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Member Since 18 Dec 2003
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#2342794 Everyone chill out!

Posted by gcom007 on 20 January 2013 - 05:32 PM

What makes you think Filppula is going to give us a good return?  So Selanne likes him.  Teemu is also 41 and not likely to be playing much longer.  So the Ducks are going to trade for him so Teemu can play with is buddy when they don't know how much longer he'll play? So he sucks, lets trade him, and we'll get someone really good in return?  What value does Cleary have? He's old, often injured and overpaid.   Emmerton?  What picks and prospects? 


I always have to laugh when fans think our players suck, but yet they think they're incredibly valuable to someone else.  If small skilled players aren't the "in" thing, why would other teams want them? 


Aside from Dats and Z, who aren't going anywhere, we have no guys who are worth anything alone. Flip and Franzen are the only guys we have that we can live without that will be of any interest to teams that might deal top-end talent, and they both come with significant caveats.


Flip's a very valuable trade asset generally, but not in the final year of his contract, hence why I was suggesting moving him the last couple years especially considering our depth at center and the impending retirement of Lidstrom.


Franzen alone won't be worth as much as he would've a couple years ago either, so again, only thing that might work, and it's still a stretch at this point, is a package with Franzen and Flip and a maybe a prospect and draft pick.


The idea of Cleary having any value is absurd. He might find a way to get it going down the stretch, but even if a team would trade for him, it's not going to net us much in return.


Bottom line, we need major help on D. We need a top-pairing guy who can come in and stabilize the defense and play a lot of minutes. No way that comes in without Franzen and Flip going out, and they won't go alone. We don't have much to work with at this point and we're up against a wall, desperate. The asking price will be high, but Holland doesn't have many choices. Franzen's been floating and inconsistent and it makes sense to just cut the experiment off if we can add a solid defenseman. Flip, as said, is in the final year of his contract, and there's no guarantee that we'll sign him anyways. Sure, we "want" to keep him, but if he expects a big raise and our defense hasn't improved, I have to wonder if we'll even be able to afford him under the new cap. It's early enough in this weird season that Flip might have more value to a team looking to add a strong, experienced 2-way guy especially if they think they can sign him this summer.


And worst case scenario, I think Flip gets dealt at the deadline even if no other moves are made. If nothing gets done before, I don't think this team has a prayer of landing in the playoffs, so dealing Flip for even mid to low draft picks is a better scenario for the team than holding on to him until July 1 just for the sake of holding on to him. They can still try and sign him this summer if they really want to, after all.


But any way you shake it, we're between a rock and a hard place. We need to shake the team up, but we have no leverage and very few worthwhile assets. Add to that the likelihood of a dry free-agent season and we could be in serious trouble for some time. We haven't been a destination spot for a few years now, and it's only going to get worse the way things are going. That's why I really think Holland has to do all he can to make a big move to improve the D. He's got to send a message to this team and the rest of the league that he still wants to win. These current Wings players (sans Dats and Z) could really use a reminder that they're expendable; maybe it'll finally get their feet moving and they'll magically start "hearing Babcock's message."

#2342642 Everyone chill out!

Posted by gcom007 on 20 January 2013 - 12:21 PM

Lots of rust, lots of uninspired play. Perhaps Z is not fully in his Captaincy role yet. I know that both Yzerman and Lidstrom spoke of having to rally the team from a leadership standpoint....it might take a bit for the new C to settle into that. 


As for the rust....well, Howard looked worse than Monster. I'm glad for a big upgrade over last season in the backup role. 


Franzen....this guy is going to get bought out if he repeats this performance all season. 


Not to take anything away from Monster, but by the time he was in, I don't think the Blues were really trying too hard either. They were still skating circles around us, but half as fast as they were earlier in the game.

#2342628 Everyone chill out!

Posted by gcom007 on 20 January 2013 - 11:50 AM

I am not panicking yet, but I can share some of my concerns about last night's game.


1. It looked like an AHL team vs. an NHL team last night - it was that bad.  I don't think I've seen the Wings play a worse 60 minutes of hockey in recent memory.  It wasn't like we got unlucky or couldn't cash in on chances - the Wings had no legitimate scoring chances. 


2. I didn't see a single useful pass from our D to the forwards.  Quincey in particular looked bad. 


3. Franzen - who I am usually a big fan of - was non-existent.  He looked like he was skating through mud.  Same goes for Sammy.


