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Playmaker

Member Since 02 Nov 2012
Offline Last Active Yesterday, 02:45 PM
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#2526721 Wings to have face to face with Matt Niskanen

Posted by Playmaker on 28 June 2014 - 08:35 PM

Nobody seemed to mind the hometown advantage when we got DeKeyser  ;)  Obviously the Wings will have to overpay.  If Holland makes a solid offer and he still picks Minnesota or another team, not much you can do.  Location, location, location.  I don't think Minnesota is really considered a contender just yet.  They are a playoff team, but that's about it. 




#2526664 Kesler traded to Anaheim

Posted by Playmaker on 28 June 2014 - 01:34 PM

 I'll try again.  Who were these top free agents that filled all these needs?  Mike Modano?  Dallas Drake?  Jason Williams?  Derian Hatcher?  Uwe Krupp?  Steve Duschene?

 

Hull and Robitaille?  Yeah, we had a great team and we were able to add a couple of aging veterans who could rack up stats playing with other equally good players.  There also was no cap then.  That's why we could have a guy like Robitaille be our 3rd line center. 

 

Marian Hossa?  We've discussed his situation.  Not typical.

 

Brian Rafalski.  Another aging vet and Michigan native who we had the space to sign after Mathieu Schnieder left.

 

Who are all these other big name free agents we signed in their prime that filled needs for us?

 

It's funny when Holland signed aging veterans before, he was a genius, and now he's an idiot for wanting old guys. 

 

If there's some major free agent I'm missing, clue me in. 

 

I hate to break it to you, but EVERY year is going to be a weak free agent market.  Players are signing long term deals, the "home team" gets an advantage and the cap levels the playing field on what other teams can offer. 

 

Enough of the countless signings and impact players and all those guys we used to get.  Name names.  Give examples. 




#2526495 Kesler traded to Anaheim

Posted by Playmaker on 28 June 2014 - 07:13 AM

I know you always get worked up about threads devolving into anti-Holland disasters, but as one who has become quite anti-Holland in recent years, I just wanted to point out that you're touching on one of the reasons I've lost faith in his ability to be an effective GM in Detroit.

Five years ago this team was still a destination franchise, and that afforded us an advantage in signing guys and leverage in trades. We are no longer a destination franchise, and we haven't been in several years. And given that we seem unwilling to overpay and still haven't proven that we're anything more than a playoff-maybe team that'll likely exit early, we seem to becoming less attractive of a destination every year.

Perhaps more than ever in the cap era, it's important to maintain that draw if you expect to be able to build from outside your organization. Despite the cliche line people drop nowadays about the importance of building from the draft, it's next to impossible to really put together a contender without making outside moves, especially if you don't plan on tanking for several years to hopefully get the chance to land even one guy who qualifies as truly elite talent in the draft amongst other core needs.

I get that we weren't going to land Parise and Suter. I gave Holland no s*** about that and still don't. I certainly don't care about not getting Kesler, as I've never been a Kesler slappy and it's obvious that we had no chance, so it'd be silly to get mad. What ultimately bothers me is that Holland had plenty of time early on to do more to shore of the core of this team, especially knowing Lidstrom was nearing the end and Stuart was likely gone at the end of his contract. When Rafalski retired, Holland should've done a lot more to immediately plug that hole, not because it's a hole that in and of itself needed to be plugged, but because in a year, you're losing at least one more core defenseman, and potentially your captain and one of the beat defensemen in the game, even past 40.

It doesn't take a genius to realize when you're in the best position to make a deal, and Holland let that time go by, like he's let other great opportunities slip by. He talks endlessly about prices being too high and not wanting to overpay, yet time and again, he's made bad deals for less effective, oftentimes older players, seemingly because of having a history with them. So instead of overpaying for stars that can make a difference, we overpay for mid-level talent that literally more often than not has been useless to us. And all the while, our image sinks further and further down.

I don't like the idea of overpaying any more than the next guy, but we wouldn't have had to if Holland had done more to maintain the core of this team when he was in the best position to do so. Furthermore, had we been more aggressive early on in our dip and gone harder after another guy that helps the team and raises your status, we'd likely be in a position to still be getting the better end of some of these trades and free agent signings.

