Really. Because last time I checked, the “cap era” began in 2006 right?
2006 - President’s trophy
2007 - WCF
2008 - Stanley Cup champions
2009 - SCF
Anyway, you can credit Lidstrom, Bowman, Nill, Captain America, Marion Illitch’s hairdresser, whoever the f***. Doesn’t matter. The results above speak for themselves and they all most definitely happened in the cap era.
I know it seems like I’m defending Holland but really I’m not. I’d never dream of it today. I’m just saying there has to be a line of sensible thought drawn through all of this mess, and maybe that starts by toning down the hyperbole.
But you have to admit, those years were unique for the Wings, and the team that had the most success was primarily a team built before the cap. When they got back to playing, they had the benefit of a salary rollback and they were able to buyout some deals that weren't close to reasonable with a cap and keep the core of the team together. Not only that, you had the unexpected rise of Franzen, who had his most success when he was making very little money. Zetterberg wasn't making star money until 2009 I believe despite being a bonafide superstar; wasn't his deal before his current contract for less than $3 million? I want to say $2.2 or $2.8. Either one was well below the value he brought to the team at the time.
But I'm not really trying to take anything away from him so much as not given him too much credit for actually building a cap team, because I don't think he had to start building a legitimate cap team until 2009. You have to admit, he was lucky to have Franzen breakout while making next to no money, and getting away with paying Z less than $3 million throughout that period was of tremendous benefit. With that kind of luck and those RFA deals, there are likely a lot of GMs who could've done less than Holland had to and still had a tremendous amount of success.
I mean, seriously, despite the salary cap and despite having a ton of talent up front, those lingering RFA deals allowed him to sign Hossa to a big 1 year deal in the summer of 2008. That's no small or ordinary thing, especially with no cap hit trickery from a longer deal to lessen the blow. For the team to be as loaded with talent as they were in the cap era and still be able to pull that off seems utterly laughable now, but again, we were lucky to have those lingering RFA deals and Franzen became a beast seemingly out of nowhere for a couple years.
When tougher decisions started having to be made in 2009, that is when the reality of the salary cap started weighing down on how this team would be built, and it's been all downhill since. Every summer since the summer of 2009, he's been caught flat footed and unprepared. Even he has flat out admitted that at times, earlier on though more than in recent years.
So sure, he had great success early on in the cap era, but how much that success had to do with him having to build a team in the cap era and how much it had to do with pure luck, rollbacks and outlandishly amazing value on some RFA deals is debatable. Again, I'm not trying to take anything away from his success at that time, but I also don't think that era represents Holland's ability to build a true cap era team, and I don't think it serves as justification to continue to give him more chances after five years of him failing to address needs and countless flat out bad signings.
Brutal, but pretty dead on across the board. I hate to admit it, but this is literally the first time in all my years of being a Red Wings fan that I feel like our team is a joke in the sight of the league. I know people have disliked us for years, and I know that many are just jealous while many others it was just competitiveness, and they still clearly had respect for us. But right now, I feel like this team has become the butt of a league-wide joke, and there's enough people with long memories that are no doubt relishing in our fate.
It's really sad.
It doesn't make me feel any less love for this team, and if anything, it affirms how much I do love this team, because I hate what's happening right now, and yet I still feel as passionately as I ever have about them as a fan. All I can hope for at this point is that someone in the Illitch family steps in to make the call to reassign or fire Holland and we get someone in the GM position that's willing to make some serious changes to shake things up. As I said in another post, it may turn out good though it might turn out horribly, but we've got to try something to turn it around. Worst case scenario, we end up getting in a position to draft the talent we'll need for a real rebuild. Either way, the days of the Holland descent into mediocrity need to end, as soon as they possibly can. He's failed for too long to do what everyone including himself says they need to do, and he's gone on to sign too many players to bad deals. Enough is enough.
He gave up. I can see the "lack of drive" argument. He could've waited all summer to find a deal somewhere else. Maybe Europe? Instead, he signed our worst defensemen who actually cost us at least 16 games last season, gave him a raise, and closed up a roster spot. So basically...we're done on defense. A kid needs to get a chance. Maybe we add someone like Vrbata, but we're basically done up front, too.
So on day one of free agency...Holland has already given up. Sure, we discarded some chaff, but not enough, and we didn't actually get any better. We can only hope we're good enough to get a higher seed in the playoffs and maybe get a more favorable matchup until we run into a team like the Bruins who are built to beat our team.
