Losing Matthias has had zero impact. He's not good.
He made the NHL and we didn't re-sign Bertuzzi. I wasn't commenting on Matthias as player, but on the trade being an insignificant one for us.
Pre cap we were. Now were not and the team is on a steady decline. We also use to sign notable free agents.
It was typically nyquist Tatar or mantha as the starting price from what I heard and yes if that's what it took only one of those three plus different prospects it should've been done(more so Tatar or nyquist over mantha IMO). But it would depend on the player were recieving and contract status etx etx
Yup. And precap worlds are not the same as post cap world bud. Spending is a whole lot more conservative now. You can't compare the teams actions now to their actions then. Those teams operated under different rules.
And we haven't been on the decline since our trading ended either. Our trading culture ended with Lang and the lockout in 04, and that was coming out of 1st and 2nd round exits in 03 and 04. That continued till 06 and ended in 09. We improved just fine and won a cup without significant trading or selling the prospect pool, in fact it was prospects we had developed who helped contribute to that cup.
Ehrhoff, Niskanen are a big deal because they would have fixed an ever increasing hole since Lidas left.
Holland and some fans need to realize the time where players would come here for less are over. The Wings nowadays are just one of the teams asking for their service and if the money isn't comparable or hence better they won't sign. Overpayment and taking risks are part of a GMs job, UFA is also known as overpayment day but guess what ? I would have given Suter, Parise even 15 years if it means we are getting to see another cup for Mr. I, Pasha and Z after they've done so much for this former TOP destination in the NHL.
Whats the point of having capsapce if the top guys aren't hitting UFA anymore or you aren't going to use it t o your advantage ? Add to that it's not like the capspace has been used wisely this off-season either, overpayment for 2 players and third on the cusp of getting re-signed which doesn't leave a lot for a local hero (Danny D) is that smart cap management ? I don't think so.
Also Holland didn't take a risks and still lost a trades by a landslide (Poilé absolutely schooled him) so losing a big trade is much better than getting schooled by another gm, as did Yzerman two years ago..
As for McDavid the competition is fierce and tough you need to outtank: Buffalo, Florida, Winnipeg, Edmonton, New York, Calgary and maybe even Phoenix but keep in mind the second pick is also a great one Eichel will be a star in this league too.
I think you and I have a HUGE difference in opinion on the skill level of Erhoff and Niskanen.
Niskanen has played in the NHL for 7 seasons and his points totals are the following: 26, 35, 15, 10, 21, 14, 46.
His 46 points last season statistically seem more like an outlier then a true reflection of his ability. This should be a huge red flag to GM's and I am glad Holland didnt give in to the pressure and outbid Washington, I dont want a guy for 7 years for the kind of money that Washington threw at him. If an impact D-man was available in UFA (say a Shea Weber caliber D-man), I would be the first person to say sign him to a long term deal for top dollars, but Niskanen is not that guy. He would not be the difference in us winning a cup or not winning a cup. He may make us slightly better for maybe a few years, then his cap hit would hinder us a few years into his contract.
Ehroff is 32 and appears to be regressing. I believe (I could be wrong) he saw the year Niskanen had offensively playing with Crosby/Malkin and co. and signed a one year deal hoping to up his value so next year he can sign a huge contract. Also, not a guy I feel puts us over the top. I would have loved if we got him at 1 year, 4mil but from what I have heard he wanted much more term/$ to play for the Wings. Glad we didn't overpay.
Whats the point of having capspace? So when your core become UFA/RFA, you can sign them to long term deals rather then lose them. I would be totally fine with signing the guys above to 1 year deals to see what happens, but that wasn't an option. I don't want a stupid signing now to hurt us in 2016 or 2020 etc. when we need to re-sign guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Mantha etc.
The Nashville trade.......it may end up being a horrible trade, I'm not going to argue either way, but you cant know that now. In 3 years we will know if that trade was bad or not.
But the Wings tried to sign many of those guys. Are you implying that the "Good move" was to sign an inept GM who cannot sign the players he targets? Makes no sense.
To preface my own point, none of us are actually in the room when an offer is made. So other then hearing rumors and speculation, none of know for sure what was offered or what was turned down.
Rumor has it that Holland did try to sign some of these UFA's, but once the term/$ amount got ridiculous with the exception of Suter he walked away which I am personally extremely thankful for, even in the case of Suter (no thank you 14 years).