It's not one thing that Holland's done that's caused me to lose faith in him, and truly, most of what shaped my perspective on him currently happened several years ago now. He's simply been in a free fall of bad decision-making since about 2009, and he seems completely unable to find a way to turn it around let alone slow it down. Has he been the victim of bad luck too? Sure. I don't think anyone expected the Weiss situation for example to go as poorly as it did, for example, but even with that, we ultimately made a good sized bet on a guy who we knew wasn't out of the woods on the injury front, so on some level, you almost have to question the signing, even if it's clearly in the hindsight category. Holland hasn't really done enough to buy the benefit of the doubt in recent years.

In the end, to me, I look back and I see that Holland clearly did absolutely nothing to maintain the status of the team when we lost three important players, and he's done nothing since to improve matters, and if anything, he has only made the situation worse with numerous blatantly embarrassing signings. Barring a home run of an off-season, now that we've been continually slipping for five years, I'm really at a point where I can't see Holland keeping his job past this season. Maybe the guy could still be great on another team, and maybe he'd be best taking on another role in the organization, advising someone who's more capable of making tough decisions and taking some chances that might have the potential to turn things around.

But any way you shake it, I just don't get how one can't objectively question on some level Ken Holland's current effectiveness given where we were five years ago and where we are now. When your status falls as far as ours has and we're as weak of a team as we are despite having a killer offensive core in Dats and Z, you've got to stop and ask what went wrong, and I don't see any way of not acknowledging Ken Holland's utter and complete inability to even come remotely close to maintaining the status we had for over twenty years.

When you can't even come up with a Stuart-level replacement after several years and you also lost Lidstrom and Rafalski, you're doing something wrong.

When you essentially throw cap space into the fire to burn by signing guys like Cleary and Sammy and Tootoo among others in recent years, when your defense is still in shambles after losing 3 of your 4 top guys, (not to mention the roster issues you create by having too many forwards) and you're still talking about not wanting to overpay for guys, you're doing something wrong.

It does suck that we aren't in a position to land favorable deals. It's a bummer. It is what it is now and there's no easy way out of the mess we're, and also no way that doesn't involve taking risks that my or may not come close to paying off, but we are in this position because Ken Holland's failed to stop, let alone even slow down the free fall this team is in. At some point you have to get serious and call a spade a spade and stop making excuses just because you can find a way to minimize the impact of individual deals or missed deals.

We're talking about a 5-year old trend of one way or another failing to slow the free fall.

5 years.

This is something that can't really be argued, and however you spin it, there's really no way to defend against it without suggesting that you're content to be mediocre. If that's enough for you, congratulations, but you shouldn't be shocked when Red Wings fans of all fans expect a little more out of their team than to limp into the playoffs on the weakening backs of Pav and Z or the adrenaline-fueled overachievements of Grand Rapids. I called the Holland naysaying crazy talk 4-5 years ago too, but at this point, you're just not being objective at all about the big picture if you're still defending Holland's current effectiveness.

I'll ask again, and maybe get an answer from some of the "Not a destination franchise" conspiracy theorists.  I think fans think if they repeat it enough times it will make it so.  The facts just don't support it.

 

Who are all these high quality players who have refused to play for the Red Wings?  Kesler didn't have Boston on his list, does that make them not a "Destination Franchise".  He didn't have the LA Kings,  you know the team that's won two of the past three Stanley Cups?  I guess they aren't a destination franchise either.  

 

All the same fans bemoaning the loss of getting Kesler were the same ones whining we didn't get Bobby Ryan.  How'd that work out for Ottawa?  Made them a contender, eh?  Luckily for Ryan, they were a destination franchise with a history of winning and a bright future.  

 

Who were all these big name free agents that the Wings signed year in and year out before?  

 

Do I like all the moves that Holland has made?  No.  But fans expect Holland to keep all the youth, keep all the stars, and still trade for top quality talent and sign every free agent on the market all while having low draft picks year after year.  

 

No franchise, in any sport, is a contender every single year for decades at a time.   Get over it.  




#2526096 Wings to have face to face with Matt Niskanen

Posted by Playmaker on 27 June 2014 - 11:43 AM

Let's not forget that Suter actually wanted to come to Detroit, but the wives and Parise signing forced his hand last minute.

Happy wife, happy life.  




#2526041 Wings to have face to face with Matt Niskanen

Posted by Playmaker on 27 June 2014 - 06:02 AM

Alfie signing a top UFA one? *lol* it was a good signing nothing more nothing less. Weiss signed after being out for almost 6 months..

