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Son of a Wing

Member Since 09 Aug 2003
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#2686332 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by krsmith17 on 26 September 2016 - 08:25 AM

What about some sort of three way deal involving both Anaheim and Winnipeg? Something along the lines of...

 

To ANA: Nyquist, Marchenko

 

To WPG: Fowler, 1st round pick (DET)

 

To DET - Trouba

 

Anaheim gets their top 6 winger. Winnipeg gets their top 4 left handed defenseman. Detroit gets their top 4 right handed defenseman... I'm not sure if the value in and out would be good for each team, but I don't think it's that far off...




#2686174 Dan Cleary Gets Training Camp Tryout

Posted by Buppy on 20 September 2016 - 02:31 PM

Either Holland is on board with the culture of mediocrity or he's allowing ownership to interfere. If it's the first he should be fired, if it's the second he should have the balls to tell them let me do my job or fire me. Then he has his choice of jobs on teams that want to win.

There is no "culture of mediocrity". Teams have down times. Deal with it.




#2685649 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by kliq on 08 September 2016 - 01:23 AM

What will you say if larkin becomes a legit 1c and in 2-3 years were a legit contender while still holding on to the "meaningless" streak? I'd be happy with 5 more years of sub-par hockey just to take away Boston's record TBH

 

Good point Euro Twins, I'd also like to know what defines the streak as being "meaningless". Maybe Frank Grimes from Letsgowings.com doesn't give a crap about it, but ownership, management, coaches, players etc. take great pride in that streak and its disrespectful to people like Mike Ilitich, Scotty Bowman, Mike Babcock, Ken Holland etc. when its called "meaningless".....its not.

 

With that being said, I am not satisfied with making the playoffs and being eliminated in the first round every year. If we were a team of all older vets and doing this, I would be pissed. However with a core moving forward of Larkin, Mrazek, DD, AA, Mantha, Marchenko, Svechnikov etc. Good secondary and still very young players like Tatar and Nyquist and young guys that still could surprise (ie. XO, Sproul, Jurco, Pulkkinen) I am excited of where this team is going. Now if we traded our young players for a bunch of 29-33 year olds that would make us slightly better this year, I would not be happy, but we are not doing that as like I have said a million times, we are re-building.




#2685648 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by kliq on 08 September 2016 - 01:11 AM

I have zero interest is spinning their wheels and doing nothing, I can watch the Tigers and Lions do that. I want the Wings to be focused on either winning the Cup this year or in 3 years. Right now neither of those options are the focus.
And giving a guy who has never even come closely to 20 goals that much miney for 5 years and a guy who defines fourth liner a four year deal worth almost $2 mil is bad regardless of the deals you compare them to. It's not as bad as this dumb deal isn't a good defense in any way shape or form.
And anyone who questions my fandom because I'm pissed at the culture of mediocrity that's infested the team can bite my shiny metal ass.

 

The Helm deal is not as bad as your little tantrum is making it out to be. If we were paying him to be a goal scorer then yes I would agree with you, but the guy brings much more to this team then just scoring goals which is evident by the fact that other teams were willing to pay him as much or more then we did. The Glendening deal is a bit high in salary, but you are making i sound like he is being paid 5 mil/year. These deals are not going to break us.

 

I dont think we will have an issue with paying guys like Larkin and co. as by the time they are due for major increases in pay not only will the cap be up, but guys like Miller, Ott, Green, Kronwall, Smith etc. will be gone and I would be shocked if Zetterberg is not on LTIR as I cant see his back holding up until 2021.

 

I'm not questioning your fandom and you can tell me to "bite your shiny ass" all you want, to me you just sound like a petulant child.
 




#2685623 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by kliq on 07 September 2016 - 06:07 PM

except they're not rebuilding, they're signing middling players to long term deals and blocking young players.

 

I would disagree with this. If they were not re-building they would be trading guys like AA, Mantha etc. for vets in their prime.

The Wings are re-building while trying not to tank (ie. on the fly), and personally this is something I am a fan of as I dont want to be a Columbus, Winnipeg, Buffalo etc. who are absolutely dreadful for 10+ years and are still not contenders.