Also, I don't get why people speak as if Holland hasn't gotten a UFA in years. The fact that he didn't sign Boyle, Niskanen, or Erhoff this season is not a big deal, and each player had his own reason of going where they did. Last year the top UFA's were LeCavalier, Iginla, Alfie, Fillpulla, Weiss, and Clarkson, and he signed Alfie and Weiss two of the biggest out there. I'm sure some people are reading this saying "you're saying those are big names lol" to which I respond "you're right, buts that free agency now". This years class was "headlined" by Niskanen and Stasny, middle of the road to good players being overpaid to contracts that teams are going to be looking to buy-out or trade away in a couple years (In the case of LeCavalier it didnt even take 1 full season). Unless you are giving a vet a couple years, anyone at the top of a UFA class is going to be overpaid.
"Tanking" implies losing on purpose. Whether it's players underperforming, coaches using the wrong players or strategies, or management making moves to make the team worse, it's done with the intent of finishing lower in the standings and getting a higher draft pick. Draft lotteries were invented to reduce the chances of this strategy working. It was done more often in other sports, where high draft picks almost always become impact players right away. The Indianapolis Colts' "Suck for Luck" season is one of the most recent examples.
The Red Wings did not tank to get Steve Yzerman, and there are two obvious reasons why: 1, the Wings had been terrible for almost two decades, making the playoffs twice in 17 years and only winning one series. They didn't lose on purpose in "82-'83, they just couldn't win. 2, the Wings were heavily targeting local product Pat LaFontaine with the #4 pick, but he went #3 to the Islanders. Yzerman was the consolation prize.
Tanking has been around for much longer than salary caps. I think it's tougher to do today, between the cap and roster/player movement limitations.
That article seems to conclude most forwards peak around 24, which is precisely the one of the ages I cited. How is that considerably off at all? The article states that 21-22 forwards show good production in the NHL, but don't get played because their defense is under-developed, aka they aren't ready.
-Restocking the prospect shelves. Let's face it, the drafting was pretty hit and miss during the early to mid 2000's. Kenny doesn't get full credit here, but he was part of turning around the prospect pool.
-Being smart with prospect progression. I know a lot of people hate the whole overripe thing, but Nyquist and Tatar are examples of players who have greatly benefited from gaining experience in the minors.
-Signing younger players to solid deals. I think his "bridge deals" are a real positive. Guys like Zetterberg, Filppula and Kronwall all got them, now it's guys like Tatar and most likely Nyquist next year. He seems to be good with the younger player's deals.
-Rebuilding on the fly. Most teams need to tank, sell off their assets and completely alter their team. Detroit's managed to keep their superstars, and nearly all of their promising young players while staying competitive. Whatever your definition of competitive is, Detroit hasn't been a basement dweller - that's a plus in my eyes.
Things I don't think are Ken Holland's fault:
-Missing out on big name free agents. The salary cap has changed the playing field in the NHL, but I also think that the attitudes of players have changed. It's almost as if they want teams to chase them. The whole Suter thing was mind-boggling to me. You're a GM and you get on a plane to go talk to a player? Guys wanting to play in their hometowns, with their best friends, etc. is out of Ken's hands, I think. Does he need to change his approach, perhaps? It's a situation now where players want three things: comfort, comradery and cap hit. The one thing Kenny can control is giving out money, so luring players here is going to be a matter of over payment, I think.
Things I want to slap Ken Holland for:
-Misguided loyalty to veteran players. The list of players could go on and on, but we know the deal here.
-Bringing back familiar talent. I think you can also accuse Kenny of playing it "too safe" here. Bringing back talent to take the places of prospects he feels aren't ready yet. It's kind of a double-edged sword, but at times I think Kenny holds guys back too much. It was great for Gus and Tatar to stay down, but then the team also had that mess at the beginning of the year with Bert, Sammy and Cleary taking up spots.
-Poor judgement with trades and contracts. The Quincey and Legwand trades still bother me. Giving out 3 million dollar, NTC contracts to 35+ year-old vets, and a 4.25 million dollar contract to a pylon.
All things considered, I don't think there's another guy for the job right now, but that doesn't mean I think Kenny is totally effective in his post. He's done a lot of great things for this team, and recently some not-so-great things. If he could just alter his approach to trading, I think he would be totally set.
This team is entering a situation where the star players will be done in a few seasons, and there's quite a bit of talent waiting in the wings to take their place. The question is, which guys are going to become legitimate superstars, and what is Kenny going to do with the excess talent? I think Nyquist, Mantha, Jurco and Tatar all have potential to be star forwards on this team, DeKeyser, Ouellet and Sproul strike me as the future of the blueline, but who knows what will happen when they're not insulated anymore. Kenny's going to have some big decisions to make with the talent on this team, and they're going to determine if this entire "rebuild on the fly" process was really effective or not.
