Almost the same contract that Brian Rafalski got... Which is fitting, because this contract will look a lot better when we trade for a #1 Defenceman and pair them together.
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WingedWheel91Member Since 11 Mar 2013
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Posted by WingedWheel91 on 25 July 2016 - 12:49 PM
It's true LeftWinger - I didn't necessarily like the 5 year term either, but Darren Helm is an extremely valuable forward that creates roster flexibility unlike anyone else. He is our best penalty killer plus our best (or second best) forechecker. He has been useful on the first line, and he's obviously been great on the 4th line. Having forwards like this is invaluable, especially in the playoffs when you win or lose games after you win or lose individual matchups. This undeniably happened against Tampa Bay in 2015 (who went to game 6 of the Finals) when Luke Glendenning got hurt and missed the last two periods of game 4, after completely suppressing the "kid line" to that point entirely. I truly believe the legend of Tyler Johnson may have never been a thing if not for that injury.
Daren Helm has that ability plus more to offer offensively.
Would I like him more at $2,950,000? Of course. But that isn't the math or the question that matters... It was widely reported that he took a hometown discount and had offers over $4,000,000 to leave - so we made it up on term. If the question to me is you can have Helm at $3.85 or no Helm, I take what I know considering I just lost my best player who was also a Center.
So if the "number" everyone seems comfortable with (which basically equates to the difference of a league min contract) isn't that big a deal - I can't really accept that one guy is preventing all of Jurco, Mantha, Anthanasiou and Bertuzzi from a job in the NHL.
Posted by WingedWheel91 on 22 July 2016 - 03:15 PM
While I don't necessarily disagree with you regarding Jurco, I think you have to be careful with this argument. The counterfactual makes the argument less plausible. People only ever insinuate "stats don't matter that much" when they're talking about guys who aren't producing. I've never, ever, seen someone argue that stats don't matter that much when I guy is scoring a ton (which is after all the point of the game). Except maybe when it came to Franzen lol.
If stats aren't the only, or even the predominant, way of evaluating a player's worth, then that argument would be just as true for players who produce a lot as those those who don't produce much at all. But nobody ever argues it that way.
I think the jury is still out on Jurco. I think he has all the tools to be a good player. But it's very possible that his first 30 odd games were the exception and not the rule. Truth is, we don't know what kind of a player he is at this point.
I just think it's really easy to see his 4G + 2A in 44 GP last year and call him disposable - but not as easy to understand why/how that could be a mis-representation of his value to our organization, or what he could accomplish given an opportunity in the top 6 (a much better fit for his skillset than on a line with Glendenning).
The argument that stats don't matter that much can actually be utilized to the other extreme... Look at a guy like Alex Ovechkin, he is the epitome of elite production yet also the games biggest loser... Is it his fault? Not entirely, but the fact that he can score 51 Goals and somehow end a season -35 (in 2014) indicates he may be part of the problem as much as he is the key ingredient to winning games.
Posted by WingedWheel91 on 22 July 2016 - 01:02 PM
I dont think anyone would care that much if Jurco or Pulk got dealt for peanuts to be honest.
Both of their hypes have been GREATLY dminished
Because most people look simply at stats to determine value.
Jurco is a 23 year old who has the offensive ability and size to become an impact forward in this league... We forget that in his first 36 NHL games (as a 20 year old) he recorded 8 goals and 7 assists... (82 GP - 18 G - 16 A).
Did he truly regress this much? I don't know that he did.
Worst case scenario is trading him away for nothing and watching him flourish in someone else's top 6.
Posted by WingedWheel91 on 22 July 2016 - 12:43 PM
Why the f*** would we trade for him we aren't contenders
I agree with you.
But I don't think this team is as far away as most people.
We need (1) Larkin to continue developing into a 1st line Center - and (2) Ken Holland to acquire a young top pairing Defenceman... We have tons of scoring depth (without any superstars) up front and a fantastic young goalie. If you can add the right piece to our defence, it suddenly takes on a much more promising look.