 

I 100% agree with e-prime, do I agree with every decision that Holland makes? No. But, overall I like what they are doing as they have a lot of young prospects that I believe are going to be legit stars in this league. Hopefully we trade for that d-man, or a guy like Sproul, XO, Russo etc. surprise us and break out to be a top pairing D-man.




#2685609 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by joesuffP on 07 September 2016 - 10:37 AM

Zetts-Nielson-Nyquist
Tatar-Larkin-Abby
Mantha-AA-Vanek
Sheahan-Glen-Helm

Lots of depth at forward

DD-Green
Smith-Marchenko
Kronwall-E

Lots of questions on D. Can Green play efficiently enough at 20+ minutes a night? Can Kronwall bounce back and be a good top 4? Need another RH top 4 badly. Marchenko is likely over his head in the top 4. Adding a RH'd top 4 and ditching E really solidifies all three units

this is the for at time in a long time I'm not that excited for the new hockey season. I have zero confidence that the Wings are going to do.much more than sneak into
the playoffs and lose in 4 or 5. Holland's body of work the last several years has taken the team from contender to mediocre and he hasn't done anything to get them back to contender status. Only two non-rental trades, middle of the roster players signed to long term deals, and almost every free agent has blown up in his face.


Kind of crappy outlook as a fan. Only interested when they're contenders? Would you watch them be a lottery team like you wish they were?

I enjoy these rebuilding years. For this first time since Steve Yzerman we're watching a 20 year old kid be the best player on the team. Mrazek, AA etc. Our best players are the youngest on the team


#2685507 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by krsmith17 on 04 September 2016 - 07:55 PM

It would be Ericsson for me, not even close...


#2685442 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by kliq on 02 September 2016 - 09:42 PM

 

I've constantly said Larkin is the closest thing the Wings have to become a number 1 center. If not overhyping him is being pessimistic so be it. Never ever did I claim to be an expert but I know what type of players I prefer and if I want to look deeper in it, where to find their goals, assists and whatever.

 

Well it's not my fault that Holland decided to trade Chychrun away, he would have instantly been the best defensive prospect the Wings have and something that would have been much needed. Just watch him develop and you will see why I believe the Wings made a mistake trading the pick, as did a lot of other teams by not taking him.

 

Saying that someone is not at the same level, doesn't mean I'm pessimistic it means I'm looking at things rationally. Eichel as great as he is isn't on McDavid level (that guy is just ridiculous), does that mean that Eichel is bad? Heck no, same goes for Larkin there is no shame in maybe not becoming as good as Eichel. Mrazek played one heck of a first half but then really fall of. I'm not going to hype any young goaltender as the next Vezina winner or whatever ridiculous expectations some people are having. And like I've already said I HOPE you are right and Larkin becomes as good as Eichel that would be awesome but I think expecting it is setting yourself up for disappointment, this season will be very telling...I just hope the Wings continue to let him develop at a slow pace instead of making him the number 1 center alredy. If people think Mrazek might be a Vezina winner in the making fine, I think they are setting themselves up for dissapointment.

 

As far as liking players: well did I ever say a bad word about Dekeyser? I'm one of the few people who thought he has been our best defenseman and yet he gets blamed for not being offensive enough...

 

There is no shame in not being as good as Eichel, just as there is no shame in not being as good as Larkin. My point from the beginning is that you have created a narrative that Eichel is worlds better then Larkin right now, but statistically speaking he has not accomplished anything more then Larkin with the exception of 10 assists. At this point, I consider them at the same level. Which one out performs the other moving forward, I dont know, but up to this point I dont think either has out performed the other.

 

Your Mrazek comment is exactly what I am talking about, any time you talk about a youngwing, there is always a negative tone to it. You dont have to think he is going to be a vezina winner, but why the need to try to talk him down?

 

I never mentioned DD.




#2685380 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by kliq on 02 September 2016 - 11:28 AM

 

No, what I've said is that I take the guy who scores. I don't care if it's related to any advanced stats or not, it's just a simple eyetest thing.

