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gcom007Member Since 18 Dec 2003
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Posted by gcom007 on 12 July 2012 - 09:16 PM
Let's just forget about making the playoffs for a second...
Are we even a .500 team with that defense? Maybe in a couple years with more NHL development for the youngans, but next year? Seriously?
Don't forget or overlook how important Lidstrom's contribution to our offense was as well.
I don't want to s*** on anyone trying to be optimistic; it's a noble thing and I will cheer this team on next season no matter what. But none the less, I don't think people have really accepted what we're going to be dealing with next year, nor are people willing to admit how much Holland has mishandled the whole situation the last 3-4 years. You can talk all you want about how "smart" it is to not make ridiculous reactionary moves now, but we never should've been in this position.
And we've been talking about how "smart" Holland is for sitting on his hands because of the "cap" or some player's "potential" for four summers in a row now, and here we are: Lidstrom's gone, Stuart's gone, Hudler's gone again (I'm completely okay with that one, but he still scored goals and that hasn't been our strong suit...). We didn't land our primary free agent targets. We added Tootoo and an older Samuelson (and a good backup goalie, but hopefully that'll be a fairly inconsequential addition this year). Our defense as of now features Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith, Quincey and Kindl. No Lidstrom. No Stuart.
Very, very, very few options left.
Posted by gcom007 on 12 July 2012 - 08:54 PM
I think Holland thought he was addressing Stuart when he got Quincy, he has not been an acceptable replacement yet but still might turn out to be. As for trading pieces in anticipation of Lids retiring, I think the mentality was to make a push for another cup before he retired. My understanding is that is one of the things Holland and Lidstrom discussed each offseason, whether or not they were going to push for a Cup that year. I don't think Lids would have stuck around as long as he did if Holland was trading away present talent in order to shore up the future when Lidstrom would be gone. Puts Holland in a catch 22.
I liked the move and still do but I don't think Babcock would agree with this analysis. And I don't think we would be foregoing our Cup chances by trading pieces and prospects to get a top-tier defenseman to play alongside Lidstrom before retiring. I also think we likely hurt our Cup chances by not shaking this team up a bit more. New blood might've added more urgency, and if guys saw that the front office wasn't above shipping out players (that have likely felt untouchable for awhile now, unhealthy...) it might motivate them to perform better day in, day out. We also have had an incredibly unbalanced offense since the summer of 2009 and Holland has failed to address that time and again. In my mind, and I think many others, Babcock's included last summer, Holland didn't address the needs of this team to get them ready to make a run for the Cup. No matter what he told Lidstrom, Holland's been dropping the ball again and again on this team for 3-4 years now.
It is a better situation to have it blow up, with room to change. Than have it blow up when you are spending to the cap and have to buy out contracts.
Holland is being smart.
Like I said before, I'm not talking about Holland's performance this off-season. I'm talking about 3-4 years of Holland utterly and completely fumbling to address the needs of this team in the present and in the future, as in, being set up for right now. Do you see me saying anything about signing lower-middle tier guys to excessive contracts just for the sake of doing something? No. It would be dumb to go crazy right now, but that would be about the only thing dumber than what Holland did the last 3-4 years to help land us in this position in the first place.
Posted by gcom007 on 12 July 2012 - 07:06 PM
You know what? I like the situation we are in, here is why. We are going to find out just how good we are. How good of a GM is Ken? Were going to find out. How good are all of our prospects? Lots of young guys are going to get a real chance to play this year. Our true depth will be exposed this year, good or bad. How good of a coach do we have? Babcock is going to have to coach his ass of this year. How big time are Datsyuk, Z, and the mule? Thoes guys must have monster years. Can they do it? We are going to find out. I f@cking pumped to find out. I think this is exactly what this club needs, a chance to prove them selves. This is great motivation, something we have been lacking. The Red Wings are going to see just how good they are and I feel good about it.
Maybe, but how fun will it be if it blows up in our faces? And what's more likely to happen at this point? And some of these guys have had time to prove themselves and have continually fallen short. Others are getting older despite still being elite players. And in some of these cases, it's not necessarily a matter or effort or ability so much as chemistry and balance, and that's something that needs to be addressed by bringing in the right parts and selling off what isn't working or what you can afford to lose. That's not to say that the season doesn't have potential to be exciting and rewarding, but you also can't say that we've had more than a bit of time to observe this team and many of these players in moments of adversity the last few years. We had holes then and terrible injury luck at times, and now we just have more holes, as well as the biggest hole we've had in the modern era, and still more players getting older. I'll cheer the team on no matter what, but this is just an ugly situation any way you shake it.
