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Fred_Bear

Member Since 27 Feb 2014
Offline Last Active Yesterday, 09:47 AM
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In Topic: Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

26 August 2014 - 11:13 PM

 

Mrazek = Blue chip

Mantha = Blue chip

Jurco = Blue chip

Sheahan = Bluechip/graduated

Nyquist = Bluechip/graduated

Tatar = Bluechip/graduated

 

I'd venture to say Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, Backman, Pulkkinen, and Athanasiou are also all blue chip, or at least very close to it. That's 12 prospects i would consider highly valuable. 9 if you don't want to count our graduates. Also, Hockeys future also still ranks Dekeyser as a prospect, even though I don't consider him one, bc when you think about it he's barely 24. Still very young. There's a reason are prospect pool is ranked so highly. The only teams really ahead of us in terms of having a number of bluechip prospects are teams like Buffalo, NYI, Tampa, Winnipeg, all teams that have been bad for a while. And for most of those teams there is a huge drop off in talent level after their blue chips. With us that is almost never the case.

 

And yes he's serious. As am I. Everyone is quick to say get rid of Holland but then cannot cite one good replacement. I challenge you to do this. My point was not to say "look at all the possible options!" it was "look at how crappy our options would be if we didn't extend Holland". Fresh eyes are good and all, but I'm not going to throw out a great GM whose made a few low-risk mistakes the past few seasons just for the sake of bringing in a nobody or loser just because there eyes are "fresh". If there was good GM available looking to make a change or takeover an original six or big budget team, or we had someone in the organization ready for the reigns, I might be singing a different tune, but there aren't any of those people available right now. I also don't think cutting off the head of the snake is a good thing to do in the middle of a delicate retool when all is said and done.

 

EDIT: Larkin is also our highest pick in what? Like a billion years? Might consider him bluechip as well.

 

I guess I have a different definition of 'blue chip'. I reserve it for the best-of-the-best which in this case would mean NHL-ready. Again, I'm not saying that the Wings don't have any or that the system is horrible or that the sky is going to come crashing down. I'm saying that most teams trading top 6 forwards or top-pair defensemen are looking for NHL-ready prospects and based on most of the scouting reports I've read, the majority of the guys you mentioned all have 'work needed' to be ready for the NHL game. Again, not that they won't develop the skills necessary, but it's not there - yet. Can you call Xavier Ouellet a 'blue-chip'? Maybe. He's probably at least another AHL season away from significant NHL ice time, though. Personally, I'm very interested to see what happens with Mrazek. He's still on his ELC and is locked up with another year beyond that, but everything lists him as 'NHL ready' now. Howard's got a long contract, though, one that will burn through Mrazek's RFA years. Seems like something's gotta give there...

 

As far as naming a GM replacement, it's useless. It wouldn't matter who I named, it wouldn't be good enough. GMs get replaced in the NHL, a lot, and by guys who many fans don't know until they get there. Again, I guess I just disagree that the only guy good enough to run the Red Wings is Holland. Way back when, I had heard a rumor that the next Wings GM was going to be Yzerman, but they wanted him to 'prove' himself with another team first. Tampa extended him by four years so his contract will be up the same time as Holland's now... 

 

You are contradicting yourself. You are upset that the Wings are sitting back, yet calling out Chicago and LA as perfect examples of the way it should be done. Like I said above, it took Chicago 11 years to complete their rebuild In that time I don't recall any major UFA signings until the end.

 

Based on this logic, if you consider this year 5 of the re-build (which is a HUGE stretch), then are you saying you would be okay with it taking the Wings until 2020 to become contenders because that is what the Blackhawks did? But that goes against your point of sitting back and waiting just waiting for talent to develop.