 

Really? I was one of the few guys around pissed of that the Wings traded Chychrun for a (small) chance to make a pitch for Stamkos and what happened? They didn't even get a meeting with him, looks like the *** streak didn't wow him enough. So tell me what you rather have Chychrun or that Cholowski kid or whatever his name is? Keep in mind Chychrun fall because of a shoulder injury but has a ton of potential. If you think Toews is overrated fine, I'd take him over everyone not named Crosby, Stamkos.

 

Like I've said before if you believe Eichel and Larkin are close...go ahead and make that proposal on the Saberes board and see how that works out. There are lot of players who I believe are overhyped, one would be Austin Matthews he will be a very good player but I also don't think he is McDavid or Eichel good. btw. if Larkin proves me wrong that would be fantastic but I shouldn't have to remind anyone on the ridiculous expectations some people had for Tatar and Nyquist and when people told them to slow down...they've talked about it's better to be optimistic than realistic. How did that work out? I'm for one really happy that both have become solid top 6 guys and trade chips a certain GM should use.

 

Frank, do you understand what shooting percentage is? The guy who scores will have a high shooting percentage, unless he is just taking an absurd amount of shots. You always reference "The ol eye ball test", unless you are watching all of these players play 82 games a year, all you are doing is forming strong opinions based on small sample sizes. You can't watch a highlight on sports centre and become an expert on these players. By the way, like I referenced earlier, Larkin and Eichel were 1 goal apart.

 

I don't understand how the streak or Stamkos have anything to do with what I am saying. I am not saying that these players are bad, I am saying that you are a person who seems to get really upset whenever someone hypes up a Wing, yet you do the same thing with your personal favorites as long as they are not Wings. I have heard you talk about Chychrun countless times in the last 6 months, whether its calling him a beast, the next coming etc. However I dont believe I have ever heard you post anything in a positive tone regarding Mrazek or Larkin as when its a Wing your tone drastically changes to a very pessimistic negative one.

 

Going back to my original argument, Larkin has done nothing but produce at the same level as Eichel since they started yet you will not give him credit for that and continue to create a narrative that they are world's apart which is simply untrue. Eichel may very well become a better player, but lets not distort facts from the present.




#2685372 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by kliq on 02 September 2016 - 10:27 AM

 

Eichel has the size and skill to become a poor mans version of Mario Lemieux. I don't give a rats ass about how many shots or what shooting percentage a player has. If someone doesn't shoot a lot but scores almost everytime I take that over someone, who shoots a lot but doesn't score. Also I'm not looking down on the analytics I'm just not interested in this stuff. Goals, Assists, Save % for goalies, PIM, Hits and blocked shots are more than enough for me.

 

You realize that you just said that you dont give a rats ass about shooting percentage, but then in bold you say that you will take a guy with a higher shooting percentage lol.

 

Low shots/Scores alot = high shooting percentage.........shoots alot, not a lot of goals = low shooting percentage.

 

My point is not to over hype Larkin, my point is that when it comes to players who are non Wings, you are the king of overhyping (Toews, Eichel, "McJesus", Chychrun etc), But when its a Wing, you go in the opposite direction.




#2685269 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 31 August 2016 - 06:19 PM

Fowler is 24, still plenty of room to improve. And why the he'll didn't Holland have that philosophy for free agents?

How about an Eriksson and picks for Chelios, or Primeau and Coffey for Shanahan, or any of the good trades Holland used to pull off? Nyquist and Tatar are what they are, small one dimensional wingers. Pulk is barely an NHL player. AA is likely a second line forward, Dekeyser MIGHT be a #2 with the right #1, everyone else in the D pipeline are 4/5 guys. I'm not saying dump them for nothing or a vet, but if you can move them for a good young player it's stupid not to, even if it's a two for one deal. The team that gets the better player wins because one elite player is more valuable than two secondary players.

So...Fowler at 24 will improve and is worth the gamble, while Tatar at 25 and Nyquist at 26 will always be stuck at the same level?

 

...or familiarity breed contempt and lets check out the grass on the other side.




#2685287 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 31 August 2016 - 09:59 PM

Fowler is younger anyway, D take longer to mature, so yes, Fowler has room to improve a lit more than Tatar and Nyquist

While it's true that D take longer to mature and 24 is fairly young, Fowler's actually been in the league for six years. I think it's pretty rare someone that's been in the league that long making that significant a step up in their game. Dubnyk maybe, but changing goaltending techniques is a different matter. I guess you could count Kronwall as an example since he expanded his game when he became a 1st pair after 6 years of being a second pair guy, though I think that was more of a change than getting better.

