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#2371853 Selanne hints at retirement still being far off

Posted by gcom007 on 21 March 2013 - 05:09 PM

Do you think that Lidstrom or Yzerman would ever have changed their minds?


Selanne no longer has anything to prove, nor anything that he can plausibly accomplish beyond what he's done already, and he's got a boatload of money.


Can you come up with one equivalent player---the operative word being equivalent, i.e. already won a Cup, lots of scoring, etc.---who decided to leave his very longtime team (Selanne has played the past eight seasons with the Ducks, and six more before his stint with the Sharks), with which he identified closely, and go somewhere else at the very end of his career?


Lidstrom and Yzerman aren't even remotely equivalent players to bring up in this conversation; they each spent their whole career with the same team, weren't being pinched out by the cap, and they each retired earlier than Selanne likely will. Yzerman could barely skate without extreme pain and Lidstrom "lost the hunger" or something before this could become an issue. Obviously, the Wings can still afford to pay Lidstrom whatever he wants (are you reading this, Nick???).


How many teams has Selanne played for? Oh yeah, four.


We're not even talking Mike Modano or Ray Borque level decisions here, having literally spent their entire career with one team only to switch teams late in their career for one reason or another. But when there's hunger there for a Cup or to keep playing and your longtime team can't afford you or make a place for you or put a team together that can make a run, you find a way to rationalize things, painful as it may be in some ways. And again, those guys hadn't already changed teams four times before, like Teemu has.


And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's incredibly likely that he'll play for someone else, nor am I trying to suggest that he doesn't feel a sense of loyalty to the Ducks organization at this point, I'm merely saying that if the guy wants to keep playing but the Ducks can't come up with the money to make it work, push comes to shove, I think it's entirely possible that Selanne might change his mind and play for someone else. Granted, I don't think he would do so 2-3 years from now at 45, but after this season or next, if the Ducks can't make it work financially, I absolutely believe that he would entertain other options if he still had the hunger to play. 


Yzerman and Lidstrom? Seriously? 


It just wouldn't be nearly as hard for him as it would be for someone like Yzerman or Lidstrom, because after all, it wouldn't be the first time he went to a new team, it'd be the fifth time. I'm not trying to take anything away from Teemu as I think he's a great, great hockey player and he seems like a great person off the ice. I don't think anyone wouldn't absolutely love to have the guy on their favorite team; he's one of the greats and a pure class act. But no matter what he may say now (and what else would you expect him to be saying now?), if he wants to keep playing and it's not looking like it's going to work out in Anaheim, if there are other intriguing options out there, I don't think it'd be outlandish at all to think that Teemu Selanne might switch teams for the fifth time.


None the less, I think you've got to be dreaming if you think he'd come to Detroit at this stage in the game. I mean, sure, it's possible and there are reasons to believe it'd be on the shortlist, and it may still be, but I kinda doubt that we'll be signing Flip to an extension and that would be a large part of the draw to get him here. Furthermore, he's not going to want to join a rebuilding team at 42, and I think it's getting harder and harder to suggest that we're not in a sort of rebuilding stage right now. It's too bad though. He'd look great in red and white and he might be able to help Flip be better than he knows how to be on his own. Dreams...


Edit: I think it's also worth bringing Chris Chelios up as equivalent players who made dramatic shifts. First of all, just him coming to Detroit at all was no small feat, and he was no spring chicken when that deal went down. And at a much later age when he had absolutely nothing whatsoever to prove to anyone, no need for money, and really only shame to gain, he left Detroit to try and make something else work. Guys who want to play well into their 40s are hungrier to play than just about anyone, and despite their best intentions, they're not going to be tied down by a feeling of loyalty. If Selanne wants to play and believes he still can, he will find a place to play, Anaheim or not.

#2370510 LGW Forums on tablets

Posted by gcom007 on 17 March 2013 - 12:19 PM

This issue has inadvertently lead to a decline in my visiting here. I've progressively used the iPad more and more for web content the last few years, and LGW on the iPad is just a mess with the ads. Starts to feel like more trouble than it's worth after awhile. I'll have to check out the Tapatalk option. Just another step into the app-centric world...

#2342803 Everyone chill out!

Posted by gcom007 on 20 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

I gotta say though, Babcock never prepared this team whatsoever and Quincey kept getting turned inside out and causing goals and he led the team in ice time that's badf****** coaching no way around it. Not to mention our PP was some of the worst hockey I've ever witnessed and our PK has been a joke for 3 years.