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Posted by gcom007 on 12 July 2012 - 06:36 PM
He should've made the moves to have pieces in place to build on when Lidstrom left 2-3, maybe even 4 years ago, but he didn't want to move anybody. He should've been actively shopping for a big time young defensemen after we won our last Cup, and yes, he should've given up legitimate, Red Wing-developed talent to do so, hard as it may.
If you ask me, Holland's chief and most critical objective for the last five year has been coming up for a replacement for Lidstrom. They knew it was coming, and they knew the loss would be huge; there could be no bigger hole than the hole left by Lidstrom in this era. The way it's looking now, it is highly likely that the 2012/13 season will start and Holland will have failed to come even remotely close to addressing the hole left by Lidstrom.
But again, to be perfectly clear, Holland didn't fail this summer. He failed for the last 4 years. He keeps coming up with nothing in the off-season and he even admitted in 2009 that he was shocked and unprepared for what happened when all our free-agents walked and we had no real Plan B.
Hell, people are pissed we didn't get Parise this year at a cap hit that would've sat around $7.5 million, but we let Hossa walk who could've been had for a $5 million cap hit because we didn't want to part with guys we developed, despite the fact that they've been inconsistent or wholly unproven performers.
But to be fair, I'm no saying Holland's a bad GM or wouldn't be capable of building a winner again, but I am increasingly of the opinion that he has run his course as the Wings GM. I think he's become too soft and cautious, and I'd venture to say at times out of touch with reality (again, see summer 2009). I think it's easy to gravitate to extremes on this issue and say Holland is a mastermind because of what he accomplished in the past just as easy as it is to say he rode on the coattails of Scotty Bowman's influence. Maybe the true answer is somewhere in between. Maybe he's just too close to this organization and the people in it to make objective opinions. And maybe he's not.
But in any event, in the last 4 years, any way you shake it, he's given no reason to believe that he's still got even a hint of that magic touch still, and even if you want to focus on the positives in his history and his overall capability as a GM, you still have a long way to go in defending the last 4 years of mediocre GMing. After all, even he admitted he blew it in '09, and Babcock all but slammed him about his lack of moves last summer to address problems he saw in the team.
Posted by gcom007 on 04 July 2012 - 10:51 PM
To everyone trashing Holland for that one, some questions.
1. What would you have done differently?
Don't give me the excuses like "he should have" its about what you would have done in order to improve this Hockeyclub.
2. How would you have the handled the Suter & Parise situation?
Keep in mind before you answer, they both wanted to play together and in front of their families. They passesd up on an Original Six franchise and also on the chance of playing alongside Malkin, Crosby and Suter being paired with Letang. So this has nothing to do with Detroit's Diamond losing it's shine.
3. Would you be confident with overpaying for at best class B players in order to squeeze into the playoffs and getting our asses handed to us by Vancouver, LA or Nashville?
or maybe just maybe we should pack it in for this season, see what we have in our young-guns, load capspace and offer the world to Getzlaf and Weber next year?
4. What would you have done to prepare for Lidströms retirement?
Save for Burns who went to the Sharks there was absolutely no one outthere, to improve this defense last year!
5. How much more money would you have offered?
Please notice, it wasn't about money for them.
Aside from the obvious questions some of you should ask themselves if you are truely RedWingsFans or fans of winning? Money and tradition aside, you can't win it every year and sometimes you have to go through a reload/tool episode and personally I can't wait seeing our young-guns learning from their mistakes and becoming better players.
Sorry I know I am the new guy here, but some people are acting like the wolrd is coming to an end just because two elite UFAs decided to go elsewhere.
1) I would have signed or traded for a top-tier defensemen the summer after we won our last Cup, despite likely having to give up some of our own young talent via trade or due to lack of cap space to do so. Our stock was never higher as a team so we were as much of a destination for top-tier talent as ever, and shaking things up after winning it all isn't necessarily a bad thing even in the short term, let alone the fact that allowing Lidstrom's replacement to have time to actually play with Lidstrom and LEARN would certainly be the wisest long term move I could make, knowing that sometime soon, Lidstrom would retire.
2) I wouldn't have had to worry about it! I would've signed Hossa after '09 who I'd rather have than Parise anyways for a far better cap hit and let Flip and Hudler go. And I would have already moved mountains to bring in Lidstrom's replacement so signing Suter wouldn't be a necessity. And chances are, these moves might have made Detroit a more attractive destination to both Parise and Suter anyways! Suter wouldn't have to come in and deal with all the pressure of filling Lidstrom's hole and Parise would have 3 legitimate superstars to complement him up front. But again, I don't think I would've put myself in a position to have to pay these guys this much money because I was desperate and had no better option.