 

I think it's a little ironic that you're the one making this argument since you often write how others shouldn't count the potential of certain players. 




#2685109 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by kliq on 26 August 2016 - 04:58 PM

If you are saying that Q is a good player than don't use Franson as another exemple. It doesn't mean that he'should a top 4 defensemen being paid +$4M defensemen as he was massively overpaid.

This has nothing to do with what I said. My point was that a player not signing right away is often a result of said player wanting more then he is worth. I did not say Franson was better, the same, or worse then Qunicey as it is irrelevant. I would use Franson in my example again if I had to as IMO it is a similar situation. (I admit, this is speculation)

 

I believe Quincey had a price tag that was higher then what teams were willing to pay. I'm sure if Quincey was willing to take a short term deal at a reasonable cap hit, he would have been signed extremely quick. Quincey would be a great 3rd pairing guy on a good team. I never said he was a top 4 guy.


Anaheim needs a leftwinger, there's no reason why a trade centering around Nyquist in exchange for Fowler cannot be done. Except that Holland thinks Nyquist is the future of his franchise or something...thanks kenny...make the deal already.

 

This is not how trades work. You cannot tell Anaheim, we are giving you Nyquist for Fowler end of story. They may not want Nyquist, they may want AA, Mantha or Larkin......In that 5 questions thing, Kenny basically said that he feels goose has hit his ceiling, if that's the case I cant see why he would think that Nyquist "is the future of the franchise". You're just creating a narrative because you are frustrated with the realities of today's market.
 




#2684981 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Buppy on 22 August 2016 - 07:09 PM

I assume you just don't know that much about Winnipeg. Like the Wings, they are kind of loaded with mid-level forwards: Wheeler, Scheifele, Little, Perreault, Ehlers, Stafford. Obviously Laine will be in the mix. Most seem to expect Kyle Connor to make the team and some think he may be better than Larkin. Just signed Matthias. Dano looked ok for them last year. Burmistrov will probably never amount to much, but he's still only 24 so I doubt they've completely given up on him. 

 

I'd say it's hardly a lock that Sheahan or Pulk would even make their top-9, much less top-6. Plus they (like pretty much everyone) are already going to be struggling with the question of whom to protect. Then you include Smith, and either they resign him and have to protect him, or they risk losing him as an UFA.

 

The Jets offense wasn't very good, but neither was their defense. Even losing Ladd, the potential impact of Laine and Connor plus continued development of Ehlers (and maybe a little more from Scheifele even) gives reason for some optimism there. On defense, Morrissey is the only good prospect they have. Getting rid of Trouba for anything other than a direct replacement doesn't make much sense. Maybe for a real upgrade at forward or a top pick + prospect that wouldn't need protection.

 

Really nothing about that trade makes any sense for the Jets. The only way it would is if they get completely desperate with being unable to resign Trouba, and just go for the highest bid. But you already admit that wouldn't likely be us. 

 

The Anaheim deal is a bit better, if you presume they are still looking for help at forward. I'm not sure they still are, but they do have a lot of good young D. Not so sure Nyquist + Holmstrom would get Fowler (E and Bieksa is more or less a wash), with Nyquist coming off a down year and with a longish-term contract. Also not sure Fowler is even good enough to be worth Nyquist.




#2684944 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 19 August 2016 - 02:32 PM

 

Last eleven years. No one has made fewer trades, and it's not even close.

A.K.A. since the salary cap. It's clear that has been our policy since the cap - go with homegrown draft picks and prospects for the majority of our players. In this time, I think every other team, at some point, has either traded a lot of their future in a big push to win (Pens, FLA, KIngs, etc) or traded away aging stars in order to tank and get picks (Flames, Buffalo, etc.) We haven't been in either of these extreme situations so it makes sense that we have tallied much less trades - that was what I was saying.

 

Now, you can argue that we should go through the cycle of boom and bust, but that's another conversation, i think.