4. Special teams = scary bad.  Is Tom Renney running them? I've lost all faith in Renney's abilities after watching the debacle in Edmonton over the last few years. They've got to fix that. 


BUT, that was only game 1, and it was against a clearly amped-up St. Louis team.  I have no doubt it will get better, I just hope it happens quickly. Also, I liked the way Brunner looked, and I liked Tootoo's speed and energy (I wish he made contact with Tarasenko on that hit attempt).  Tootoo, Helm, and Miller would be a fast line.


BTW, thoughts on Howard?  I actually didn't think he deserved to get pulled - I assume it was more of a mercy move by Babcock. 


I think it was in the first, Colaiacovo had all the time in the world behind the net with the puck and a wide open winger on the left and he makes a breakout pass that was nowhere close to the winger. I didn't know what to say. It was as sloppy of a play as I'd seen. Literally, no pressure, no mad rush, no one forechecking, no one on the winger, and a terrible-awful-no-good-very-bad pass. Mind-numbing.



Holland doesn't determine how the players perform. There isn't the faintest chance that Lidstrom's presence could have salvaged that game.




They're professionals. If they don't show 100%, why are they still here? I don't care if the coach is a joke (I'm not saying I think Babcock is at all), if you don't go out and give 100%, you should get your ass shipped out. There's no excuse in the NHL when these guys are making as much money as they are. The effort many of these players have been putting forth for years now is inexcusable, and the fact that they are still on the Wings roster is very much determined by Ken Holland.

#2342497 Wings Looking For Defenseman

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 11:55 PM

Id let Franzen go in a heartbeat...   for the right return.   Flip on the other hand...  I'd keep him.  I dont want to give him up.  He's good defensively, and offensively.   Franzen at this point... is soft... lazy... and not much time left... let him go.


What other NHL-ready talent do we have that would help us land a top-pairing defenseman? Not only that, there's a very good chance that we might not even be able to afford Flip next year with the new cap if he wants a big raise and we're still in desperate need to improve the defense.

#2342474 1/19: Red Wings 0 at St. Louis Blues 6

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 11:32 PM

Goaltending was pretty bad too. I wouldn't say as bad as the rest of the team, but Howard was pretty awful.


Game 1 and how many breakaways did he face? How many times was he just hung out to dry? How many power play goals? He wasn't outstanding, but he really, truly was the absolute least of the Wings problems tonight. He was the only bright spot at times.

#2342437 1/19: Red Wings 0 at St. Louis Blues 6

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 11:03 PM

Can we for the record squash the Parise and Suter whining..it had nothing to do with the money..they wanted to be Kariya and Selanne part 2  ..Holland offered them as much money as anyone else.


Here is some advice everyone...mix up your favorite beverage whether its whiskey, beer, wine, listerine, dr pepper, sit down..chill the f out and have a short memory.  See you headcases on Monday.




True story. Granted, I think they would've come here for $110 million, but I think it'd be insane to pay that either way. Holland tried to sign them, it didn't work, and that's that. Where Holland really went wrong was all the signings or trades he failed to make leading up to this. He had no real plan and had to fly by the seat of his pants. He's continually let top end talent slip away to sign guys that now are floating out there for us. There's no point whining about about Parise and Suter. If you want to whine, look back further and get realistic. There's still plenty to chew on and cry about.

#2342190 1/19: Red Wings 0 at St. Louis Blues 6

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 10:01 PM

I didn't say that the players are not repsonding, it was on the radio today that there was a rumor going around that Babcock has lost something with the players....not hate, but the coach is ALWAYS the first to go...


Oh and just FYI, Mike Babcock is not Scotty Bowman....nobody is Scotty Bowman...there is a reason why Scotty Bowman has won so much.  If this continues into the 15-20 games, Renney will be head coach...


Wasn't arguing with you really, and I've heard rumblings about that too, I just think it's a little silly given the effort these guys have been giving for awhile. Franzen's been floating for way too long and if Babcock loses something with the players after a Cup win and another Cup appearance in the first couple years to follow that, and the players look lazy and old, I'm personally going to side with the coach.


And sure, no one's Scotty Bowman, but I just remember plenty of talk about Bowman losing his way with the players too, and I remember guys getting booted out if they were unwilling to work. He had that clout, and he had the GM power most of his time here, which was great.


To me, I look at these guys and I say they're all professionals getting paid a ton of money to go out and play a game. Even if the coach is truly a joke and they don't like him, they need to be out giving 100%. There's no excuses for not doing that in the NHL. So even if Babcock isn't getting the message across these days, he's not the only one that should get the boot if it comes to that as far as I'm concerned. Not by a long-shot.