Although Jurco for Streit is an awful deal (and probably not actually being considered) - it's that type of move he should be looking to make, even if he has to overpay... Which is why I believe he stocked the cupboard full up front this summer.
Posted by WingedWheel91 on 21 July 2016 - 12:03 PM
I do that.
Nyquist, Pulkkinen and Oullett. For who? What will that get us? Most definitely Fowler, but Trouba, Shattenkirk?
I think its enough to get a player like Trouba - unfortunately WPG probably isn't as interested in Nyquist/Pulkinnen as others would be. It certainly gets you Fowler/Shattenkirk but I think it's an over payment for either of those two players.
Posted by WingedWheel91 on 20 July 2016 - 07:52 AM
Again ... Why would the jets want anything to do with nyquist? The offense is stacked in Winnipeg if anything they'd want is a leadership presence up front and nyquist certainly doesn't bring that
If there gonna lose a big dman like trouba I'm convinced dekeyer would have to be included as they'd want a really good dman coming back and we don't have any dman blue chip prospects to dangle and ouellet isn't enough,smith is a ufa in one year
I'm trying to be realistic , we won't land him with a Tatar/nyquist ... But like you said and what I've always said the chances of the jets trading trouba are slim , they'd part with Myers before trouba and I could be totally wrong but I do think enstrom would have only one year left on his contract? I can see them buying him out and keeping both Myers and trouba
I'd want trouba over fowler ... Not the biggest fan of fowler but I think most everyone here should be prepared for us to land fowler , the ducks are looking to ship him off for upfront help and I think it's just a good match
Tatar or nyquist with a getzlaf gets 25-30 goals
The truth is that Ken Holland is probably playing golf right now - with his cell phone turned off... So I'm not exactly refreshing my twitter feed waiting for a trade to break.
My point with the Trouba scenario was that this roster can take on an entirely different look if we can land an impact (top pair) defenceman... Yes its expensive, but we have young assets and all of our draft picks to make it happen. And if it happens, it may not be any of Trouba, Fowler or Shattenkirk - as there are several players available or soon to be available that we don't hear about as fans (Shea Weber).
I have to think that he went into the summer with this many forwards to make a trade - with the very real possibility it doesn't work out.
Posted by WingedWheel91 on 19 July 2016 - 03:00 PM
I'm not overly excited at the moment - but I have to believe this surplus of forwards is for a greater cause. Such as, trading for Jacob Trouba (which would take Nyquist and Pulkinnen probably) making this roster alot more interesting:
ZETTERBERG - LARKIN - ABDELKADER
TATAR - NIELSEN - VANEK
ANTHANASIOU - SHEAHAN - MANTHA/JURCO
MILLER - HELM - GLENDENNING
DEKEYSER - TROUBA
KRONWALL - GREEN
ERICSSON/SMITH - MARCHENKO
That team would be the best we've had in a few years.
Posted by WingedWheel91 on 12 July 2016 - 07:44 AM
Isn't that overstating it a little?
#1 - He signed a 3 year contract with this team, tries to leave after the first year - and then puts out an article (right before the start of the playoffs) letting everyone know he's leaving after the second year to "gives back to the Russia people". I guess that wasn't much of an untimely distraction?
#2 - He predictably takes a step back from that stance, and says he didn't make any decision yet (although it was obvious he did) - but if he does leave, it's actually because he wants to see his daughter more... Because who could argue with that?
#3 - He ultimately (to no surprise) leaves, and costs us Jacob Chychrun.
#4 - He then signs with the best team in the KHL, which is a 30 hour drive from his daughter.
If any other long term Red Wing handled their departure worse than he did, please let me know. If not, then no - I don't think I'm overstating a little.
Posted by WingedWheel91 on 08 July 2016 - 02:49 PM
Darren Helm might be overpaid (for 82 regular season games), but he is still a valuable commodity on this team. He can play up and down the lineup (which is more important than advertised), kill penalties and provide a fore-check better than anyone not named Justin Abdelkader.