 

Niskanen would easily be the biggest offseason signing, the defense needs to become better and not all of these GR guys are going to make it to the big club, some will get t raded others just aren't good enough.

 

 

6 years 33 million should get the job done, the cap is risin

You're not comprehending.  Whether you like it or not, Stephen Weiss and Daniel Alfredsson were likely considered #1 and #2 of a weak free agent market. (Val Filppula could be in the mix as well, but he was leaving the Wings)  Whether you think they are good players or not is neither here nor there.  Other teams wanted these guys, (Boston was rumored to be interested in Alfie) and they both signed with Detroit.  

 

Again, who are all these other top free agents that Holland pursued that shunned the Wings?  Even Parise and Suter didn't reject the Wings due to money or going to a "contender".  They went to the Minnestoa Wild.  You know, that storied franchise in that swanky urban city with a chance to win the Cup every year.

 

Pre salary cap, free agents came to the Wings because Ilitch could and would offer the most money.  Now with the salary cap, that advantage has been taken away.  It has nothing to do with Holland's abilities or Detroit not being a "contender" or a destination city.  

 

The Wings don't go after many free agents, but when they do, more often than not, they get their man.  Parise and Suter were the exception, not the rule.  




#2525949 Wings to have face to face with Matt Niskanen

Posted by Playmaker on 26 June 2014 - 07:04 PM

Last umm what 8 years? 6 years?

Like who?  Everyone acts like because we lost out on Parise and Suter, which was solely due to geography, that we somehow aren't a "destination" team.  Name all these top free agents that Holland pursued that the Wings didn't get.

 

Weiss and Alfredsson were the top two UFA's last year and the Wings signed them both.  Then before that every other team in the league was salivating over Danny DeKeyser.  Who got him?  Oh, yeah, that team no one wants to go to.  




#2525022 Kaylee G Future and the Red Wings

Posted by Playmaker on 21 June 2014 - 11:49 AM

The person responding from the Red Wings site was likely an intern who wanted the job because they were a fan of the Red Wings and either wants to marry a Red Wing or is a Red Wing wannabe.

 

Sports Marketing 101:  Never alienate any fans, ever.  Official sites like this, if they reply at all, would reply with something like "Thanks for being a fan of the Detroit Red Wings, Kaylee!"

 

She is clearly a young girl and girls that age say stuff like that. I'm pretty sure most of them turn out to be productive adults.  The follow up of "Girls and Boys need to be taught that a woman has more value than physical appearance".  WTF does that have to do with her wanting to marry a Red Wing?  Maybe she was thinking Datsyuk or Zetterberg will marry her because she's a smart girl?  So this clown on the Red Wings site thinks it's up to them to offer advice?    If some teenage girl wants to fantasize that she's going to marry a Red Wing or Justin Beiber or whoever, let them be.  No need to embarrass them publicly.  Too many horror stories of kids who've taken internet embarrassment personally.  Hope the intern was canned.




#2524784 Wings officially have vacancy in asst coach spot

Posted by Playmaker on 20 June 2014 - 08:14 AM

How many of the good or great coaches past or present are former star players?  I don't know why so many fans think that good player=good coach. 

 

Chelios has a cushy front office job now.  Why would he want to go through the grind and travel demands that come with being a coach?  Same with Lidstrom.  He left because he wanted to return to Sweden and spend time with his family?  Why would he want to come back and coach? 


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#2524780 Dan Cleary may return...sigh

Posted by Playmaker on 20 June 2014 - 07:51 AM

I get that the Wings want to treat their veteran players a certain way, but at some point, they have to put the needs of the team first.  The re-signed him last year, knowing they had no cap or roster space.  It hurt the team and other players.  It turned out exactly how we all thought it would.  So he has another unproductive, injury plagued year and it's like hey, lets give him a contract?  It's mind boggling.  This isn't a team lacking leadership or a veteran presence.  Give him a figure head scouting job or off ice position, I don't care.  But any talk of a contract of any kind is complete insanity.  He was a semi decent player for a few years.  This isn't Steve Yzerman or Nick Lidstrom we're talking about.  The Wings owe him nothing. 




#2524666 Dan Cleary may return...sigh

Posted by Playmaker on 19 June 2014 - 06:26 PM

I don't care if they pinkie swore on it.  It's business.  If he wants to offer him an off ice position, be my guest.  For two seasons in a row to think Cleary is finally gone only to have the hope dashed again.  It's beyond comprehension.  Not a two way deal, a one way deal, not any deal.  Not in a box or with a fox.  I do not like that Dan I am.