And maybe these guys are playing lazier as well because they've learned that it's next to impossible to get traded when you're a Red Wing and highly likely that you'll get re-signed despite a mediocre effort.

#2342160 1/19: Red Wings 0 at St. Louis Blues 6

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 09:53 PM

I have an idea for a fun game.

Everyone guess

a) which Wing will score first

b) who will get the first assists

c) which month it will happen in


Thanks. I needed a good laugh. This is just grim otherwise.

#2342094 1/19: Red Wings 0 at St. Louis Blues 6

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 09:42 PM

Good God, Lemon...

#2341888 1/19: Red Wings 0 at St. Louis Blues 6

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 08:57 PM

Anyone who thought our D wasn't going to be a mess was kidding themselves. I admit, I was trying to be optimistic as time went on too, but let's get real, losing Rafalski, Stuart and Lidstrom is just a huge blow, especially when you add nothing even remotely comparable to even Stuart. But we talk about that and we don't often talk about the fact that great players like Lidstrom make the guys around them better. So what are these guys going to look like without the Lidstrom-bonus magic skill points? Well, I guess we are starting to really figure that out.


I can't imagine that Holland isn't shifting in his seat tonight, and can't imagine Babcock doesn't want to strangle him right now either.

#2341796 1/19: Red Wings 0 at St. Louis Blues 6

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 08:43 PM

it also bothers me that White wears #18, I keep thinking, "Why are they playing Maltby on defense?"


Posted the same thing a page or two back. Really bizarre still. I wish they'd semi-retire certain guys numbers like Draper, Maltby, Holmstrom, Osgood, McCarty even. Some of these guys that won many Cups and were very important parts of this team for a long time. Why not give their numbers a year or two at least? Not a big deal obviously, but it'd be a nice gesture.

#2325294 Holland losing his moxie? Is Detroit slipping as UFA destination?

Posted by gcom007 on 15 August 2012 - 01:30 AM

The "Youth Movement" is lol on many levels. For starters: there is no youth movement, just a couple younger guys in the top-6 (Brunner, Nyquist) and Smith on the third-pairing. I guess you could say that's a youth movement by our standards. And hey, who knows, maybe Tatar, Sheahan et al. will see NHL ice. But we added Sammy and Tootoo, and Holland was hard for Doan, etc. That, to me, doesn't scream "Youth Movement!" Then there's Kenny's comments about the importance of building from within. Drafting well, cultivating your young talent - that's how we've got to do it these days. To which I say: 1) that's always been the case (not with us, but generally for everyone else), and 2) you're saying this while nearly matching Minnesota's bid for Suter and chasing after Nash and Doan and a thousand other free-agents and giving up a first-round pick for Quincey? (Not that I object to his having pursued free agents. And, turns out we need Quincey now.) I could go on.

Sure but you can't deny Holland operates in a different way then most other GM's. Holland is an extreme on the spectrum. Plays extremely close to the vest, conservative, long-term game. On the other end of the spectrum you have Holmgren. Plays balls to the wall, high-risk high-reward, blow up the team to get that cup now game. Everyone else falls somewhere in between.

Sure Holland chased Nash, and Suter, and blah blah blah.....price wasnt right though and so he didnt pull triggers on things. Thats him. He's not the kind of guy who gives up Zetterberg for *insert Dman here*.....Holmgren is that guy. Mike Richards and Jeff Carter is all I gotta say.

So yes this off season is due to his decisions....bad or good....but those decisions were made by him and his philosophy of hockey business

Others have said much of what I am thinking about "building from within" sounding like a bit of a crock in light of his pursuit of countless big names, so I won't go over it again. But, "the price wasn't right"? Where do you get that? He's thrown everything and the kitchen sink at many guys and they signed elsewhere or were traded elsewhere. "The price wasn't right" makes it sound like Holland backed out of these deals when that simply isn't the case at all. He's even said as much himself. The "build from within" amounts to nothing but damage control in light of Ken Holland's actions this summer. And what is it they say about actions and words?

(P.S. I like White and Quincey, a lot in fact, but to bill them as replacements for the holes left by Raffie and Stuart is a lot to put on them and quite a stretch if you ask me. Again, I like the guys and the signings a lot, but given the holes that have been left, that that's the best that can seemingly be done is worrisome.)