 

If you want to read it as contradiction, have at it. I understand that the starting points are different, the Wings are a playoff team - not a team vying for a lottery draft pick. I agree, trading everyone for draft picks and starting over would be a bad idea, but then Holland should fill the holes. That's what Bowman did when he took over Chicago in 2009 and it's what Lombardi did when he got to LA in 2006. Chicago had to completely retool their roster after winning the Cup in 2010 due to cap issues. They kept plugging, though, and won another Cup, have made more changes and are a perennial contender. LA made at least a couple high-profile changes after winning in 11-12 and they cashed in again last year and Lombardi has been praised as a model GM. Can you rebuild from the ground up? Sure. Do you have to rebuild that way? No. In fact, what percentage of either of those teams was originally drafted by either LA or CHI during their last Cup wins? 50%, just over? Both Lombardi and Bowman mix solid draft/develop strategies with trades and FAs. Look at the Wings roster going into the season, based on NHL.com's projected lineup 20/23 were drafted or originally signed by the Wings (Weiss, Cleary & Gustavsson are the only ones not from the system). That's great to see that it can be done - but that defines 'sitting back and just waiting for talent to develop'. And, yes, I'm against it because it does take a long time to see any pay off... It's a credit to the Wings (and Holland) that it's worked this long, but as DickieDunn points out - it's a ticking time bomb...

 

Actually, you said: "The Wings don't have the guys that other teams want, no matter how rosy we make our prospects sound. We have a ton of depth- and role-guys, but not the excess of blue-chip prospects teams in rebuild mode want in return and it becomes easier and easier for teams to turn down a trade with Wings that revolves around Johan Franzen and Riley Sheahan for a top-tier guy..."

 

The bolded part is a very clear opinion and I responded to that. I listed examples of players that it was reported that other teams definitely wanted and asked about. I didn't take anything out of context. The part where you wrote after: "but not the excess of blue-chip prospects teams in rebuild mode want in return" Is a grammatical jumble (also, why are we only trading with teams on the rebuild?). If you meant to say that the wings have a couple blue chip prospects, but not enough to spare, that kind of goes against the bolded part. But, if that  what you meant, I still disagree.

 

Z-D-Franzen

Nyquist-Weiss-Mantha

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Miller-Helm-Abby

 

That's us up front in 2015 and probably until 2017 baring any trades or UFA pick ups (Glendening for Miller if we let him go after his contract, Helm and Abby will likely be resigned after 2015-16). That makes Pukinnen at least an excess high prospects, There's no place for Andreas Athanasiou, Larkin, or Janmark until at least 3 years (if Datsyuk retires).They're really good prospects and that might make them considered excess blue chips. It is a hard argument, though, because there is no real definition of blue chip and we don't know fully what other teams are asking for. I think its at least safe to say that people would want our 15th over all pick, Larkin.

 

On defence, it's a much easier argument. We have 7 roster players signed. DD, BIg E, Smith and Kronwall seem to be solid for the longer term. We have 5 high prospects (Marchenko, Sproul, Oulette, Backman, Jansen). Some can and will be traded or will make roster players expendable.

 

What I said was in response to a comment which suggested nobody wanted to trade with the Wings. My comment was that the Wings did not have what teams were looking for in NHL-ready prospects. Would a team want Dylan Larkin or Andreas Athanasiou? Absolutely. Will they give up a top-6 NHL forward for one of them and a draft pick? Not likely. Could we get a top-6 forward for Anthony Mantha and a draft pick? I think we could... [Of course, I'm not suggesting that we should...]

 

Again, if you want to call everyone a blue-chip, that's fine. I think of blue-chips as NHL-ready (at least) or, if they are NHLers, top-6-ready. Based on NHL.com's projected line-up, 2 prospects will be in the top-6 (Tatar & Nyquist) with Jurco taking a 3rd line spot. I'm interested to see how they use Mantha in training camp. Based on what I've read, he should be ready for second line action as you suggest, but Babcock usually doesn't like to give that kind of responsibility to a rookie if he doesn't have to. I tend to think Mantha will end up spending at least a little time in GR because of it. Beyond that, most of the guys with even an inkling of top-6 potential are 2+ years out. Will they develop into blue-chippers? Maybe.