What is Babcock supposed to do if these guys don't want to skate hard? What can he do if they're so absent-minded out there that they can't even get the fundamentals down? What Babs has wanted to do for awhile was dump guys that don't work and bring in guys that will work hard. Holland hasn't helped there at all, which Babock has openly been "pissed off" about for some time. It's not as simple as just having any old parts and then having a coach magically make them work great as a whole. In reality, sometimes you just have the wrong parts. Any great coach will tell you that.


If you've got a lot of guys that don't skate hard, then clearly, you have too many wrong parts. Babcock can't make trades, he can't sign guys and he can't release guys. That's Holland's job, and as far as I'm concerned, he's been doing a piss poor job of it since 2009. He hasn't adjusted to the true reality of the cap era, and he's rested on his laurels. It's not worth debating his past success at this point, because it doesn't mean anything if you can't get the job done in the present. He's been dropping the ball again and again since 2009, and one could say that was when the cap era truly started to have an effect on the Wings.


Before that, we had a lot of the pieces already in place, had 2 capable Stanley Cup-winning goaltenders playing for practically nothing because they were old, and we were lucky enough to be the first team to figure out a loophole in the cap. And when the cap kicked off originally, we were paying Z what, $2 million a year or something? We got really lucky when it first kicked off, any way you shake it. Now that we have to operate in a similar fashion as the rest of the league, how have things gone? How has Holland responded? Can you really say he's done all he can to ice the best team the last few years? And bear in mind, I'm not even talking about last summer. He went out and tried and got turned down by the top guys for reasons that were reasonably out of his control. But he had multiple years before that where he failed to address issues and failed to begin setting up for a smooth transition into the post-Lidstrom era.


They say great players make the players around them better. In Lidstrom's case, I think he was also making the GM look better. It's obviously going to not be as bad as it was last night every night, but if you can't see how many glaring holes and issues there are in this team, you're not watching hockey. This teams looked shaky the last few years, but Lidstrom really was a player that was great enough alone to be a sort of glue that held the ship together. But he's gone now, and this ship is a mess, and Holland's running out of time to prove he can run a team in the cap era.

#2342797 Everyone chill out!

Posted by gcom007 on 20 January 2013 - 05:50 PM

There's a phrase, "To whom much is given, much is expected."

Red Wings' players are given a lot.  An awful lot.  They're treated very well by ownership and management, rewarded with contracts that some of us fans say are for too long or for too much money, especially when a player is past his prime.  The players that fit into the team's structure are kept here for a long time, usually only leaving when they choose to retire or to move on.  They're largely sheltered from the public, they don't have to do all the appearances that players in less-traditional hockey markets have to do.  And they're (for the most part) adored by the team's fans.

What's expected in return is that they give 100%, play well, win more often than not, and do well in the playoffs.  Last night's game was a total failure in every way possible.  There was no effort, no emotion, no pride, no appearance of any desire to even be there playing NHL hockey.  I don't think that's what we will see all season, far from it.  But that was no way to start the season, especially after what transpired this summer and fall.  Can you imagine if that was a home game?  The stands would have (or should have) been completely empty by the third period.  It was unacceptable by anyone's standards and especially for a team that says they expect to compete for the Stanley Cup every season.

A couple of you have said the team is due for an overhaul.  I couldn't agree more.  The locker room seems to have become a country club over the last few seasons, there is no price to be paid for under-performing.  Nobody gets traded away, nobody gets let go, nobody gets benched.  Helm's line was the team's best line in way too many games last year.  Other guys continually disappear for long stretches but continue to play here.  Players who don't "fit the system" aren't looked at as possible acquisitions.  Now, what we have is a collection of redundant players and a team that can't adapt to an opponent who outworks the Wings or who can shut down their puck-possession style.  They couldn't dump and chase if their lives depended on it.  An aggressive forecheck is out of the question, 3 or 4 players excepted.  And there's no real hope coming up through the ranks.  Yes, Nyquist, Tatar, Andersson, and Sheahan are all NHL-ready or very close, but what are those guys going to do when they get here?  3rd line, maybe fill in on the 2nd line?  We don't have anyone like Tarasenko, Skinner, Henrique, Andrew Shaw... someone who can quickly step in and produce at an NHL level.  Andersson and Sheahan project as 3rd liners and Nyquist and Tatar have talent but are small.  Same as the roster we have now.  It's time for an organizational shift, this season or this off-season.