#2325241 Holland losing his moxie? Is Detroit slipping as UFA destination?

Posted by gcom007 on 14 August 2012 - 06:00 PM

I will say in defense of the Holland defenders that I have no idea why people keep bringing up Parise and Suter in this argument. I mean, sure, it's loosely relevant, but it's scratching the surface of a broader issue and ultimately, their decision to sign elsewhere was among the least of things you can blame Ken Holland for given the circumstances. It's a stupid argument and it's utterly non-sensical to continue to suggest that we didn't offer enough money or didn't push hard enough. Suter wanted to head home to Minnesota and avoid media attention (so we pretty much lost this one when we decided to start calling Detroit "Hockeytown") and Parise only left the Devils to play with his friend in his home state. If Suter signed in Detroit or anywhere else, he was staying with the Devils. How this incredibly obvious and simple conclusion isn't enough for some people is truly mind-blowing to me.

#2325240 Holland losing his moxie? Is Detroit slipping as UFA destination?

Posted by gcom007 on 14 August 2012 - 05:54 PM

And when it comes down to it.....anyone who watches hockey knows how good Niklas Kronwall is. Forget stats, as good as they are you don't even need them to show that Kronwall is a #1 guy lol. Just watch a wings game. He's just as good, if not better, than most of the other #1 guys out there in the league.

Again, if the D falters it will be due to lack of depth....not lack of Kronwall

We should probably get back on topic though....Are we still a top UFA destination? Well in the players poll just this last season the players voted and said the team that they'd most like to play for, in the entire league, is the Detroit Red Wings. We weren't just in the top 5 or top 10, we were the number freaking 1. Question answered?

I agree about Kronwall; he's a great defensemen that has been integral to our success over the years. However, he's also proven to be a bit fragile in the past. And we didn't just lose Lidstrom. In the last year and change, we also lost Rafalski and Stuart. Rafalski was a star and a big name guy long before coming to Detroit and could've been most teams top defenseman and Stuart could easily be many teams #2; at worst, Stuart's among the best 2nd pairing defensemen out there.

So what still bothers me isn't so much that we haven't replaced Lidstrom, it's that we haven't replaced 3 of our top 4 defensemen in any way shape or form in the last year. It'd be one thing if we had been able to zero in on even one guy that could sit in the middle of the talent pool of the pack we lost; I'm not even talking a Suter level guy here. The problem to me is that we haven't even come close to filling any of our defensive holes, again, left by the departure of 3 of our top 4 guys, including one who's among the best players to ever live, who at retirement was still a bona fide superstar capable of being the best player on the ice still nearly every night.

Everyone keeps focusing on Lidstrom because it is a huge a dramatic change we're being forced to accept, but what worries me far more is that we haven't even touched on the loss of Rafalski and Stuart. Now, I certainly didn't expect Holland to just pull another Rafalski out of his hat the day after he retired, but again, the writing has been on the wall for awhile, and it's been screaming at everyone since Rafalski retired. We knew Stuart almost certainly wouldn't be back for at least a year now if not more if you count most people's gut feeling. We just watched Rafalski retire. And Lidstrom was firmly in his 40's. Maybe we didn't know for sure if Lidstrom would be back, but the departure of both Rafalski and Stuart alone would warrant some meaningful replacement, even if Lidstrom was returning, and we haven't even gotten that.

And I know people hate it and love to dismiss it, but I just can't help but think that Holland could have done something prior to this summer to better prepare for this. Again, at least something to address the collective loss of Stuart and Rafalski. I'm not saying the guy should be tarred and feathered or that he's a terrible GM overall at all, but when a team like Detroit that prides itself on being competitive every year watches 3 of their 4 top defensemen leave and nothing is done to address it, you've got to admit at the very least that this is hardly Holland's finest hour.

And before we assume once again that we're just being ungrateful fans, don't forget the Babcock was "pissed" (direct quote: "I'm pissed off." -Mike Babcock, http://www.thehockey...tanley-Cup.html) last summer when Holland didn't make moves that could have been made, when Babcock said all along that they needed to add a guy to strengthen their defense. We still had Lidstrom and Stuart at that point. How do you think he feels about everything now? You think he's happy? Sure, you can't get upset about Suter given the circumstances, but Babcock obviously has felt for awhile that changes need to be made as well, and nothing happened. Again, how do you think he feels now? And when do we stop defending Ken Holland by suggesting that it's of benefit to us that he's been conservative?

And why is it so hard for people to admit that even the best can struggle, and even the best can drop the ball, and even the best need to change?