 

I wasn't trying to make it sound bleak, just that the Wings don't have everything that everyone is looking for...

 

Taking a team like TB or Dallas and improving it is a lot easier than what Holland is trying to do.  I'm not sure how people trying to compare the three of them can't see that.  Let me know when either of them guide a team to the Cup.  Holland is juggling a time bomb right now, eventually it's going to blow up and the wings are going to crash, but so far he's done a hell of a job keeping the team from falling off into the league basement while overseeing a team that had the core age out, half the payroll cut, then start seeing the new core aging out, and he still has several good to great prospects coming up.  The one concern I have is a lack of top line center potential, unless Larkin turns into one soon.

 

On the TB/Dallas comparison, yes and no. On the surface, yes, improving a bottom-feeder is 'easier', but ultimately all three GMs face similar challenges, especially during the salary cap era. Again, the point of my original comparison wasn't to say one is 'better', but to suggest that Holland had taught these guys how to be creative and work themselves out of tough situations, which, to date, they both have...

 

I couldn't agree more that Holland is playing with fire. I think he's relying too much on developing everything internally. As I said previously, 20/23 will be guys drafted or originally signed by the Wings. There has to be balance...


In Topic: Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

26 August 2014 - 04:00 PM

The Wings absolutely have blue chip pieces that teams want to trade for. There were many reports over the summer of other teams calling and inquiring about Mantha, Nyquist and Tatar. We could get something very good for them. But, with the potential of those players, management has decided that it would be better in the long run to keep them. I for one support that because I really those 3 and none of the player mentioned in possible trades have seemed to be a perfect, no risk fit for us (Edler, Myers, etc...). Besides I like the look of our D prospects.

 

So... I said that we had blue chips, just not an excess. It's easy to take out of context, but as I said, it's not that team's don't want to trade with Detroit. Detroit doesn't have the assets to give up. At some point, though, a decision needs to be made on which guys fill the same roles and who can be moved. I think, realistically, it's unlikely that Jurco, Tatar, Nyquist, and Mantha all play in the top 6 in Detroit on a Stanley Cup winning team (especially with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Weiss, and Franzen signed for the near future). That should give some flexibility to move someone (or two) out. I'm ok with it not happening, yet, but at some point a direction needs to be decided on that the team build to that plan...

 

Saying "Sign UFA's" is easy, but the reality of the situation is that in 2014 the players available in UFA are typically average/above average players who are paid like they are borderline elite, I don't believe these types of players are necessarily the answer in the post cap era, in this era I believe the answer is grooming your own home grown talent and supplementing it with UFA's when the right player for the right price is available, otherwise these types of moves can be absolutely crippling to a team. We are coming off a year where Matt Niskanen & Paul Stastny headlined a class, nothing against them as players but we aren't talking Suter/Parise here. The reason why you cant answer the question is because that magic player was not there. The closest person is probably Suter, but signing anyone to a 14 deal right before a CBA was about to be negotiated would have been extremely risky and I am glad we didn't land him.

 

We took a gamble on Weiss, and while he does have years to come around, I think this shows you how just signing a UFA doesn't fix everything.

 

I find it ironic that you use LA and Chicago in your points of comparison, but you are frustrated that we are not winning now. Chicago and LA did not become elite team overnight, they were very bad, for a very long time. LA didn't make the playoffs for 7 years, until there most recent winning way started (i'm talking 7 years to get back in to playoffs, not going deep or winning cups), Chicago (with the one exception of '02) didn't make the playoffs for 11 years.

 

We are in a re-build, people need to accept it. The difference between us and others of the past is that we just aren't horsesh*t doing it. We could go all in and trade Kronwall, Zetterberg, Datsyuk etc. but what they are doing is hoping that our kids can become great, while the vets are still elite or close to it, plus using these vets to give guidance to the kids that are coming up.  Its almost as if sustaining our winning ways to a degree is hurting us, because its resulting in people failing to see the re-build. I'm sorry, but I dont want to be Edmonton, or what Chicago and LA were and be very bad for a very long time. Having a quick turn-around where we dont need to just unload everyone, and are still making the playoffs in an era of parity where anything can happen, is a nice way of doing it!

