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#2530836 Article on FAs and Red Wings

Posted by Playmaker on 09 July 2014 - 01:31 PM


 Sorry but I have to correct you on that:


In his first-GM season Yzerman and the Tampa Bay Lightning reached the Eastern Conferecne Finals, only being stopped but a juggernaut named Boston.


In 4 years Yzerman has built up their AHL franchise, created competition for spots at the pro level what more could he have done ? Win the cup? Sure but it's not like Tampa is that good right now.


I know that Holland has done a lot of great things for this organisation but at some point every GM becomes to emotionally attached to his players (good examples are Tallon, Burke) plus he has also become unwilling to take risks. If someone offers you Volchenkov at 1 mill and then Quincey at 4,25 per ? The decision is easy and I don#t need GM experience to make such an easy decision.  When it comes down to the point where top UFAs are taking less (term and lengthwise) to sign elsewhere, all alarm bells should start to ring 24/7, because it's basically telling an organization two  things:


1. you are not good enough to win the cup

2. your future is bleak at best


At that point a GM should do everything in his power to guide the ship in the right direction, talk to agents about the perception and how to correct it. Desperate moves aren't going to cut it.


as for Detroit not being a destination anymore:

Well they didn't make Ehrhoffs final list nor Niskanen's so that should be telling.


1.  They wanted to be near friends and family

2.  They wanted to be with a last place team like Washington that's in the middle of a major rebuild

3.  They love the Minnesota weather


Weiss, Alfredsson and DeKeyser were top sought after free agents who DID sign here.  




It sounds like the gist of your first paragraph is that "he tried, and they didn't come, so there's nothing that could have been done".  In which case, we should blame fate, and nothing else since player acquisition is clearly this much of a crap shoot. 


It sounds like the gist of your second paragraph is "other teams lose in the first round too, so we should wait and see if we get better next year".  Which entirely ignores the fact that Tampa breezed into the playoffs and made moves to get better, and Dallas breezed into the playoffs (in a harder conference) and made moves to get better, while Detroit stumbled into the playoffs (two years in a row) and did nothing to get better.


I'd be fine with the "sometimes making moves isn't better than standing pat" argument if we already had a really good team, and internal growth might put us over the top without costing assets.  But we're not a really good team.  We're a team who (narrowly) outpaced teams like Washington and Toronto for a playoff spot the last two years.  What level is internal growth going to bring us up to?  Columbus level good? 


But you can't make em come to Detroit eh?


Dallas just got Jason Spezza for Alex Chaisson, a prospect, and a pic.  We can offer better packages than that.  So, A) we don't offer, B) if we offered, they'd come, C) we do offer, they wouldn't come (in which case there IS some reason to believe guys are actively avoiding Detroit). 


A) Ottawa wouldn't trade within the division

B) Holland wasn't parting with assets for a position that wasn't a need

C) Didn't want to add a 7 million dollar a year rental when there are other needs the team has.


Or maybe Holland just sucks and the Wings should have had won the Cup for 15 years straight.  

#2530746 Article on FAs and Red Wings

Posted by Playmaker on 09 July 2014 - 09:36 AM


Wait, I'm confused.  Is you point that there was absolutely, 100%, nothing that Ken Holland could have done to improve this team other than sign Kyle Quincey? Because if not then it's a moot point. 


The fact that guys would rather sign to play with their buddies,or sign for less money, or sign with non-playoff teams, than sign with your team and get paid to win is a problem.  It says that either A) you're not winning, B) you're not paying, or both. 

