best position to do so. Furthermore, had we been more aggressive early on in our dip and gone harder after another guy that helps the team and raises your status, we'd likely be in a position to still be getting the better end of some of these trades and free agent signings.

It's not one thing that Holland's done that's caused me to lose faith in him, and truly, most of what shaped my perspective on him currently happened several years ago now. He's simply been in a free fall of bad decision-making since about 2009, and he seems completely unable to find a way to turn it around let alone slow it down. Has he been the victim of bad luck too? Sure. I don't think anyone expected the Weiss situation for example to go as poorly as it did, for example, but even with that, we ultimately made a good sized bet on a guy who we knew wasn't out of the woods on the injury front, so on some level, you almost have to question the signing, even if it's clearly in the hindsight category. Holland hasn't really done enough to buy the benefit of the doubt in recent years.

In the end, to me, I look back and I see that Holland clearly did absolutely nothing to maintain the status of the team when we lost three important players, and he's done nothing since to improve matters, and if anything, he has only made the situation worse with numerous blatantly embarrassing signings. Barring a home run of an off-season, now that we've been continually slipping for five years, I'm really at a point where I can't see Holland keeping his job past this season. Maybe the guy could still be great on another team, and maybe he'd be best taking on another role in the organization, advising someone who's more capable of making tough decisions and taking some chances that might have the potential to turn things around.

But any way you shake it, I just don't get how one can't objectively question on some level Ken Holland's current effectiveness given where we were five years ago and where we are now. When your status falls as far as ours has and we're as weak of a team as we are despite having a killer offensive core in Dats and Z, you've got to stop and ask what went wrong, and I don't see any way of not acknowledging Ken Holland's utter and complete inability to even come remotely close to maintaining the status we had for over twenty years.

When you can't even come up with a Stuart-level replacement after several years and you also lost Lidstrom and Rafalski, you're doing something wrong.

When you essentially throw cap space into the fire to burn by signing guys like Cleary and Sammy and Tootoo among others in recent years, when your defense is still in shambles after losing 3 of your 4 top guys, (not to mention the roster issues you create by having too many forwards) and you're still talking about not wanting to overpay for guys, you're doing something wrong.

It does suck that we aren't in a position to land favorable deals. It's a bummer. It is what it is now and there's no easy way out of the mess we're, and also no way that doesn't involve taking risks that my or may not come close to paying off, but we are in this position because Ken Holland's failed to stop, let alone even slow down the free fall this team is in. At some point you have to get serious and call a spade a spade and stop making excuses just because you can find a way to minimize the impact of individual deals or missed deals.

We're talking about a 5-year old trend of one way or another failing to slow the free fall.

5 years.

This is something that can't really be argued, and however you spin it, there's really no way to defend against it without suggesting that you're content to be mediocre. If that's enough for you, congratulations, but you shouldn't be shocked when Red Wings fans of all fans expect a little more out of their team than to limp into the playoffs on the weakening backs of Pav and Z or the adrenaline-fueled overachievements of Grand Rapids. I called the Holland naysaying crazy talk 4-5 years ago too, but at this point, you're just not being objective at all about the big picture if you're still defending Holland's current effectiveness.

I'll ask again, and maybe get an answer from some of the "Not a destination franchise" conspiracy theorists.  I think fans think if they repeat it enough times it will make it so.  The facts just don't support it.


Who are all these high quality players who have refused to play for the Red Wings?  Kesler didn't have Boston on his list, does that make them not a "Destination Franchise".  He didn't have the LA Kings,  you know the team that's won two of the past three Stanley Cups?  I guess they aren't a destination franchise either.  


All the same fans bemoaning the loss of getting Kesler were the same ones whining we didn't get Bobby Ryan.  How'd that work out for Ottawa?  Made them a contender, eh?  Luckily for Ryan, they were a destination franchise with a history of winning and a bright future.  


Who were all these big name free agents that the Wings signed year in and year out before?  


Do I like all the moves that Holland has made?  No.  But fans expect Holland to keep all the youth, keep all the stars, and still trade for top quality talent and sign every free agent on the market all while having low draft picks year after year.  


No franchise, in any sport, is a contender every single year for decades at a time.   Get over it.