 

Lastly, as far as comparing Holland to Yzerman and Nill, this is fair buts lets wait a couple of years. Other then a final 4 a few years ago, Yzerman hasn't done anything yet. Since that final 4 TB didnt make the playoffs, and then were swept first round. I admit they appear to be going in the right direction, but its results that matter.

Nill....same thing. I love the moves he is making, but at the end of the day all Dallas has accomplished is an 8th seed where they were bounced first round.

Please don't take this as me putting either of these guys down, the moves appear to be good ones, but lets wait and see.

 

UFAs fill holes. Plain and simple. They don't cost draft picks or roster players, they cost money. Detroit spends a lot of it, usually right up to the cap. Holland hasn't used one to fill a real hole in several years. Yes, we took a shot on Weiss, and Alfie got to play with his buddy, Z. As I originally pointed out, Holland hasn't gotten impact out more than a couple signings in the last few years. I understand that Niskanen and Stastny aren't Bobby Orr and Wayne Gretzky, but we need a defenseman and goal scorer. I don't mind that they didn't get headliners, but I'm less than impressed that we got Kyle Quincey back and a couple of Arz (Phoenix) throw-aways on 2-way deals... Holland addressed nothing. And even after signing Dekeyser and probably bringing Alfie back, we'll have cap space left - along with the same holes in the roster.

 

I don't believe that an UFA signing 'fixes everything', either. That's why I can't really name names from the past few UFA classes. It would be easy to say - sign Suter, but a better defense doesn't necessarily equate to success. Sign Parise doesn't automatically create more wins. It's a combined effort and a willingness to acknowledge the weaknesses and address them adequately. Do you really believe that re-signing Quincey makes the defense better? Three years ago, it was easy to sit back and say 'I'm glad we didn't trade the future just to get into the playoffs' and now that's all we're doing...

 

I think Chicago and LA are the perfect examples. They addressed their needs and corrected them. Both started with a culture shift to look at the future and build towards a goal of winning the Cup (assume this is Detroit's goal). Both began by building solid systems with deep prospect pools (which Detroit already has). Both enhanced their drafts by bringing in guys through trades and free agency which filled holes (the part missing recently in Detroit). They also both addressed their teams by balancing their rosters with a coaching staff to maximize their chemistry (could that be part of Detroit's 'problem'). I don't think Detroit is in a rebuild, I think they lack direction. It's largely part of the issue San Jose has. Management sees the identity of the team from several years ago while the on-ice product is ready to move on...

 

I think Dallas and Tampa Bay are on the right track. Both Yzerman and Nill have begun to change the culture. Will it happen overnight? No, but who really expects that. Detroit was an 8 seed that got bounced in the first round last year, too. Nill brought in Spezza and Hemsky to address shortcomings. Yzerman was pretty active as well. We resigned Kyle Quincey...

 

You keep saying he has to move on but you haven't listed a single possible solution/alternative that's available that would benefit us.

 

Seriously? You want a name and a resume? There are a lot as number9 points out.

 

Holland, of course, will have a better track record than all of them - not many guys still around who might be 'better' in that sense...

 

My point is, the organization would benefit from a new set of eyes and I'd be surprised if there's not a list of candidates out there. Leadership sets the tone. Holland needs to and could set it. He hasn't, in my opinion. My opinion would probably change if he does... 


In Topic: Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

26 August 2014 - 10:21 AM

Another thing I'm getting a little tired of is comparing Holland to Yzerman and/or Nill.  Apples and oranges.  The Lightening and Stars had almost nowhere to go but up to begin with.  They also aren't facing the same adversity as Holland - little cap space and an unwillingness to trade with the Wings.  These are pretty sizable barriers to contend with.  Also, neither has the pressure from the fans that the Wings organization has.  I'm not a Holland fanboy by any means, but let's be reasonable.