3) At this point, you've got to get in bed with the decisions you've made and realize that you set yourself up to have to pay guys like Parise and Suter that much money. That is the NHL today, like it or not. Are they really overpaid if so many teams were willing to pay it? The $8 million difference between our offers is negligible, as I'm sure we'd have matched it if it came to that. We didn't lose these guys because of money. We didn't have the team to sell them on that would've made them look away from what is more like "home" them.
4) See answer 1. This should've happened 3-4 years ago. Really.
5) See 3. If it was the money, we would've matched, and that's simply not the issue. It isn't exactly Holland's fault that we didn't sign Parise and Suter, but it's absolutely his fault that we're in the desperate situation we're in. He's been coasting for far too long playing it cautious. I hate to feel vindicated over arguments about this matter I've been making for years now, because right now, this really does suck, but I've been pissed at Holland's management of this team for quite a while now. I've never felt less bad about my opinion of Holland being at least at this point an overrated, ineffective GM. Maybe he was as good as everyone said he was 10 years ago, but he hasn't been close to anything one might call "good" for 3-4 years now.
Posted by gcom007 on 04 July 2012 - 10:24 PM
What I have to say to Holland: I hope Yzerman likes your office, I have a feeling he will be occupying it soon.
I said it last week and I'll say it again, if Holland doesn't land Parise and/or Suter, it's going to be viewed as a failure no matter the reason, and it's going to be yet another off-season failure in a string of off-season failures. These were less his fault than '09's for example, but it's no matter, because he's had enough failures that were entirely his fault at this point.
Everyone wants to defend the guy because we've been so successful, but for the last 3-4 years, the guy has dropped the ball again and again and failed to set us up to be in a good position when Lidstrom retired. You can say that it's a different league now and we're not the draw to free agents we were 3-4 years ago, but that was all the more reason why he should've been making the deals then to set us up for this particularily dramatic off-season. But he's made too many emotional decisions in keeping guys (and gambling on guys...) we developed over pursuing better, proven talent at the expense of home-grown guys that had yet to live up to potential or do so consistently. He's played it too cautious and sat on the sidelines while our value as a destination team to players diminished.
You know, everyone's pissed about losing Suter now, but he should've made a deal to bring in a guy like Suter 3 years ago so he could sit next to Lidstrom and LEARN so we'd his replacement in place and more ready than ever to take over Lidstrom's role. The fact that it didn't happen was a supremely regrettable and in my mind inexcusable lack of foresight.
I don't claim to be an expert and I know Ken Holland knows a lot more about the game than I do, but too much of this was obvious even to me and it's been obvious to me since we were winning our last Cup, when things were good. I started to see it and started to worry then. And if a casual fan can start to pick up on this, then there's little doubt that Ken Holland was probably aware of it as well, but again, he failed to act. Why that was is still anyone's guess, but again, I think he simply was too close to the situation and made too many moves for emotional reasons that didn't serve the team well in the long run. That is why in my mind he has failed, and failed quite enough to get many if any more chances to manage this team heading into another off-season.
Posted by gcom007 on 04 July 2012 - 11:56 AM
Posted by gcom007 on 02 July 2012 - 05:17 PM
This is pathetic, if I'm a free agent I would all ready have an idea where I would want to go play.
He probably does. That's why there aren't still 20 teams in the running. But have you considered that there are many places he might like to play for a variety of reasons, each with pros and cons? And that despite playing it through your head, you have no real idea what you're dealing with exactly until teams can actually call and send over their offers, and they couldn't do that before 30 hours ago, and they likely couldn't reasonably start sorting through it until about 24 hours ago.
So the guy and his agent have had about 30 hours to deal with concrete choices and actually have discussions with teams about those choices and your upset because he wants another 12-24 hours?
You're sitting on a message board. He's debating a decision that will have an enormous affect on the next 12 years of his life. Take a step back and think about that for a minute.
And for the record, his agent was quoted as saying a decision could still come tonight if made early enough about an hour ago, so again, try to have a little patience and empathy for the guy.
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Posted by gcom007 on 02 July 2012 - 05:04 PM
You know where you can stick your definition?
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Posted by gcom007 on 02 July 2012 - 04:53 PM
Aww, I feel so bad for the little gazillionairre having to decide which city he wants to eat out of his hand for the next umpteen years. Boy he's sure got it rough.