Since taking over as Red Wings GM in July 1997, Holland, 58, has put together a team that has won more regular-season games (746) and postseason games (115) than any other NHL team.
"I'm proud of our 23 years of making the playoffs, and I'm excited about challenges going forward," he said. "We've been a team, the last two years, that's been a bubble team. I believe, if you get in and you get hot, it's wide open.
"Our goal going into 2014-15 is, hopefully, we can compete with the top teams in the East, with Boston and Tampa Bay, and Montreal, which went to the final four. We've got a tough division. We're trying to compete for a playoff spot, be a contender.
"At the same time, we're also trying to develop young players to build a core much like we did in late '80s, early '90s that carried us for a decade, and then again in the late '90s. I'm optimistic and excited about our younger players, that they will continue to develop into Detroit Red Wings players."
In a statement released by the team, owners Mike and Marian Ilitch cited Holland's success, saying that "Ken is regarded as one of the premier executives in the National Hockey League and has been instrumental in the success of the Red Wings over the last two decades. Marian and I are extremely pleased that he will continue to lead our hockey club over the next four years.
"We feel strongly that stability is key to the success of any organization, and having this new agreement in place with Ken is important to the organization and its future."
Really like it, our farm system has never looked better. The last few years haven't been ideal, but our playoff streak is still intact and Ken Holland is the reason. There isn't a franchise in the league that never has a few average seasons between great ones. His legacy is going on the line here though, if this team struggles and wastes the last few years of Dats/Zetterberg there aren't going to be fans lining up to reminding us of the 3 Stanley Cups we won with him and having the best team in the league from 1997-2010 which is unfortunate. Time will tell if Ken Holland has a master plan with this franchise, or if he's just meddling his last years in mediocrity hoping his past success will be his legacy.
My thoughts are you never know what you have until it's gone, and for me I think that rings true for Holland. Fans in Detroit have incredible expectations, which is understood, but I don't know of many hockey GM's in the history of the league that could satisfy this fan bases appetite of not only winning, but winning Stanley Cups for over 20 years. Notice I said the history of the league, I don't think there is a better option for the team right now other than Holland, he knows the players we have in the system, if our goal is to win it all soon he gives us our best option. If we want to tank, and surely waste the last years of Datsyuk/Zetterberg, and hopefully build up to a playoff franchise in 5 years then we should get a young GM and give him the reigns, I just don't think that's that right plan.
I'd add that in getting Gretzky you wouldn't sacrifice team defense, only individual defense. Individually he's worse than Yzerman, no doubt. But he's so much better of a possession player that your team defense would improve simply by virtue of having to play in the defensive zone so much less.
But other than that, I agree with most of what you've said above.
His plus/minus would imply otherwise. The guy was a consistent minus player throughout the last decade of his career (ie the 90s), which at the most fundamental level tells me that the strength of his possession game wasn't enough to keep the puck out of his own zone, nor out of his own net. The opposition consistently outscored his line. And I know +/- is a team stat and blah blah blah, but you'd think for someone who holds almost every offensive record in the books, and continued to produce at an elite level up until his retirement, he would have been able to have at the very least a decent plus minus for half those seasons, especially because that negative +/- was pretty consistent over three different teams (and who knows how many linemates) in the 90s.
The guy was an offensive god, but his defense was little to non existent. The real question is had the Wings acquired him, would he have been Bowman's example for the Wings to adapt a two-way game as Yzerman did, or would he have continued to do what made him famous? The last part is why in retrospect, I would have stuck with Yzerman (although in 1989 I would have made the trade 10 times out of 10).
Kip, you absolutely did blow my mind... I have absolutely no idea what you are arguing... I say one thing and then you go on a rant about something completely irrelevant to what I am saying... Mind = Blown... I honestly have no idea whatsoever what your point was in listing all the players that would and wouldn't have helped us due to injury... Completely lost...
No Frank, you're right... There definitely weren't any fans of those teams blaming their short comings in those seasons to injuries... Not one... Only us Wings fans would do such a ludicrous thing...
I'm not going to go back and forth about whether or not this team will face a significant number of injuries or not - I don't think any of us can predict that. I think it'd be pretty insane to see the number of injuries we did last year.
I will say that this is the youngest the team has looked in years. The superstars are getting long in the tooth, but this team is also going to be able to lean on younger bodies more than ever. Does that stop a freak accident from happening to Z, Pav, etc? No. I think it minimizes the wear and tear, though.
I loved the way the Kid Line played during portions of last season, but I also think that playing Alfredsson on the wing of that 3rd line will benefit Tatar and Sheahan as well. Surrounding the kids with veterans who play the game the "right" way is going to turn them into leaders, and superstars.