And since neither Nill or Yzerman is available to Detroit, what's a better option than Holland at this point?

 

I disagree that it isn't a fair comparison. Both of these guys left the organization, so they gained most of their perspective from within Detroit's group. That they've been able to apply their experience to varied situations is exactly what I want to compare. They took what they learned (from Holland) in Detroit and have applied it elsewhere, in different situations.

 

Holland has had the luxury of ownership who allows him to spend to the cap ceiling and any cap space limitations (or bad contracts) are the result of Holland's planning and management. And, I'm not sure that there is an unwillingness of teams to trade with the Wings, I think that perception is one of the issues. The Wings don't have the guys that other teams want, no matter how rosy we make our prospects sound. We have a ton of depth- and role-guys, but not the excess of blue-chip prospects teams in rebuild mode want in return and it becomes easier and easier for teams to turn down a trade with Wings that revolves around Johan Franzen and Riley Sheahan for a top-tier guy... [Guys like Tatar, Jurco, Mantha, Nyquist, etc. come off the table because they are needed in addition to whatever the Wings are trying to trade for...]

 

That's really my biggest knock against Holland, he's been there long enough. Move on. He has nothing to prove. He's won Cups, he's got the longest playoff streak, he's drafted HOFers, etc. etc. etc. Let's get some fresh eyes on the organization and get ahead of the curve again in order to stay where we're at...


In Topic: Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

26 August 2014 - 08:58 AM

Jurco, Ouellet, Sproul say hi

That makes a rate of 1 a year since 08-09! Pretty sure that's better than most teams...especially considering we draft middle of the pack, low, or give away our first every year

 

Jurco may get some top 6 minutes, but he's still at least a year (or an injury) away from that as full time and could use some more of the patented Wing development. Ouellet has an outside shot at top 4 and Sproul needs work to get to his potential. Both are great prospects, don't get me wrong, but they aren't close to being NHL-ready top 4 defensemen. And it's not 'better than most' teams, it's about average at best. And that's the thing, I'm not going to be happy with 'average'. The Wings have built a culture of winning and being elite. I don't think that's a bad thing, and I think at some point, you have to look at the leadership critically to determine whether they are in a holding patter or maximizing the potential.

 

Let me ask you, who are the UFA's you wish he signed over the past few years? Weiss and Alfie were two of the best last year (projection wise) and this year was filled with above average/good players.

 

It's an impossible question to answer, of course. The Wings four biggest 'holes' over the past couple of years have been lack of a power forward, a second-line center, replacing Lidstrom, and increased 'grit' from the bottom lines. Have any of them been adequately addressed through draft, trade or free agency? I'm not suggesting that a 'perfect' solution is always available, of course, but going into the current season, we still don't have an experienced 'power forward', Weiss is a year into a contract with 26 GP and 4 pts as a 'second-line center', replacing Lidstrom is, of course, improbable if not impossible, but we haven't even brought in a defensemen from outside the organization, and Abby led the team in hits (59th in the league). Acting like we don't have areas to improve in doesn't make them go away... In the past few years, something could have been done.

 

I really wish people would stop with this, "well we haven't done ANYTHING in the past 5 years", blah, blah, blah... How many times does it have to be said and how the hell is it not obvious to some of you that the Detroit Red Wings are in the midst of their second rebuild in the past two decades, without once missing the playoffs?... That is not that impressive at all... I mean, most teams in the league have done that haven't they?... NOPE, not even close... The Wings streak is at 23 consecutive seasons without missing the playoffs, after that there is the Sharks at 10, Penguins at 8, Bruins 7, Blackhawks 6, Kings 5, Rangers 4, Blues 3, and no other team has made the playoffs more than the past 2 seasons straight. That is absolutely insane when you actually think about it... To continue to make the playoffs for this long, through two rebuilds is nothing short of astonishing, and I'm willing to bet that the Wings make it at least another 7 years to beat the Boston Bruins 29 year playoff streak from '67-'96.