Come April, every team needs several guys like this to wear down the opponents D (that just didn't sound right, but it is pride month - so enjoy!!!). It's also hard to compare Nyquist's salary to his, because Nyquist is a different player with a different role on this team - and was actually more disappointing through that lens this past postseason. They both had 1 goal and 0 assists, but Helm did much more for this team than score - while Nyquist simply doesn't.
All in all, he still has the tools to be one of the most effective third line centers in the league - and $3,000,000 - $4,000,000 is what that probably costs.
Posted by WingedWheel91 on 05 July 2016 - 02:25 PM
I think almost everyone here agrees that Nerve is a phenomenal poster while you... lol let's not get enough that. Great thread title btw.
Let's reverse the question. What would it take for a Holland hater to to stop hatin'
If he landed a godamn defenseman.
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Posted by WingedWheel91 on 20 June 2016 - 01:32 PM
But I really don't think the cap hit for one year is that bad. Maybe we don't sign any free agents and go with the kids. That could end up being great for the organization long-term with AA, Mantha, maybe Bertuzzi getting more opportunity than usual. We weren't going to win the cup next year anyway. Also, I think him leaving actually gives us more of an opportunity to sign Stamkos than we would have had.
Russia would have been the hometown discount? What does that mean in the context of what I was talking about? I was making the point that he could have made more by signing with other teams in the NHL. Just because he could have made less in Russia doesn't negate that. He stay with us for 14 years which is rare in the NHL and shows loyalty. As for the "KHL has evolved" stuff - If you're trying to insinuate that he's going there for more money, we debunked that in another thread. That league is struggling due to Russia's economic woes and the hard cap for that league is being lowered successively for the next few years. He won't make more there for next year. His salary would have to be over 7.5 mill.
He hired an indepentent lawyer and talked to the player's union to try to find a way to leave without leaving us with the cap hit. Doesn't sound like disregard to me.
He's divorced, his ex-wife took his daughter back to Russia. He's only able to see her the summer months. I consider that a legitimate family situation. We don't really know the specific (rightfully), but I think you can imagine the effect of losing touch with your daughter.
Again, Incorrect in bold.
His cap hit was $7,500,000. His actual salary would have been $5,500,000 in a state with an income tax rate close to 42%. His actual take home would have been just over $3,000,000. I don't pretend to know what his tax rate in Russia will be next year, but I am confident his KHL salary over the next 2 or 3 seasons will be close to what he would have made in the NHL - which was an impossibility when he left in 2001. The other interesting financial tactic the KHL employs (which I've posted about before) is bonuses per goal, per assist, and per victory... This is a top 3 player the KHL has ever recruited, and the captain of Russia's Olympic team - if you don't think his salary, bonuses, and new endorsements will exceed $3,000,000 next year - I simply disagree.
At the end of the day, I understand and appreciate your optimism - but sometimes it is what it is. Pavel Datsyuk didn't do us any favours with this decision, and we won't be much better for it because AA, Bertuzzi and Mantha could see a little more ice time (assuming the last two even make the team). Maybe it makes pursuing Stamkos more important, but if we don't trade his contract away (which would come at a different type of cost) it's financially impossible - not exactly ideal.
Here's a different way to put it: If Datsyuk's family situation was so urgent that he needed to leave, why is he still going to play professional hockey next season? The commitment is largely the same? In my opinion, the money is similar and he would rather be in Russia - which is funny, because in most industries if I terminate my contract a year before it expires, to go do the same thing for a competitor - I would be facing a lawsuit. But in hockey, we are talking about retiring his jersey.
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Posted by WingedWheel91 on 20 June 2016 - 09:42 AM
This is sad way for him to go because the discussion everywhere seems to about the contract rather than celebrating the NHL career of one of the best players to put a Wings jersey on.