There were things he could have done and it seems like he made a reasonable effort to do so.  I wanted Niskanen as much as everyone else did.  But it isn't like he's Ryan Suter.  If Holland had given him a 7 year deal at 6 million per season, would that sparkle with everyone?  Half the fan base would have ripped him for it.  Unfortunately, as teams like Philly are finding out, you have to think of today, but keep an eye on the future as well and it seems like more often than not, these long term free agent deals come back to bite you in the ass.    If we had signed Niskanen and the three young D prospects all turn out to be good, how are you going to pay them all?  Not to mention DeKeyser and all the young forwards who will be due for a big pay day if they are successful.  It's a balancing act.  I'm not in love with every move Ken Holland makes, but I also don't think there's some league wide mandate to avoid the Wings either or that they're so awful and the future is so bleak that free agents are signing else where.    


While everyone is lauding Steve Yzerman for his GM abilities, he still hasn't gotten his team past the first round of the playoffs.  Jim Nill either (though he's only had one season)  Making moves isn't necessarily better than standing pat.  We'll see in the years to come.  

#2530744 TANK IT! 2014-2015 Season

Posted by Playmaker on 09 July 2014 - 09:26 AM


Egads, I'm not going to reveal how old *I* was at the time of the Oates trade. :)


Don't forget Kevin McClelland. He came along with Carson. What a bargain!

It just goes to show with trades that you just never know.  Jimmy Carson was a proven commodity.  He was a three time (or close to it) 50 goal scorer and he was still in his early 20's.  For whatever, reason, be it the hometown pressure or what not, he could never recapture his scoring touch.  The Wings liked Adam Graves and didn't want to part with him, but he was a young grinder with the Wings at the time and Carson was a budding superstar.  I don't know of many who wouldn't have made that trade.


The Oates thing was entirely different.  I heard an interview with Jacques Demers after he had left Detroit.  Want to say it was with Mitch Albom when he was still doing the sports show on Sunday Nights.  In any event, a law enforcement official contacted the Wings and told them Oates' name was listed in some kind of "black book" of a prominent drug dealer.  With all the Probert stuff going down, the Wings freaked out and quickly dumped Oates for whatever they could get.  Turned out to be a bogus report, but it wasn't purely a hockey move.

#2530703 Article on FAs and Red Wings

Posted by Playmaker on 08 July 2014 - 07:50 PM

So why did Suter and Parise go to Minnesota?  Because they are so competitive?  Did Niskanen go to Washington because they are Cup finalists?  Moulson went to Buffalo because they're making so many good moves? Seems not to matter how much evidence to the contrary, there's going to continue to be the "Detroit's not a destination because of...." conspiracy theory.

Oh, and Patrick Eaves?  LOL  He "chose" to go to the Stars?   They scooped him up off the scrap heap after being let loose twice in the past year and is being paid like 500k on a one year deal.  Give me a break

#2530076 Hockey News: Red Wings D hunting

Posted by Playmaker on 05 July 2014 - 06:19 AM

Red Wings and Hawks doing a trade ? Never!


That's also why a guy like Seabrook would never sign here even if he becomes UFA and we throw a lot of money at him.


I just went to the Winnipeg forum and from what I've read it seems like Cheveldayoff is a poor version of Holland (reluctant to lose a trade, not willing to take risks and doesn't change too much), so I think this two teams would be horrible trade partners. Although Trouba, Scheifele, and especially Bogosian, Wheeler would be really nice pieces.


I still think the only remaining options, which make sense are Tyler Myers or Keith Yandle. If their asking prices are too high stay pat and gun for a great draftpick in an excellent draft class.

Right, its not like we'd ever trade for a despised Chicago native and icon in Chris Chelios and then have him stay in Detroit for years and work for the Red Wings or anything  ;)  That would never happen!

#2530053 Can Z and Pav do anything to protest? (not that they would)

Posted by Playmaker on 04 July 2014 - 09:24 PM

Interesting because I was fearful of the same thing. There is nothing that can force Datsyuk to return to play. Put yourself in his shoes. he is wealthy, his wife and kids live in Russia, he could easily replace the RW's salary by staying there and playing. He clearly was unhappy with the end of the year/direction of the team/etc... he is also 35 and getting beat up. He voiced his displeasure which is COMPLETELY out of charactor for him. If we still are the same team come August first, it would be really hard to get on a plan and come back.

