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#2678345 Datsyuk Announcement to Officially Leave NHL

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 20 June 2016 - 01:32 PM

But I really don't think the cap hit for one year is that bad. Maybe we don't sign any free agents and go with the kids. That could end up being great for the organization long-term with AA, Mantha, maybe Bertuzzi getting more opportunity than usual. We weren't going to win the cup next year anyway. Also, I think him leaving actually gives us more of an opportunity to sign Stamkos than we would have had.


Russia would have been the hometown discount? What does that mean in the context of what I was talking about? I was making the point that he could have made more by signing with other teams in the NHL. Just because he could have made less in Russia doesn't negate that. He stay with us for 14 years which is rare in the NHL and shows loyalty. As for the "KHL has evolved" stuff - If you're trying to insinuate that he's going there for more money, we debunked that in another thread. That league is struggling due to Russia's economic woes and the hard cap for that league is being lowered successively for the next few years. He won't make more there for next year. His salary would have to be over 7.5 mill.


He hired an indepentent lawyer and talked to the player's union to try to find a way to leave without leaving us with the cap hit. Doesn't sound like disregard to me.


He's divorced, his ex-wife took his daughter back to Russia. He's only able to see her the summer months. I consider that a legitimate family situation. We don't really know the specific (rightfully), but I think you can imagine the effect of losing touch with your daughter.


Again, Incorrect in bold.


His cap hit was $7,500,000. His actual salary would have been $5,500,000 in a state with an income tax rate close to 42%. His actual take home would have been just over $3,000,000. I don't pretend to know what his tax rate in Russia will be next year, but I am confident his KHL salary over the next 2 or 3 seasons will be close to what he would have made in the NHL - which was an impossibility when he left in 2001. The other interesting financial tactic the KHL employs (which I've posted about before) is bonuses per goal, per assist, and per victory... This is a top 3 player the KHL has ever recruited, and the captain of Russia's Olympic team - if you don't think his salary, bonuses, and new endorsements will exceed $3,000,000 next year - I simply disagree.


At the end of the day, I understand and appreciate your optimism - but sometimes it is what it is. Pavel Datsyuk didn't do us any favours with this decision, and we won't be much better for it because AA, Bertuzzi and Mantha could see a little more ice time (assuming the last two even make the team). Maybe it makes pursuing Stamkos more important, but if we don't trade his contract away (which would come at a different type of cost) it's financially impossible - not exactly ideal.


Here's a different way to put it: If Datsyuk's family situation was so urgent that he needed to leave, why is he still going to play professional hockey next season? The commitment is largely the same? In my opinion, the money is similar and he would rather be in Russia - which is funny, because in most industries if I terminate my contract a year before it expires, to go do the same thing for a competitor - I would be facing a lawsuit. But in hockey, we are talking about retiring his jersey.

#2678320 Datsyuk Announcement to Officially Leave NHL

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 20 June 2016 - 09:42 AM

This is sad way for him to go because the discussion everywhere seems to about the contract rather than celebrating the NHL career of one of the best players to put a Wings jersey on.


I don't hold anything against Pav. He's been loyal to us. We had him at a 6.7 caphit 08-14, which is definitely a hometown discount and helped out the team financially. That should be considered in the picture. Also, from Holland's characterization of the situation and him firing his agent, it seems clear that Datsyuk wasn't aware of the rules involved when he signed the 3 year, 35+ deal.


I see many situations where it's not advantageous to trade the Datsyuk contract (trading youth, high picks) but I hope we trade the contract just so people don't blow this little blemish out of proportion; saying he crippled us by leaving the caphit. Especially if we were to miss the playoffs, I could foresee some blame being dumped on him.


I'd like to see his number retired, but I think Fedorov is more deserving and should be done first


The first statement in bold is incorrect - in his official retirement press conference, he was asked if he knew about the age 35+ rule when he signed the 3 year extension and the financial implications it would have on this team: His answer "Yeah I know, they explain me everything - Yes I know". (https://www.nhl.com/...7578/c-44232103) - fast forward to the 7:13 mark.