No one's saying he's got it rough. They're saying give the guy a few days to sort through his options now that his options are concrete. There's nothing wrong with that, at all.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An entitlement is a guarantee of access to benefits based on established rights or by legislation. A "right" is itself an entitlement associated with a moral or social principle, such that an "entitlement" is a provision made in accordance with legal framework of a society. Typically, entitlements are laws based on concepts of principle ("rights") which are themselves based in concepts of social equality or enfranchisement.
In a casual sense, the term "entitlement" refers to a notion or belief that one (or oneself) is deserving of some particular reward or benefit—if given without deeper legal or principled cause, the term is often given with pejorative connotation (e.g. a "sense of entitlement").
Who has a bigger entitlement issue right now?
Guy A, who wants a few days to decide where to work for the next 10-12+ years and where he'll start his family or Guy B, who is posting on a message board pissed off at Guy A for not making an instant decision.
Posted by gcom007 on 02 July 2012 - 04:38 PM
Oh no, I can't make up my mind. It's all so hard. On one hand I want to play with my BFF Sidney. Sure is a lot of upside to playing on that line. Marty Brodeur won't STOP calling me since he re-signed. I like New Jersey buuuuuuuut I"m from Minnesota and boy would it be dandy to go back home. Yes, back home would be nice.
ENOUGH! Jesus Zach, you saw this coming, you had to. You knew 20 teams would line up and you had to know enormous amounts would be discussed. Didn't you discuss this with your agent? This smells to me as of now no matter who gets him he's going to have a rough transition if he's still this conflicted.
You don't think things get more complicated when the reality of the decision starts to set in?
You don't think given New Jersey's complicated ownership situation that it's not adding another layer of complication for him? He likely does want to stay in NJ in many ways, which is totally fair and reasonable, but he likely has some very fair and reasonable concerns that are hard to sort through. He'd be taking less money to play on a team that likely will not be able to stay competitive in the coming years.
Then you have the other teams likely in the mix: Detroit, Minnesota, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Philadelphia...
Minnesota is going "home" for him, and from what the Wild brass has said, they're certainly willing to pay him more than enough money to make it worth his while to come "home." But the Wild aren't exactly a contender now, are they? Difficult decision.
Pittsburgh has the Crosby angle working for them. Sid and Parise have history and Sid's arguably the face of the game right now. Pittsburgh also has the Crosby angle working against them. Crosby's a hard check away from retirement and given his recent contract and the Pens overall financial situation, I'd bet that the Pens offer is for significantly less money than any other team in the mix.
Then you've got Chicago, Detroit and Philadelphia. All teams are capable of being contenders; two of them have won the Cup in the last five years and one has made it to the Semi's and Finals in the same span. All teams have likely thrown big money at him, and all are attractive destinations in many ways. All three have positives and negatives though as well.
Bottom line, I don't think this is an easy decision for him, and no matter how many times you play it in your head, until you have to face the reality and actually sort through the deals and talk to the teams (which you cannot do before July 1, it's all merely informed conjecture/speculation/fantasy/darts...give the guy time. I expect he'll make a decision by tomorrow at 6 PM, just two days and change past the start of free agency.
Two days in which he must decide what the next 10-12 or more years of his life will look like. I think we fans can manage for another 24 hours.
And hell, it's better news than him signing in Pittsburgh, isn't it? Count your blessings, there's still hope!
As if this is the only time he's had to consider this? It ain't like he's suddenly been put on the f***in spot to decide the rest of his future. Pick a team ****** and make it snappy!
And this is why, in the new CBA, the NHL really needs to institute a week or two for teams to negotiate with UFAs before they're allowed to sign.
Concur. I started adding this to my previous long post but cut it as it was already getting long. It's silly that we put so much added pressure on these guys to decide their futures just because Twitter exists and no one knows how to wait for anything anymore.
I'd like to see anyone here have to make a major life decision of comparable weight as swiftly as they'd like to see Parise make his decision.
Posted by gcom007 on 02 July 2012 - 04:16 PM
So he made a big deal about speaking to reporters to tell us that he hasn't made a decision yet? Drama queen.
I don't blame the guy at all. In fact, I respect him for taking his time and heading home to speak to his family about the matter. It's a huge decision that none of us here truly understand. Don't get me wrong, I'm as anxious to know as anyone, but unless this drags on for over a week, I don't think the guy is doing anything wrong.
The only thing wrong here in my book is people giving these guys s*** for taking their time to decide where they want to call home for the rest of their careers in the NHL, as if that's such an insignificant decision.
Posted by gcom007 on 01 July 2012 - 05:33 PM