 

People that do not see the brightness at the end of this tunnel, that has been the past 5 years, are pessimists to their truest form. How can you not be thrilled as a Red Wings fan, not only because of the "stupid, not-at-all-impressive streak", but because of all of the talent that we have coming up over the next few seasons.

 

To say that there is no way that Jurco can turn out to be as good as Datsyuk is very bleak in my opinion. Jurco has accomplished more than Datsyuk had accomplished at the tender age of 21. Jurco has already got his first taste of NHL action and played quite well for a rookie, while Datsyuk wasn't even drafted until he was 20 and didn't play his first season in the NHL until he was 23. They both have great hands, obviously Pav gets the edge there though since he has better hands than anyone that has ever played the game. Jurco definitely has the size advantage, as he is 3 inches taller and already closing in on 200 lbs., whereas Pav is around the same now but came into the league as a rookie somewhere between 175-180 lbs.

 

I also think that Nyquist has the potential to become somewhat of a Zetterberg lite. Nyquist is slightly behind Zetterberg in production at the same age but he does have a slightly better point percentage. In Zetterberg's first two seasons he put up 87 points in 140 games, 0.621 points per game, while in Nyquist' first three partial seasons, he put up 61 points in 97 games, 0.628 points per game. Gus has the same drive and determination that makes Hank such a world class player, and he also seems to have the same type of leadership qualities. They're both approximately the same height and weight when they were the same age, while Hank has put on some muscle over the years, Gus still has plenty of room to grow as well.

 

The Wings definitely have a few potential future stars up front in Nyquist, Jurco and Mantha, but to go along with that I think we have much more depth coming than we have ever had before. Sheahan, Tatar, Pulkkinen and Athanasiou are all potential top 6 players, and Nastasiuk, Bertuzzi and Callahan could be great 3rd and 4th line players. I'm not quite sure where Janmark, Nosek, and Frk will fit in but they're quality players as well. Then you have guys like Larkin and Turgeon that we just drafted that I think could be along their way in about five years as well.

 

On the back end we also have a few potential future stars in Smith, DeKeyser and Sproul as well as guys like Ouellet, Backman, Marchenko and Jensen. And of course between the pipes, we have Mrazek coming along quite nicely, and he could be a future top 5 goalie in this league.

 

I realize that all of this, as of right now, is just "potential" but with as many high end prospects that we have, at least a few of them have to turn into quality players. We have one of the best prospect pools in the entire league because we have one of the best general managers in the league, as well as top scouts and development teams in the league (credit to Holland for putting this management team together). I'll never understand some of the constant negative attitudes in here, but to each their own. What a boring forum this would be without you guys lol.

 

Great post! A lot of what you point out is why I'm a Wings fan. The only thing you're missing (in my opinion) is a little balance. It's not 100% rose-colored glasses, 100% of the time...

 

It's great to make the playoffs, but let's win some Cups... Yes, 23 years in a row is AMAZING, but the Blackhawks have 2 Cups in their current run, the Kings have 2 Cups in their current run. Yes, we have 4 during ours and 6 appearances. Remember, in our first six years of the streak, we had 0 Cups and only 1 appearance... Creating an elite, winning culture is great and maintaining it will be increasingly difficult in the current NHL. I question whether of not Holland is the guy to do it. Look at how Yzerman has adapted in Tampa Bay or at how Nill has adapted in Dallas, why hasn't Detroit made any changes?

 

Prospects are great, but judging their career after their first couple of years is dangerous. The list of players who accomplished more than Datsyuk at 21 or 23 is long to say the least. Does that mean they all developed into HOF-caliber players? C'mon... Jurco is obviously a great prospect, right along with Nyquist, Mantha and several others. But are they legitimate top 6 players in the current NHL? The forward depth in the system falls off after that. Are there guys who could potentially develop into top 6 forwards? Sure, but not in the next year or two. The same can be said on the back end. Sproul and Ouellet and a couple others will certainly be NHLers, but will the be top 4 defensemen on a Cup contender?