The second statement in bold is exactly why he shouldn't have his number retired, nor will the organization celebrate him much moving forward.


He was absolutely one of the best two-way players we have had on this team, and he left on the worst terms I can remember. To say that we offered him a hometown discount is generally true, but also a very ironic statement. We seem to forget that in 2001 - he came to a championship caliber team, to learn from the best coach in NHL history at a time when the KHL was incomparable in terms of player salary. In the 14 years he played here, he amassed over $80,000,000 USD - which actually would have made Russia the "hometown discount" had he stayed there his entire career.


The reason I can't side with him here, has more to do with the collateral effects this decision renders - more than him deciding to leave early. He signed a 3 year contract extension exactly 2 years ago, and apparently needed convincing to honour even the 2nd year before doing the exact same thing in Russia. That disregard toward the ownership/franchise that took a chance/invested heavily into him makes it clear that he absolutely doesn't care about the state of this team, or the fact that (1) unloading his contract is going to cost us a valuable asset or (2) if we fail to unload his cap hit, we cant sign an equivalent replacement. 


All in all, from the start of this post-season when he approved the release of an article that confirmed he was heading back home - which was an ill timed distraction - to the news of this weekend, I can't say any of it sits well with me. He failed to do what was so obviously the right thing in this case, and play out the final year. I would understand injury, or perhaps a legitimate family situation - but to simply go home (considering the impact it has on the Red Wings) a year early makes me feel like when he needed us, we gave him every opportunity and more to succeed and make his "family" a lot more money than Russia could have. But the KHL has evolved, and maybe now that he doesn't need us as much as he once did - his decision becomes one out of preference rather than respect.

#2676862 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 02 June 2016 - 12:40 PM

Your funny

Want a current comparable ... Keith yandle , puts up numbers doesn't do much else , go ask the Rangers if they don't regret giving up duclair and what else they did to acquire him

Shattenkirk isn't a great defender , he's been hurt last few seasons .. He was - 14 this season on a very good blues team and that's with him putting up numbers

It would be a waste of good assets to acquire him and a waste of salary cap it would take to lock him up longterm


Erik Karlsson also "puts up numbers", "isn't a great defender" and was -2 this season - but could very easily win the Norris trophy in 2016.


There are very few Nick Lidstrom's who play every part of the game at an elite level - so to compare positional players by generalizing their abilities into: Good at this/Not good at that/OK at this categories is unproductive in my opinion.  What matters at the end of the day, is how valuable a player can be to his team... I'm not an advocate of over-paying for anyone, but to argue that Shattenkirk won't fit with the Red Wings because all he does is "put up numbers" is profoundly dumb. Keep in mind, he ranked 19th in NHL defence scoring (which was 1st on his team) and missed 10 games - but did this from the 2ND Pairing at both even strength, and on the powerplay. 


I remember losing to the Tampa Bay Lightning in 5 games because we literally didn't have anyone who "put up numbers" - especially on the back end.

#2676571 Datsyuk - someone who works for JLA told me he's sold his house

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 26 May 2016 - 09:40 AM

Kovy's contract was made when the league was at a high for financial success and before the implication of a hard Salary cap (it was a soft cap). KHL President is now lowering the cap by 50 mill rubles (764,377 USD) each year 2015-2017. There's a reason Radulov is leaving.


Add to that the fact that Datsyuk will be 38 while Kovy was in his prime, and I think you'd be wise not take Kovy as a comparable.


Datsyuk's already a national hero and a big star in Russia. If he wanted Russian endorsements I'm sure he already has them. I don't see why playing in the KHL would make much of a difference. Anyway, it does take him away from US sports endorsements which are much larger because it's a much bigger market.


A new bit of info I found in a Detroit Free Press article, is that Pav also missed out on a 2 million dollars of this past year's salary by not fulfilling his contract. (in the notes at the bottom)




So if you think he's going to the KHL for more money, then his contract for next year has to be more than 7.5 million. 


I don't see any evidence that suggests we mistrust his own explanation of the situation in the Albom article.