Yep. Way too many guys are way too comfortable. You always hear the line's like, "that would've never happened under Bowman's watch" and attribute it to Bowman just being one of the most masterful coaches in the history of sports. But I think in some cases, it boils down to Bowman didn't put up with crap, and if a guy was lazy or half-assing it, he got benched or worse yet, traded the hell out here. If you didn't buy into his system, if you didn't work hard, you weren't coddled. You weren't rewarded with new contracts. You weren't given the same playing time game in and game out. You got benched or traded and all along the way, he was going to be screwing with your head at every opportunity to remind you whose boss.


I've said it numerous times in the last day, and I've been emphatic about it after one game because it's a problem that goes back well before even last season: there are too many guys floating out there and not giving anything close to their best effort. Some say that Babcock's message isn't getting to them anymore, but to me, that just doesn't matter at all. These guys are professionals getting paid a ton of money to play a game. The coach can be an absolute joke as far as I'm concerned and they still should be giving 100% every night. If you're not giving 100% and complaining about the coach, then as far as I'm concerned you can pack your bags and leave. If you give 100% and do what the coach is telling you and it's clear that the coaches strategies just aren't working, then I'll look at the coach. But if you're just floating out there, not even trying to pay mind to the fundamentals, then you have no business whatsoever complaining about the coach. You need an attitude adjustment, and if booting your ass out of town is what it takes, so be it.


I'm really just completely sick of seeing these guys half-ass it. This is not a new problem, and we no longer have the talent to get away with it. Last night was a joke. It'd be funnier if it was a fluke, but when the same old guys make the same mistakes and fail to skate hard, just like the last few years, it really ought to make any fan angry. Again, these guys are getting paid a tremendous amount of money to play a game. There's no excuse for them to play it as lackadaisically as they have the last few years, and now that we've lost the core of our defense, there's no one to hide behind. There's very few guys left on this team that appear to have any pride. The rest are a joke, and to them I say, good riddance. I'd rather have young guys up here working hard, even if it means losing games as they mature, than watch a bunch of underachievers coast and flop around on the ice.

#2342794 Everyone chill out!

Posted by gcom007 on 20 January 2013 - 05:32 PM

What makes you think Filppula is going to give us a good return?  So Selanne likes him.  Teemu is also 41 and not likely to be playing much longer.  So the Ducks are going to trade for him so Teemu can play with is buddy when they don't know how much longer he'll play? So he sucks, lets trade him, and we'll get someone really good in return?  What value does Cleary have? He's old, often injured and overpaid.   Emmerton?  What picks and prospects? 


I always have to laugh when fans think our players suck, but yet they think they're incredibly valuable to someone else.  If small skilled players aren't the "in" thing, why would other teams want them? 


Aside from Dats and Z, who aren't going anywhere, we have no guys who are worth anything alone. Flip and Franzen are the only guys we have that we can live without that will be of any interest to teams that might deal top-end talent, and they both come with significant caveats.


Flip's a very valuable trade asset generally, but not in the final year of his contract, hence why I was suggesting moving him the last couple years especially considering our depth at center and the impending retirement of Lidstrom.


Franzen alone won't be worth as much as he would've a couple years ago either, so again, only thing that might work, and it's still a stretch at this point, is a package with Franzen and Flip and a maybe a prospect and draft pick.


The idea of Cleary having any value is absurd. He might find a way to get it going down the stretch, but even if a team would trade for him, it's not going to net us much in return.


Bottom line, we need major help on D. We need a top-pairing guy who can come in and stabilize the defense and play a lot of minutes. No way that comes in without Franzen and Flip going out, and they won't go alone. We don't have much to work with at this point and we're up against a wall, desperate. The asking price will be high, but Holland doesn't have many choices. Franzen's been floating and inconsistent and it makes sense to just cut the experiment off if we can add a solid defenseman. Flip, as said, is in the final year of his contract, and there's no guarantee that we'll sign him anyways. Sure, we "want" to keep him, but if he expects a big raise and our defense hasn't improved, I have to wonder if we'll even be able to afford him under the new cap. It's early enough in this weird season that Flip might have more value to a team looking to add a strong, experienced 2-way guy especially if they think they can sign him this summer.