I have mentioned this before. If you wan to force Babcok, Z, and Datsyuk out, could you write a better script to do it? Why would anyone of those 3 want to return/stay long term? Thios is very thin ice Holland is skating on and we the fans could be the ones to pay for his "liking our team".

His ex-wife and oldest daughter live in Russia.  His new wife and newborn daughter live here.  Zetterberg said in the HBO special that he and his wife plan to make the Detroit their home after he retires.  


Alexei Kovalev just retired from a Swiss B League.  These guys aren't like us.  They play because they love the game on a completely different level.  I expect them both to play until their bodies are no longer able and continue to be the ultimate professionals they always have been.

#2530005 Hockey News: Red Wings D hunting

Posted by Playmaker on 04 July 2014 - 05:25 PM


#2529887 Hockey News: Red Wings D hunting

Posted by Playmaker on 03 July 2014 - 08:34 PM

Tyler Myers can go right out the window. They want a ridiculous amount for him (heard 4 starters and a high round pick) and honestly he's not that good. He's just tall.


Byfuglien is an interesting option. He fills a lot of holes on our backend (size, toughness, and a righty). Seems like a better trade partner than BUF who is in our division. 


Don't know much about Petry. 

I don't want to imagine Big Buff filling any holes on my backend.  Immature and sleep deprived is not a good combination.  

#2529884 TANK IT! 2014-2015 Season

Posted by Playmaker on 03 July 2014 - 08:13 PM

Would I rather be the Red Wings and make the playoffs every year, but not win the Cup every single year or be Edmonton, Buffalo, NYI, Florida, Carolina, Toronto, etc. who have "tanked it" for years now and are still no closer to a Stanley Cup than the Red Wings?  Damn right I would.


"Tanking it" is no guarantee of anything.  The Wings already re-tooled "on the fly" once and made it back to win one cup and almost a second. 


Edmonton, Carolina, Tampa, amongst other teams, all had Stanley Cups on their resume and quickly became non playoff teams.  Chicago and LA are more the exception than the rule.  Talent doesn't always translate into wins.  There is much more to it than that.


No team, in any sport, competes for a championship every single year for decades at a time. 

#2529848 Article on FAs and Red Wings

Posted by Playmaker on 03 July 2014 - 05:14 PM

well something is wrong.  I agree with some of you, why is Washington more attractive than Detroit? Last I read (not turning this into a city debate, but real quick) Washington had a higher crime and murder rate than Detroit, as do a lot of cities per capita.  We do have dynamic players to play with. Washington has Ovi, we have Pav.  We have THE best ownership in the NHL.  It all boils down to players don't want to play for Babcock and #firekenholland tries to skimp on the money when it comes to outside UFA's. Then he overpays his own guys just to keep them. Even with Niskanen, his offer was about $2M less than Washington's.  He always tries to skimp on that extra bit, which recently has become the difference and players know it and usually don't even consider his offers...I am surprised that Ryan Suter ever verbally agreed to play here.  Taking away his family in Minny, in the end he still got more $$$ and term in Minny over what Holland offered.  It starts with Babcock and ends with #firekenholland.  Players don't want to play here for those reasons...

I just don't think there's really any evidence that Mike Babcock is the problem.  I wouldn't think he'd have been asked back to coach Team Canada if there was an issue with getting along with players.  I really haven't read anywhere other than here that Babcock is a problem or that he can't get along with players.  


In Holland's defense, I think that the Parise/Suter buddying up as a package deal at the last minute had a lot to do with not signing Sutuer.  I think they tried for both, but obviously Suter was the main target.  Having two players signed for that long and for that amount with the lockout looming was a huge risk.  Even with that, Holland still made a really solid offer and Ilitch opened the checkbook, but he couldn't compete against the wives.  I think it's a lot like buying a house with multiple offers.  You can go in with your best offer, but you don't know what the other interested parties are offering.  You don't want to overbid and pay too much and you don't want to lowball either and lose out.