Can anyone against signing Alfredsson say they would feel the same way if Cleary had not been signed? It's easy to say, "well stop the damage now, we've already got enough veterans". I don't think that has anything to do with Alfredsson being an effective player, because he was. Reality is, playing are going to get hurt, and Jurco, Pulkkinen, etc. are going to be called up throughout the season. I don't care how old the guy is - I don't see a single reason why you wouldn't bring back your highest scoring forward from the previous season.
The bottom line for me: Alfredsson was an effective player last season. You re-sign effective players.
I guess where we respectfully agree to disagree, is that I believe to build a winner in the NHL nowadays takes much more time than it used to, and I believe because back in the early 2000's all the Wings had to do after a rough patch was make a few signings (ie. Hull, Robitaille etc.), or make a big trade (ie. Hasek, Lang etc.).....that people believe management should be able to do that now. It's simply a different world, and to have those same expectation are unrealistic.
I sort of think of it in terms of marriage and parenthood. The Wings of the 90s and early 2000s were a bachelor who was basically beholden to no one. Then that bachelor got married and became a father. Now he has certain responsibilities. Now every move he makes has to be born of a series of careful considerations. Would he like to spend every weekend with hookers? Maybe. Could he spend every weekend with hookers? Maybe. But, really, he can't. He shouldn't. Because he'd be a bad husband and father. Everything would fall apart.
If it were up to Ken Holland, he'd spend as much of Mike Ilitch's money as he could. Were it up to Ken Holland, he'd trade all his draft picks for all-star acquisitions. Were it up to Ken Holland, there'd be no cap, and we'd have a dynamite team every single season, like back in the 90s and early 2000s. But none of that's doable in the cap era. Every consideration is complex. Every draft pick matters. Realistically, every penny that can be pinched, is pinched. One wrong move can wreck your team - and organization (The All-Important Bottom Line) - for years.
At the end of the day, the Wings were a juggernaut for two straight decades. The cap and our empty prospect cupboards started to catch up with us, and Kenny decided to switch to a retooling plan, the idea being that we tread water for a few years in exchange for another ten years or more of contention. And even then, he's never been fully resigned to simply treading water, because he's gone for Suter, Parise, Edler, Niskanen, et al. I've given him s*** for that for the past couple of years, saying he's a hypocrite and whatnot. But I think all he really wants is to see the Wings win the Cup as soon as possible, same as us. Key thing is, though, he has to be responsible. He has to take a long view of things, has to know when to exercise restraint. He has to do what's best for the club in the long run and in the big picture. I have to give him a lot of credit. Were it me, I'd probably be more like Paul Holmgren, wheeling and dealing but never really getting his team anywhere, and, actually, probably hurting them more than he's helping them.
Uugh, I hate this time of year, little to no Red Wings related news, evident by the hot topics on the go the past week or so... Some of which include threads on ugly Christmas sweaters, clearance merchandise, and favorite player agencies... Is it September yet?...
Anyway, I figured this could involve some interesting discussion so I'll start it off...
12somewhat bold but in my opinion, fairly reasonable Predictions for the Detroit Red Wings 2014-15 Season...
1. Datsyuk and Zetterberg play a combined 150+ games and score a combined 120+ points.
2. Weiss plays 70+ games and scores 25+ goals and 60+ points (career year).
3. Helm plays 70+ games and scores 15+ goals and 35+ points (career year).
5. Cleary plays 50+ games and scores 20+ points, while everyone still ******* and complains about him taking up a roster spot.
6. Tomas Jurco scores 75+ points... in Grand Rapids, winning the Jack A. Butterfield Trophy (MVP).
7. Anthony Mantha spends the year down in Grand Rapids and scores a reasonable (but disappointing to most fans) 40-50 points.
8. Kronwall matches his jersey number, and puts up 55 points (career year), is a finalist for the Norris Trophy but comes up just short.
9. Smith finally starts getting some PP time and explodes putting up 40+ points, while also improving his defensive play.
10. Gustavsson stays relatively healthy but struggles mightily to keep the puck out of the net, Mrazek gets called up and plays out of his mind for 10+ games.
11. Howard plays 60+ games putting up career numbers in every category, is a finalist for the Vezina Trophy but comes up just short.
12. The Detroit Red Wings finally have a reasonably healthy year and win the Atlantic Division, finishing 2nd in the East.
Obviously there's not much of a chance that all these predictions come true, hence them being of the bold variety, and I'm sure there are some people here that would say that there is no way that any of them come true... But I'm willing to bet at least half of them happen or come relatively close...