 

I'm not trying to perpetuate a 'constant negative attitude', but rather offer a critical overview. The Wings have a history of developing the best and supplementing with trades and FA signings. Since the last Cup, it seems like we've 'tried' the same approach and it's not getting better. We're being forced into developing more of the top-end and the list of teams with continued success building only from within is short about as short as the number of teams with 20+ seasons in the playoffs.

 

I can be content with where the Wings are... but it's also hard not to want to be cheering for a team where they could be...


In Topic: Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

18 August 2014 - 01:19 PM

 

To preface my own point, none of us are actually in the room when an offer is made. So other then hearing rumors and speculation, none of know for sure what was offered or what was turned down.

 

Rumor has it that Holland did try to sign some of these UFA's, but once the term/$ amount got ridiculous with the exception of Suter he walked away which I am personally extremely thankful for, even in the case of Suter (no thank you 14 years).

 

Also, I don't get why people speak as if Holland hasn't gotten a UFA in years. The fact that he didn't sign Boyle, Niskanen, or Erhoff this season is not a big deal, and each player had his own reason of going where they did. Last year the top UFA's were LeCavalier, Iginla, Alfie, Fillpulla, Weiss, and Clarkson, and he signed Alfie and Weiss two of the biggest out there. I'm sure some people are reading this saying "you're saying those are big names lol" to which I respond "you're right, buts that free agency now". This years class was "headlined" by Niskanen and Stasny, middle of the road to good players being overpaid to contracts that teams are going to be looking to buy-out or trade away in a couple years (In the case of LeCavalier it didnt even take 1 full season). Unless you are giving a vet a couple years, anyone at the top of a UFA class is going to be overpaid.

 

I understand that nobody is in the room, but you can't give the guy a pass on the bad because of it and only 'see' the good when someone signs. Ultimately, Holland's track record in FA signings isn't that good the last several years.

 

List of Holland's big signings (~$2M+/year) since the last Cup:

08-09 - Marian Hossa (1yr - not re-signed)

09-10 - None

10-11 - None

11-12 - Ian White (2yrs - not re-signed)

12-13 - Jordin Tootoo (3yrs - compliance buy-out)

12-13 - Carlo Colaiacovo (2yrs - compliance buy-out)

13-14 - Daniel Alfredsson (1yr - not re-signed as yet)

13-14 - Stephen Weiss (5yrs - played 26 games and scored 4 pts in year 1)

14-15 - Kyle Quincey (2yrs for a player Detroit was ready to walk away from)

 

The Suter/Parise snub was at least 'understandable' given the same money/term from Minnesota and the connection the players felt. Having Niskanen, Boyle, and Erhoff walk away from potentially more money in Detroit (in some reports) is more concerning. The fault isn't all on Holland, for sure, but top management should be looking in the mirror and trying to determine how to get better regardless of where you lay blame.

 

And, as someone else points out, FA isn't the only key to success. You have to draft well, too. So how many top-6 forwards or top-4 defensemen has Holland picked up in the last six-seven drafts?

 

2008-09 - Gustav Nyquist

2009-10 - Tomas Tatar (maybe)

2010-11 - None

2011-12 - None

2012-13 - None

2013-14 - Anthony Mantha (projected)

 

Drafts are much harder to judge especially for a draft-and-develop team like Detroit. The Wings do have a couple kids who still project well, too. But a lot don't. They are bottom-six / bottom pair grinders. It's drafting by a team/GM which relies on supplementing his home-grown talent with pick-of-the-litter FAs. You can't draft grinders and then not come through on the FAs...

 

The Wings haven't been a team which settles for 'serviceable' over the past few years. Is that what Detroit is becoming?