This year is more confusing. Boyle went somewhere for less money, but apparently he wanted the NYR and nothing else so long as they made an offer in the ballpark.  Not sure what the connection is. Ehrhoff's situation is odd also.  Maybe he just wanted a one year deal thinking he could get a better deal next year?  I don't know.  Same with Niskanen.  Did he go to Washington to be with Brooks Orpik?  Are they buddies?  Or was it just the place that offered the most money and the longest term?  

#2529839 Article on FAs and Red Wings

Posted by Playmaker on 03 July 2014 - 04:53 PM

I guess you'd have to ask the players.  I'd guess it's different for all players.  I'm sure for some, it's location.  For others, it's purely who offers the most cash/years for the most financial security.  Some want to play for a certain coach or with certain other players. 

#2529830 Quincey re-signed by DET. 2 yr s $4.25 mill AAV

Posted by Playmaker on 03 July 2014 - 04:22 PM

I don't know, while I'm not a Holland basher or a doom and gloom type, this just has the feel of Free Agency 2012, the sequel.  I just don't like the "we'll be better because we'll have less injuries" is just something you can't ever count on.  I don't think Kyle Quincey is the worst defenseman ever, but yet I still can't process that he's worth 4.5 million either.  Did anyone else even want him?  It was like with Samuelsson.  He got a two year deal for 3 million over 2 years and a NTC when it didn't seem as though there was a whole lot of league interest in him.  Same with Tootoo, Bertuzzi, Colaiocovo

#2529801 Article on FAs and Red Wings

Posted by Playmaker on 03 July 2014 - 02:50 PM


With the money these guys make, they aren't shoveling snow anyway unless they choose to.  This team will muddle through first round exits until there is a change in GM and coaching staff.  Let's face it....playing with Z and Pav (who are arguably on the decline) is not enough to lure the young talent here.  Plus they know that they'll likely be thrown on a 3rd or 4th line to maybe get 8-10 minutes a night. 


Ask yourself this (without the Red Wing blinders on) if you knew that you had a 6-10 year window, barring injuries, to make all the money you'd ever need and a chance to hoist the cup, would you want to make our current team your destinaton?

I think I'd be like Matt Moulson and go to Buffalo.  I mean, what a well run organization with great history and how about those mild Buffalo winters?  Or I think I'd be like Niskanen.  Not worry about money and go to a team on the cusp with such great fans and storied history like the Caps.  Or maybe I'd think like Ryan Miller and go to the Canucks.  Now there's a team that's got their s*** together!

#2529794 Article on FAs and Red Wings

Posted by Playmaker on 03 July 2014 - 02:21 PM

Look folks, free agents signed with Washington, Florida, Buffalo, NYI, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, etc.  Not all of those places have perfect living conditions, up and coming teams, or ideal management. 


I'm as disappointed as everyone else is, but I don't think it's one "thing" or that "all free agents" are avoiding Detroit because of the condition of the city or that the team is somehow not competitive any more.  If that's the case, would anyone sign with any of those other teams?


That said, I do think it may be a possibility that Ken Holland may be lowballing or may overestimate the "We're the Red Wings" card, but some of these things being speculated about seem so far out there. 


I also think it's far too early to be heaping praise upon Jim Nill and Steve Yzerman.  Their teams were both eliminated in the first round, just like the Red Wings.  Just because they made signings and trades doesn't necessarily mean they will pan out or look good a few years from now. 

#2527011 Ehrhoff or Niskanen

Posted by Playmaker on 29 June 2014 - 06:21 PM

I'm just hoping we get one or the other.  A top 4 defenseman with offensive skills that will cost us nothing off the roster is just what the doctor ordered.  An upgrade on the backend will make our forwards that much more productive and can only help Smith and DeKeyser.  Can't it be July 1st right now?