That's interesting - I didn't know about the $2,000,000 penalty he was facing if he retired early.


Any way you slice it the money is going to be (at the very least) close to what he would have made next year... Keep in mind, he may be comparing the next 2 years of his contract when deciding to leave. Based on what we all saw from his this post-season, he isn't close to what he was - and would not have been paid $7,500,000 by any NHL team in 2018-2019. So in theory, he could easily sign a 2 year contract in Russia that pays him more in 2016-17/2017-18 than he would have made in the NHL. He will also be more effective in the KHL, and collaterally more valuable.


My biggest problem still exists: Pavel has no problem financially penalizing this team by leaving to go and do the same thing in Russia, for a similar amount of money. This team, happens to be the same team that paid him more than $79,000,000 in NHL salary the past 14 seasons - and gave him a chance to to play/develop with hall of fame line-mates as an undersized 6th round pick. The fact that he isn't honouring the final year of his contract, and at the same time preventing us from taking a run at his replacement - says more about his character than anything else in my opinion.

#2676024 Datsyuk - someone who works for JLA told me he's sold his house

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 16 May 2016 - 09:15 AM

I looked his house up and it's still listed for sale. Price went down by $250k on April 27th though.




I'm like 99% sure that's his house. The agent listed is Milstein and the photos of the interior have all sorts of Red Wings pics like Hank/Hull/Datsyuk. Yzerman, and some Datsyuk jerseys. 


It's certainly his house... Picture #51 is of his trophy case which has 4 Presidents and 2 (of 3) Selke trophies on the shelf.


Should have been an investigator.

#2675750 IIHF World Championships

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 11 May 2016 - 03:31 PM

There are a few flaws in your argument though. 


1. Datsyuk was a primary scorer while Nyquist was a secondary scorer. So comparatively Datsyuk was just as bad (if not worse than Nyquist).


2. Nyquist's quality of teammates are worse than Datsyuk (who primarily played with Brett Hull and Henrik Zetterberg). Datsyuk also averaged about 3+ minutes more ice time in his 2nd seasons and beyond in the playoffs


3. Datsyuk's first good playoff year was after his first 41 playoff games. Nyquist has only played 35 playoff games. 


And then you're using hindsight bias to confirm that Datsyuk figured it out. Even though it took him a looooong time to figure it out. And at the time we were all saying exactly what we are saying of Nyquist. The narrative then for about 4 years in a row was "Pavel Datsyuk is not cut out for the playoffs". Easier to look back in hindsight tho.. But you aren't open to the idea that Nyquist might be a late bloomer as well? I mean sure he might not pan out... maybe Nyquist will never figure it out. But seeing as how Datsyuk took 41 games to figure out, and knowing Nyquist has played about 35 games so far, I think we can at least give Nyquist another 6+ games to see if he finds his mojo.


But hey I'm open to the idea of trading Nyquist. Especially if it means getting someone who can score in the playoffs (Kyle Okoposo)


I'm not ready to give up just yet on Nyquist either, but I think a couple of important points are being missed here:


#1 - Datsyuk's first 37 playoff games were played before the first lockout in 2004/2005 - so it isn't a surprise that he struggled offensively, as the obstruction rules (which were producing historically low goal totals) had yet to change. His playoff numbers (like a lot of other skilled forwards) increased in 2005/2006 after the crackdown. For example, our Stanley Cup "greatest team ever" run in 2001-2002, saw Brendan Shanahan lead our team in scoring with only 75 points.


#2 - 21 out of Datsyuk's first 37 playoff games came as a rookie in 2002. This was before the Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Hull line, and maybe before he even had powerplay time... To compare Nyquist's first 35 playoff games as a secondary scorer on a fringe playoff team who lose consistently in the first round, to Datsyuk as a secondary scorer on maybe "the greatest team ever" is a tough one for me, no matter how bad Pavel's point totals were.