There's a tremendous difference between "I think you suck" and "I think you can do better."

You know what George Martin, primary record producer of The Beatles, said even to the obscenely successful band, The Beatles???

"I think you can do better."

Hey, Ken Holland, I think you can do better.

#2320008 Red Wings make "helluva" offer for Nash, no response

Posted by gcom007 on 18 July 2012 - 10:59 PM


Can we please put this to bed now? Also, those myopic posts about Holland not doing his job... Yea, you can't dance if you don't have a partner, no matter how much you try...

Holland made offers to the two big free agents and the biggest guy on the trade market, now that he's really up against the wall with no other choices, so he gets a pass? Oh, and he didn't get any deals done, but to me, that's never been the issue. Nash was always a huge longshot and if people really get upset about that, then it's just unfortunate.

But again, where was this thinking the last 4 years? You seem to deem it okay that Holland went after Nash as you're using it to defend him. Okay, well, we can only assume that his offer included Franzen and Flip, and we couldn't pass on or trade just one of those guys in 2009 to make keeping Hossa, a better all-around player than Nash, for far less money?

I said it then and I'll say it again now: when you have the chance to bring in genuine superstar talent, you do what it takes to make it happen.

Holland didn't do that, and now he's left having to beg to give up more to get back less from people who don't even care to listen.

And the last 4 years, the same types of stories keep repeating. You would think that losing Rafalski would have lit a fire under him to start looking for a Lidstrom replacement via any means necessary, but again, based on what he's said, not I, he wasn't interested in trading away so and so and such and such to make any sort of big move. But now that we're up against the wall, it's okay? Again, it would've been nice if he had approached these things in a realistic, business-like manner the last 4 years instead of waiting until we were left with a defense that didn't include Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Stuart and an offense that struggles to score goals when it counts.

But even when we had the defense, we couldn't get past the 2nd round, and last years 1st round exit was just embarrassing. Some draw we are now…

Some call it parity, but I think Holland's struggled to make decisions that could rock the boat when it's been obvious for some time that the boat was going to get rocked no matter what when Lidstrom left. He's consistently settled on trying to keep all the pieces he already has instead of swapping some out to get bigger pieces or pieces that simply better complement some of our current pieces. One of his strengths is in finding low-end or cheap talent that can contribute like Bert, Eaves and Miller, but instead of chasing those guys because he has no cap space after signing game-changers like Hossa, he's forced to chase them when they're the only option left at all and then expect what's likely too much out of them. And again, at this point, all those guys he refused to part with are either gone or currently being shopped around in a futile desperation act.

So, I don't know, feel free to love him unconditionally, but despite past successes, I find little reason to defend his handling of this team the last 4 years. I'm not taking anything away from the past success, but this is 4 years in a row now of Holland coming up short in my book. I defended him as long as I could, hoping that perhaps in the last minute he'd pull a rabbit out of his hat and make it all okay like he's done before. That would've minimized my distaste with his management the last 3 years, but at this point, it's clear he never had a solid plan at any point in time to prepare for this off-season.

I'm not even mad at him about this off-season. He did what he could in a desperate moment and came up short for logical and easily understandable reasons. But the thing is, successful people tend to find a way to get "desperate" before life forces it on them, leaving them with a lot more control and subsequently far more options and time to consider them. Holland failed to get "desperate" until life forced it on him, and thus had very little control and few options. And any way you shake it, at this point, he's failed to address the biggest hole that's ever been left by a player leaving this team.

He hasn't even come close to replacing Stuart (Quincey still has a lot to prove this otherwise) let alone Rafalski.

But Lidstrom?

To allow it to come to the point where it still hasn't been addressed in any way, shape or form this summer or in the last 3 offseasons is simply unacceptable. Holland didn't get serious about this until he absolutely had to; he procrastinated, and he came up with nothing. And now he has less bargaining power than he ever had as well.

He may be one of the best GM's in sports when history is taken into account, but he's now well into year four of a stretch where he has been anything but one of the best GM's. It may not kill his reputation, and it shouldn't, but it doesn't negate the fact that he's failed to address too many issues since our last serious Cup run. Maybe the management version of a Stanley Cup hangover lasts four years and looks like a guy clinging to past success too much instead of evolving. That's the closest I can come to a logical explanation for three seasons and four offseasons of doing next to nothing to tweak a team with balance issues let alone prepare for the post-Lidstrom/Rafalski/Stuart era.