I don't hold anything against Pav. He's been loyal to us. We had him at a 6.7 caphit 08-14, which is definitely a hometown discount and helped out the team financially. That should be considered in the picture. Also, from Holland's characterization of the situation and him firing his agent, it seems clear that Datsyuk wasn't aware of the rules involved when he signed the 3 year, 35+ deal.
I see many situations where it's not advantageous to trade the Datsyuk contract (trading youth, high picks) but I hope we trade the contract just so people don't blow this little blemish out of proportion; saying he crippled us by leaving the caphit. Especially if we were to miss the playoffs, I could foresee some blame being dumped on him.
I'd like to see his number retired, but I think Fedorov is more deserving and should be done first
The first statement in bold is incorrect - in his official retirement press conference, he was asked if he knew about the age 35+ rule when he signed the 3 year extension and the financial implications it would have on this team: His answer "Yeah I know, they explain me everything - Yes I know". (https://www.nhl.com/...7578/c-44232103) - fast forward to the 7:13 mark.
The second statement in bold is exactly why he shouldn't have his number retired, nor will the organization celebrate him much moving forward.
He was absolutely one of the best two-way players we have had on this team, and he left on the worst terms I can remember. To say that we offered him a hometown discount is generally true, but also a very ironic statement. We seem to forget that in 2001 - he came to a championship caliber team, to learn from the best coach in NHL history at a time when the KHL was incomparable in terms of player salary. In the 14 years he played here, he amassed over $80,000,000 USD - which actually would have made Russia the "hometown discount" had he stayed there his entire career.
The reason I can't side with him here, has more to do with the collateral effects this decision renders - more than him deciding to leave early. He signed a 3 year contract extension exactly 2 years ago, and apparently needed convincing to honour even the 2nd year before doing the exact same thing in Russia. That disregard toward the ownership/franchise that took a chance/invested heavily into him makes it clear that he absolutely doesn't care about the state of this team, or the fact that (1) unloading his contract is going to cost us a valuable asset or (2) if we fail to unload his cap hit, we cant sign an equivalent replacement.
All in all, from the start of this post-season when he approved the release of an article that confirmed he was heading back home - which was an ill timed distraction - to the news of this weekend, I can't say any of it sits well with me. He failed to do what was so obviously the right thing in this case, and play out the final year. I would understand injury, or perhaps a legitimate family situation - but to simply go home (considering the impact it has on the Red Wings) a year early makes me feel like when he needed us, we gave him every opportunity and more to succeed and make his "family" a lot more money than Russia could have. But the KHL has evolved, and maybe now that he doesn't need us as much as he once did - his decision becomes one out of preference rather than respect.
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Posted by WingedWheel91 on 02 June 2016 - 12:40 PM
Want a current comparable ... Keith yandle , puts up numbers doesn't do much else , go ask the Rangers if they don't regret giving up duclair and what else they did to acquire him
Shattenkirk isn't a great defender , he's been hurt last few seasons .. He was - 14 this season on a very good blues team and that's with him putting up numbers
It would be a waste of good assets to acquire him and a waste of salary cap it would take to lock him up longterm
Erik Karlsson also "puts up numbers", "isn't a great defender" and was -2 this season - but could very easily win the Norris trophy in 2016.
There are very few Nick Lidstrom's who play every part of the game at an elite level - so to compare positional players by generalizing their abilities into: Good at this/Not good at that/OK at this categories is unproductive in my opinion. What matters at the end of the day, is how valuable a player can be to his team... I'm not an advocate of over-paying for anyone, but to argue that Shattenkirk won't fit with the Red Wings because all he does is "put up numbers" is profoundly dumb. Keep in mind, he ranked 19th in NHL defence scoring (which was 1st on his team) and missed 10 games - but did this from the 2ND Pairing at both even strength, and on the powerplay.
I remember losing to the Tampa Bay Lightning in 5 games because we literally didn't have anyone who "put up numbers" - especially on the back end.