#3 - Ice time is also a difficult metric to use when comparing players who (A) play a different position and (B) play a different role. Datsyuk was the premier two-way center in the NHL for a long time - his shutdown/penalty killing ability didn't show up in the boxscore - but neither did the players he was out against, which certainly helped win us games. Unfortunately, if Nyquist doesn't produce offensively, he isn't doing much atall.

#2675073 Official - Little Caesars Arena

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 04 May 2016 - 10:31 AM

Do we even have mods anymore or what? Frank makes homosexual slurs in another thread, with no discipline associated, and now this guy's comments? I thought the rules on offensive posts were pretty clear but apparently that doesn't matter if nobody does anything about it.


Donald Trump is your republican candidate... The MOD's can't help you now.

#2674960 This hits the nail on the head......

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 03 May 2016 - 10:37 AM


I think you're missing my point entirely. 


It's 2016.  By the time next season is in full swing it will be 2017.  10 years removed from 2007.  Even if you want to argue we were contenders between 2010 and 2013 (which I would say we were not since the results were embarrassed by the sharks and almost swept, almost swept by the sharks again, embarrassed and almost swept by the preds in the first round, and choking away a 3 - 1 lead against the blackhawks,) That will be four years ago.  Four years is an eternity in professional sports. 


Guys forget about what happened in the distant past.  Look at the here and now. The ship is sinking.  It has been sinking for a long time.  At some point you have to hold leadership responsible.  You can't keep looking to the captain and saying "Well he lead us on some successful voyages a long time ago!". 


Or let me ask the question this way:


Are you happy with how our season ended this year?  What about last year?  The year before?  What about the one before that one?  What about every year going back to 2010?  How many of those are you happy with the outcome?  The answer should be 0. 


29/30 teams will be unhappy with their season when it ends this year... Just like last year, just like the year before, and just like the one before that one. No-one is happy when they miss the playoffs, and none of the playoff teams are "happy" when they lose a 7 game series.


Apparently it was my point that was missed, so I'll paraphrase: It's extremely difficult to make the playoffs every year in a salary cap system (Detroit remains the only team to accomplish that). But It's impossible to remain a cup contender for 10, 15, 20 years when you don't have a single top 10 draft pick to turn the generation over with.


What we are witnessing today is that very turnover - most contending teams today (as I pointed out), have taken an average of missing the playoffs for 10 years to complete that process, but it looks like we're right in the middle of it, without missing the playoffs. If that's what you call a "sinking ship" I guess you haven't paid much attention to some of the other re-builds around the league.

#2674950 This hits the nail on the head......

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 03 May 2016 - 08:33 AM

We haven't realistically competed for a cup since 09.  That's now SEVEN YEARS.  Expecting a team to compete for a cup once in 7 years is not asking too much nor does it make us "spoiled fans".  You want to know what fan base is happy just making the playoffs?  The Maple Leaves.  Is that who you want to be?


Here's what your missing:


If we're talking about the Salary Cap era, you can argue that the Red Wings were at (or near the top) of the "Stanley Cup favourites" list from 2007-2013 - Yes, we had a couple of early round exits in that range, but so did many of this years "favourites" in Chicago, Anaheim, and LA... it happens annually in the NHL.


The difference is that when our run began in 2007, almost all of the teams you would consider as front runners this year (Washington, LA, Chicago, St.Louis) did not qualify for the playoffs. If you go in depth, Chicago had a run from 1998-2009 where they only made the playoffs once, and didn't win a single round... Today they represent the modern day dynasty, and model of success. The LA Kings had a stretch 2002-2012 where they only made the playoffs once, and didn't win a single round. The Capitals didn't win a round from 1998-2009 - and missed the playoffs entirely in most of those years. The Penguins? They were a ping-pong ball away from bankruptcy and relocation.


What we have accomplished is extremely rare, and something I will always be proud to hear: We haven't missed the playoffs in 25 years. Let's not forget that the teams we envy today, spent (on average) about a decade out of the playoffs, mixed in with the odd 30th place finish. If you understand the salary cap and the fact it's working, how can you complain about the results we've had?

#2674220 Official - Little Caesars Arena

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 28 April 2016 - 01:06 PM

Maybe it'll garner the nickname  'The Oven'?