And worst case scenario, I think Flip gets dealt at the deadline even if no other moves are made. If nothing gets done before, I don't think this team has a prayer of landing in the playoffs, so dealing Flip for even mid to low draft picks is a better scenario for the team than holding on to him until July 1 just for the sake of holding on to him. They can still try and sign him this summer if they really want to, after all.


But any way you shake it, we're between a rock and a hard place. We need to shake the team up, but we have no leverage and very few worthwhile assets. Add to that the likelihood of a dry free-agent season and we could be in serious trouble for some time. We haven't been a destination spot for a few years now, and it's only going to get worse the way things are going. That's why I really think Holland has to do all he can to make a big move to improve the D. He's got to send a message to this team and the rest of the league that he still wants to win. These current Wings players (sans Dats and Z) could really use a reminder that they're expendable; maybe it'll finally get their feet moving and they'll magically start "hearing Babcock's message."

#2342642 Everyone chill out!

Posted by gcom007 on 20 January 2013 - 12:21 PM

Lots of rust, lots of uninspired play. Perhaps Z is not fully in his Captaincy role yet. I know that both Yzerman and Lidstrom spoke of having to rally the team from a leadership standpoint....it might take a bit for the new C to settle into that. 


As for the rust....well, Howard looked worse than Monster. I'm glad for a big upgrade over last season in the backup role. 


Franzen....this guy is going to get bought out if he repeats this performance all season. 


Not to take anything away from Monster, but by the time he was in, I don't think the Blues were really trying too hard either. They were still skating circles around us, but half as fast as they were earlier in the game.

#2342628 Everyone chill out!

Posted by gcom007 on 20 January 2013 - 11:50 AM

I am not panicking yet, but I can share some of my concerns about last night's game.


1. It looked like an AHL team vs. an NHL team last night - it was that bad.  I don't think I've seen the Wings play a worse 60 minutes of hockey in recent memory.  It wasn't like we got unlucky or couldn't cash in on chances - the Wings had no legitimate scoring chances. 


2. I didn't see a single useful pass from our D to the forwards.  Quincey in particular looked bad. 


3. Franzen - who I am usually a big fan of - was non-existent.  He looked like he was skating through mud.  Same goes for Sammy.


4. Special teams = scary bad.  Is Tom Renney running them? I've lost all faith in Renney's abilities after watching the debacle in Edmonton over the last few years. They've got to fix that. 


BUT, that was only game 1, and it was against a clearly amped-up St. Louis team.  I have no doubt it will get better, I just hope it happens quickly. Also, I liked the way Brunner looked, and I liked Tootoo's speed and energy (I wish he made contact with Tarasenko on that hit attempt).  Tootoo, Helm, and Miller would be a fast line.


BTW, thoughts on Howard?  I actually didn't think he deserved to get pulled - I assume it was more of a mercy move by Babcock. 


I think it was in the first, Colaiacovo had all the time in the world behind the net with the puck and a wide open winger on the left and he makes a breakout pass that was nowhere close to the winger. I didn't know what to say. It was as sloppy of a play as I'd seen. Literally, no pressure, no mad rush, no one forechecking, no one on the winger, and a terrible-awful-no-good-very-bad pass. Mind-numbing.



Holland doesn't determine how the players perform. There isn't the faintest chance that Lidstrom's presence could have salvaged that game.




They're professionals. If they don't show 100%, why are they still here? I don't care if the coach is a joke (I'm not saying I think Babcock is at all), if you don't go out and give 100%, you should get your ass shipped out. There's no excuse in the NHL when these guys are making as much money as they are. The effort many of these players have been putting forth for years now is inexcusable, and the fact that they are still on the Wings roster is very much determined by Ken Holland.

#2342497 Wings Looking For Defenseman

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 11:55 PM

Id let Franzen go in a heartbeat...   for the right return.   Flip on the other hand...  I'd keep him.  I dont want to give him up.  He's good defensively, and offensively.   Franzen at this point... is soft... lazy... and not much time left... let him go.


What other NHL-ready talent do we have that would help us land a top-pairing defenseman? Not only that, there's a very good chance that we might not even be able to afford Flip next year with the new cap if he wants a big raise and we're still in desperate need to improve the defense.

#2342474 1/19: Red Wings 0 at St. Louis Blues 6

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 11:32 PM

Goaltending was pretty bad too. I wouldn't say as bad as the rest of the team, but Howard was pretty awful.


