Since your bringing up Toews selke's, and great two way play. Let's see if the gap is really that close for the defensive argument you are clinging to.
Let's compare the resumes to show how Toews all around play doesn't account for Ovi's all around play.
1 Conn Smythe
Oh yea, that 1 selke really shows Toews is soo great defensively. He is absolutely just miles above everyone else, especially Ovi. He has a whopping 1 more Selke after all. Like I said before, are you saying Bergeron is better then Toews?
2005-06 NHL Calder Memorial Trophy
2007-08 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2007-08 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2007-08 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy
2007-08 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2008-09 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2008-09 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy
2008-09 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2009-10 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2012-13 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2012-13 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy
2013-14 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy
2014-15 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy
Oh yea, let me also mention one of these players is a generational talent, the other is just a very good player.
Logic + Facts = Nerdy + Math Freak
Nerdy + Math Freak = You lose, you get nothing, good day sir
My knock on Ovi is his commitment to defense. It has lapsed at times. Otherwise he's an absolute bull in a china shop/freak of nature generational talent
My knock on Toews is he's overly praised for being on a very good team that he happens to captain, so he gets a ton of attention. He's also Canadian, so he gets ton of attention. He's pretty much supplanted Crosby as the NHL's "can't do wrong" "favoritest player" golden boy. Otherwise he's a very hard working player on all ends of the ice.
My edge goes easily to Ovi. Had Ovi been Canadian and drafted in Toews spot on the Hawks, and Toews Russian and drafted in Ovi's spot on the Caps... Toews would be talked about like Backstrom and Ovi would be talked about like Super Mario.
Z's a decent sniper, he's got a hell of a slapshot and backhand. But I'm not surprised he wasn't mentioned. He's been on a downward trend for the last 2 years or so and his goal scoring is bad.
The Pav stuff Quick mentioned gave me goosebumps <3. So true.
I was watching some Ovie highlights and it's so easy to forget how frickin good of a sniper he is. Slap, wrist or snap his shot is sooooo powerful it's ridiculous. Def top 5 all time imo.
I don't think of Toews or Z as snipers. I can kind of see what Quick is getting at regarding Toews, but he doesn't really belong in the elite sniper conversation. He's an all around great player, but if he were as great at being in the right place at the right time as Quick makes it sound, he'd be a more prolific goal scorer. Toews is very good at everything but not elite in the scoring department. Because he's Canadian and the captain on a multiple Cup winning team he does get overrated a bit with "intangibles." Kopitar is a similar kind of player but doesn't get nearly the same amount of hype.
I thought the Getzlaf example was really interesting as well. It shows so clearly how elite players manage to get a shot off by pulling it in and changing the angle so quickly. It keeps it from getting blocked and catches the goalie off guard. Whereas an average forward would've ripped a shot right into the defenseman's stick or skates.
Voracek has literally *1* point per game season. The rest are all 40-50 points. I firmly believe this contract is a huge gamble. Another example of teams (ugh Philly again) over inflating contracts based on one good performance
Yup, went to grind line and they ended up putting Yzerman and Fedorov together for a good while. Stevie was aging pretty bad by then.
Plus we signed guys like Hull and Robataille, no reason McCarty should have stayed on top lines.
Same, but they did wreck for a good few games.
McCarty was your typical grade A fighter, grinder without being all that big. His upper body strength was just ridiculous..... Plus it always helped having a right handed shooter.. something we haven't seen much of in a while unfortunately.
97, 98 and even 2002 lines had a good balance of right and left shooters, wish we could get s'more.
True. Half the reason McCarty performed less point wise in the 2000's is because we basically had an all-star team at that point. I still believe the salary cap exists almost solely because of us.
Statistical analysts are hired to do this work. It's not like the coach is expected to be the one that does the math lol. This has no effect on on-ice training like you say. All it does is give them information on how to better utilize their players in specific situations.
Silly debate. Stats are information. A tool. Scouts would use them as much or more than anyone. They've been around for decades. Over the years, more have been added/tracked. Even analytics aren't entirely new. Just a natural progression. More information is always better, provided you can understand the information. The advanced metrics still need a lot of work before we really understand them enough to make good use of them, but once teams start understanding them they will be a valuable resource, and that's why teams are hiring "stat guys". Stats aren't a replacement for scouting, they are a part of it.
I'm not saying they're not good or useful. I'm saying that telling someone that "stats overrule their opinion" may not always be accurate and you should rely on both. As the season wore on, we got worse defensively. I think the stats if broken down by month would probably show that and as an average we may have been a top 10 defensive team. But we weren't a top ten defensive team all year last year. We went from really good to pretty bad, so a season long average doesn't tell the whole story. That's all I'm saying.
Well with analytics you can break anything down you want, that's the point of stats. You can say the same about any other team, at the end of the year we "Averaged" a certain number just like everyone else. Over 82 games we were absolutely a top 10 defensive team.
I do hold stats to a higher value then someone scouting. When someone is scouting a player, it's a small sample size since they don't scout all 82 games. Analytics allow you to have the numbers in front of you and measure performance in which you cannot by watching. When making the hard decisions I would use analytics over what someone saw with there eye. Sorry if that bothers you, but it's my opinion.
A Larkin like transition? Give me a break. Larkin played a grand total of 6 games in Grand Rapids. Sure, he looked great, but anyone can pull that off in such a small sample size, especially coming off an unbelievable college season, World Juniors, and World Championships. I'm willing to bet that Mantha could have pulled off similar numbers in the 2014 playoffs with the Griffins, if Val d'Or didn't go on such a deep run, winning the President's Cup and going on to play for the Memorial Cup. Confidence is huge in any professional sport, and hockey is no different. Larkin was coming into the Calder Cup playoffs oozing confidence, just as Mantha would have a year prior. Instead, Mantha came into training camp last offseason oozing confidence and looking great, and then fractured his right tibia, and as a result was out for 2 months, missing the Red Wings training camp and the Griffins training camp, and just never got his game on track after that. Some act as such a serious leg injury is no big deal, and he should have immediately regained form. I do think he had a rough season, and he probably should have ended the regular season on a more positive note, or at the very least should have been more of an impact by playoffs. However, I do believe that we will see a completely different player in Grand Rapids this season. I expect he will hover at or around a point per game pace the entire season. Here's to hoping...
Bottom line is he had a disappointing first AHL season no matter how you want to paint it. Devellano isn't wrong, he's just dumb for saying it to the media. Clearly the organization had higher hopes for his first season.
So... based on your expectations you are disappoint, but you're not ready to throw in the towel on the kid.
So, would you trade him for the right player? (whether it be a one for one or package deal) ...or is he "untouchable." (in your eyes)
No I think he's still untouchable. He's just trending downward. However, If plays the same way again this coming season I think he's gonna start becoming touchable real quickly.