Thank God the Illitch family isn't German.

#2673865 Free Press: Pavel Datsyuk to return to Russia following Playoffs

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 26 April 2016 - 02:23 PM


You're right, I realized that moments after my post. Even if he was to get paid it probably wouldn't hurt the Ilitch's. The cap is another matter altogether. It's all in Ken Holland's hands now then. Sigh.


It could collaterally make the Illitch family more money...


If the money was paid to Pavel but didn't count against the cap, we could replace him with someone in the same price range - and almost certainly get more production. Maybe we win a round in the playoffs and potentially get (5 or 6) home games instead of (2)... That more than pays for his contract.

#2673860 Free Press: Pavel Datsyuk to return to Russia following Playoffs

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 26 April 2016 - 01:58 PM


A bit too much sauce on this for my taste. Nevertheless you are correct - he's leaving. And yes, he's not producing, it's time to go. Let's realize that and work from there. And by Holland's interviews he's aware.


The honorable thing in my opinion would be that Datsyuk just said "I'm not getting paid this season, as I'm not playing - money back". But of course in today's world that's not even a consideration.


Datsyuk wouldn't get paid (by the Red Wings) next season if he retires this summer.


The issue he creates is that his cap hit acts as a penalty, in the same summer that another franchise center is available in the prime of his career.

#2669755 ECQF Game 2 Post-GDT: at Tampa Bay 5, Red Wings 2

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 16 April 2016 - 07:31 AM

Difference between this year and last:

(1) Mrazek has the ability to steal a game. Howard does not.
(2) Babcock is a much better coach than Blashill.
(3) Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kronwall are all noticeably worse players a year later.

Can't be shocked - this team is what it is... Shouldn't have made the playoffs and now we're surprised we lost 2 in a row in Tampa.

No Mantha and Smith are not the answer, our problems are far greater than Smith and Mantha -> Ericsson and Andersson.

#2667421 ECQF Game 1 GTD: Red Wings at Tampa Bay Lightning, 7:00 ET

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 13 April 2016 - 07:14 AM

3-0 Red Wings.


#1 - Andersson retrieves the puck coming up the boards, and buries a clapper from the half wall - fooling Ben Bishop.

#2 - Andersson hammers one home from 36" - right after Quincey hits him the ass from the point.

#3 - Andersson (who has earned full trust from the coaching staff) is out there protecting the 2-0 lead, unselfishly dishes the puck to Glendenning for the empty netter. I throw my hat at the TV in respect to El Chapo Andersson.



#2667299 Mantha

Posted by WingedWheel91 on 12 April 2016 - 01:48 PM

2015/16 points per 60 mins of game time for the RW under all conditions:


AA 2.52

Tatar 2.32

Franzen 2.32

Datsyuk 2.22

Nyquist 2.07

larkin 2.04

Z 1.92

Pulk 1.73

Richards 1.67

Abby 1.67

Mantha 1.54

Helm 1.34

Sheahan 1.22

Glendening 1.02


Numbers don't lie. Mantha produced more points per 60 mins of game time than Helm and Andersson. Yes it was only for 10 games. But he did produce more. Now who is going to get better? Helm who has always been between 1.25 and 1.5 for his career or Mantha who is just beggining?

Mantha was 11th overall this year. Franzen is out forever, datsyuk is leaving, and Richards is a UFA. Makes him a top 9 guy next year as a minimum. More than likely top 6. So Play him!


One small argument:


Mantha recorded 66% of his points on the PP and doesn't kill penalties.


Helm recorded 0% of his points on the PP and does kill penalties.


Point being - The PPG/60 Minutes stats are skewed if you are trying to find out who is better offensively - when one player (Helm) spends a certain % of his minutes killing penalties, and the other (Mantha) spends a certain % of his minutes on the PP,  but neither play both.


Using 5on5 metrics is more helpful in determining this:


Helm - 0.34 5vs5 PPG

Mantha - 0.10 5vs5 PPG


Not such a slam dunk.