#2523463 The Franzen Hate.

Posted by Playmaker on 11 June 2014 - 06:46 AM

I don't care who you are or what you do for a living, no one, absolutely no one, gives "110 percent" every single day, every single minute at their job and never makes a mistake.  Physicians don't, that's why there is malpractice suits.  Engineers don't, look at the mess with GM and all the other recalls with the auto companies.

 

The difference is, most of us don't have cameras watching EVERY thing we do.  Even the greatest of players, Datsyuk and Zetterberg have an off night here or there where they aren't on the top of their game.  Yes, Franzen is more noticeable than others and the difference between his "off" and on" is much greater, but the silly sports cliche that guys give "110%" every night is a fallacy.  




#2520590 ECSF : (4) Montreal Canadiens vs. (1) Boston Bruins

Posted by Playmaker on 15 May 2014 - 07:20 AM

Wait a minute, thought Boston was the perfect team, had toughness, an elite goalie, "heart" and character, the perfect GM,and they're going home ?  Just goes to show you just never know and even the perfect teams don't always win.




#2519892 Regner: Next year could be Babcock's last

Posted by Playmaker on 09 May 2014 - 05:23 PM

I wouldn't really care if Tom Renney goes, I'd actually rather he did leave.    He was brought in specifically to improve the PP and hasn't done that.  I think bringing in new assistants has kept things fresh and brought new ideas. 




#2519857 Regner: Next year could be Babcock's last

Posted by Playmaker on 09 May 2014 - 01:54 PM

Next year might be Babcock's last...........or it might not be.  It's basically, it's the offseason and there's not much else to talk about, so let's get some conversation going. 




#2519145 Wings will buy out Tootoo, not Franzen.

Posted by Playmaker on 04 May 2014 - 06:36 AM

 

There have definitely been stretches where Franzen hasn't been giving all of his effort. Not gonna stick up for him for that ever. The thing is, even when he is working his ass off but not scoring, he is still accused of floating. He has become that much of a whipping boy that not scoring automatically means he is not trying. I saw a hard working Franzen in the playoffs. He wasn't driving the net as much as he should have, but he was still skating. If he works, I have no issue with him being here. Because even if he isn't scoring, he is responsible in his own end. It is just a matter of having enough scoring depth that the team doesn't absolutely depend on him going into beast mode to win. If the team has that depth, his contract does not hinder the team one bit. Also, his dry spell this season was not nearly as bad as it was the season before last. IF he can avoid a head injury this coming season, I have no doubt he can be a very effective player for the team. It is just a matter of managing expectations of him. 

 

Even when Datsyuk came back from a concussion, he was hesitant to get into the dirty areas for a nice while. As someone who has had my bell rung when I was a teen, I can't really fault someone for not getting too involved with the rough stuff. Especially in a professional sport at that level. I still think next season when he is good and healthy again, the coaching staff should park him in front of the net on the PP. 

But this is nothing new for Franzen.  I've been holding out hope for several seasons now, making excuses for him and defending him, and ever year its lather, rinse, repeat.  

 

Is it a concussion or anxiety/mental illness or laziness, I really don't know.  But watching him out on the ice, he looks like he's just out of gas.  He looks so tired and lethargic, the way he skates, the way he shoots the puck, the way he hits.  There just seems to be no energy behind anything he does.   What frustrates me the most is when he gets knocked down or falls down.  While other players pop back up in an instant, it takes Franzen forever to get back to his feet, and even longer to get back into the play.  I find myself screaming at the TV.

 

I don't think that it's criticism for when he's not scoring goals.  No one gives Helm s*** when he doesn't score.  Because he's noticeable and is involved in the play and plays hard every shift.  Datsyuk and Zetterberg seem to have pointless or goalless streaks every year, but no one ever accuses them of being lazy or uninterested.

 

I agree 100% with what Babcock said about how Franzen handles the media.  Okay, we get it, you're shy and what not, but so is Datsyuk, so was Brad Stuart.  But you don't have to say idiotic things when you do talk.  Take some responsibility, act like you care, show an ounce of passion or something.  Stop with the "I'm not a goal scorer crap".  His attitude off the ice seems to reflect his play on the ice.  Fans would be much more apt to give Franzen the benefit of the doubt if he at least acted like he cared.