Game 1 and how many breakaways did he face? How many times was he just hung out to dry? How many power play goals? He wasn't outstanding, but he really, truly was the absolute least of the Wings problems tonight. He was the only bright spot at times.

#2342437 1/19: Red Wings 0 at St. Louis Blues 6

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 11:03 PM

Can we for the record squash the Parise and Suter whining..it had nothing to do with the money..they wanted to be Kariya and Selanne part 2  ..Holland offered them as much money as anyone else.


Here is some advice everyone...mix up your favorite beverage whether its whiskey, beer, wine, listerine, dr pepper, sit down..chill the f out and have a short memory.  See you headcases on Monday.




True story. Granted, I think they would've come here for $110 million, but I think it'd be insane to pay that either way. Holland tried to sign them, it didn't work, and that's that. Where Holland really went wrong was all the signings or trades he failed to make leading up to this. He had no real plan and had to fly by the seat of his pants. He's continually let top end talent slip away to sign guys that now are floating out there for us. There's no point whining about about Parise and Suter. If you want to whine, look back further and get realistic. There's still plenty to chew on and cry about.

#2342190 1/19: Red Wings 0 at St. Louis Blues 6

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 10:01 PM

I didn't say that the players are not repsonding, it was on the radio today that there was a rumor going around that Babcock has lost something with the players....not hate, but the coach is ALWAYS the first to go...


Oh and just FYI, Mike Babcock is not Scotty Bowman....nobody is Scotty Bowman...there is a reason why Scotty Bowman has won so much.  If this continues into the 15-20 games, Renney will be head coach...


Wasn't arguing with you really, and I've heard rumblings about that too, I just think it's a little silly given the effort these guys have been giving for awhile. Franzen's been floating for way too long and if Babcock loses something with the players after a Cup win and another Cup appearance in the first couple years to follow that, and the players look lazy and old, I'm personally going to side with the coach.


And sure, no one's Scotty Bowman, but I just remember plenty of talk about Bowman losing his way with the players too, and I remember guys getting booted out if they were unwilling to work. He had that clout, and he had the GM power most of his time here, which was great.


To me, I look at these guys and I say they're all professionals getting paid a ton of money to go out and play a game. Even if the coach is truly a joke and they don't like him, they need to be out giving 100%. There's no excuses for not doing that in the NHL. So even if Babcock isn't getting the message across these days, he's not the only one that should get the boot if it comes to that as far as I'm concerned. Not by a long-shot.


And maybe these guys are playing lazier as well because they've learned that it's next to impossible to get traded when you're a Red Wing and highly likely that you'll get re-signed despite a mediocre effort.

#2342160 1/19: Red Wings 0 at St. Louis Blues 6

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 09:53 PM

I have an idea for a fun game.

Everyone guess

a) which Wing will score first

b) who will get the first assists

c) which month it will happen in


Thanks. I needed a good laugh. This is just grim otherwise.

#2342094 1/19: Red Wings 0 at St. Louis Blues 6

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 09:42 PM

Good God, Lemon...

#2341888 1/19: Red Wings 0 at St. Louis Blues 6

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 08:57 PM

Anyone who thought our D wasn't going to be a mess was kidding themselves. I admit, I was trying to be optimistic as time went on too, but let's get real, losing Rafalski, Stuart and Lidstrom is just a huge blow, especially when you add nothing even remotely comparable to even Stuart. But we talk about that and we don't often talk about the fact that great players like Lidstrom make the guys around them better. So what are these guys going to look like without the Lidstrom-bonus magic skill points? Well, I guess we are starting to really figure that out.


I can't imagine that Holland isn't shifting in his seat tonight, and can't imagine Babcock doesn't want to strangle him right now either.

#2341796 1/19: Red Wings 0 at St. Louis Blues 6

Posted by gcom007 on 19 January 2013 - 08:43 PM

it also bothers me that White wears #18, I keep thinking, "Why are they playing Maltby on defense?"


Posted the same thing a page or two back. Really bizarre still. I wish they'd semi-retire certain guys numbers like Draper, Maltby, Holmstrom, Osgood, McCarty even. Some of these guys that won many Cups and were very important parts of this team for a long time. Why not give their numbers a year or two at least? Not a big deal obviously, but it'd be a nice gesture.