I think a lot of people realize how terrible this Quincey signing is, but I don't think as many have a grasp of how much it means in the big picture. It's just utterly horrendous. Even if the guy wasn't as bad as he is, it's just such a terrible thing to go and do when our image already in the toilet. You do nothing and you can at least go on trying to minimize what happened today, but signing Quincey to that deal was a grand acknowledgement of the fact that this off-season is already an epic disaster for the Detroit Red Wings.
Let's not overlook the possibility of a trade or two. This was a notoriously weak free agent class yesterday and it didn't improve much by today. The prevailing attitude from most was that the Amazing Kenzini shouldn't overpay for crap. To that end until the Quincey signing he'd done a good job neither paying someone too much nor signing empty calories. But the Quincey thing. I threw up in my mouth a little.
We as Red Wing nation need to decide if we're more upset we didn't sign a player or two who could put us over the top from this crop or are we more upset some free agents may have snubbed Detroit. If it's the former then maybe a big trade might help move the team forward ala Shanahan. If it's the latter then yeah, that sucks. Though I'm sure Niskanen and Dorpik were sold on the Crapitals the moment they got to the Verizon Center and looked up at all those championship banners in the rafters. Perhaps other forces are at work beyond the Red Wings reach ie the status of the city in receivership. They can however build the new stadium YESTERDAY.
I'm hoping a trade can be worked before I start losing faith.
There were more FA options this year than there's been in awhile. Even Holland had the gall to say that when he was feeling pretty confident yesterday. It wasn't rich with superstars, but there were a lot of options that could've helped our defense improve a lot.
And we just gave Quincey a big raise.
And if Holland planned on making a trade, if he had any real confidence in that, why is he overpaying for Quincey now? We're not going to trade other defensemen to acquire a defenseman because we don't have anyone we could trade that would improve the situation. It doesn't make much sense, and even if a trade happens, it doesn't minimize how utterly horrific of a deal this is.
Kyle Quincey is going to make over $4 million from the Red Wings for the next two years.
Say that out loud.
I will be a hardcore Red Wings fan until the day I die. I'm not abandoning the ship. But this is nothing short of af****** joke.
I lost faith in Holland awhile ago, but if he's not replaced soon, I'm going to be losing hope in the ownership, which I haven't wanted to do, especially in light of Mr. I's current state of health. It's a hard and unfortunate situation, but someone in that family needs to step up and do something now. He's had far too many chances to do something, anything, to prove he still has a handle on getting this team going in the right direction, and he continues to come up empty when it comes to addressing the needs we have, and he continues to sign terrible players to terrible deals after the fact.
It's not even worth arguing about at this point: the Red Wings absolutely need a new GM, as soon as possible.
Who knows, but I don't think we're getting NIskanen. At this point, someone, Tampa or otherwise, is going to give him a huge offer, and it's next to impossible to imagine Holland matching let alone beating. And again, should we be upset about that specifically? I'm not so sure, because again, we're talking one big year on a great team. He hasn't proven that much, and that's a lot of money and years to throw at a guy who might not keep it up. The bigger concern is whether we let lower-priced targets go because we were chasing Niskanen. I don't like the way this day is shaping up right now at all.
Anyone else think they may hold off to see if Mantha makes the team before committing to Alfie?
I'm all for getting the kids in the NHL a bit sooner than we have in the past, but give him a year in GR. I wouldn't even go out of my way to call him up unless we got desperate. If he's actually good enough to make the team next year, I'd rather see him make the team out of camp and transition to the NHL out of camp, especially considering that making the team next year is still pretty fast by our standards. Let him take it slow out of camp with no pre-conceived idea of what his NHL role could look like and give him a chance to ease into said role without having to hear people comparing his play to little call up stints which can be hit or miss, though almost never a good indication of what a player will look like on a consistent basis.
Apparently, I'm supposed to get on my knees and blow him for that amazing accomplishment.
Just because he's not a superstar doesn't mean that he couldn't improve the overall quality of our defense quite a bit. Erhoff in and of himself is not a guy worth going crazy over on an individual level like you would a superstar, but what he'd bring to the TEAM in filling out the D would be no small thing. We're not in a position to bring in an elite player either via trade or free agency at this point. We need to make the best of the situation and bring in guys that can help get this team going in the right direction towards being a contender again. Then maybe somewhere down the line we might be able to more reasonably get our hopes up about bringing in top talent. Right now, we just need solid guys to round out a defense that still has some glaring holes in it.
:puke: well, so much for pushing jimmy to be better...get ready for another season of below average jimmy and tons of shootout losses, because neither monster nor jimmy are any good in the shootout. And they are both average to below in general. Typical Holland. Expect a Cleary signing before the draft. Holland is horrendous and needs to be fired. Damn him! Guess he better make that D better because these two guys can't stop s***. Holland has fallen off his wagon. He is by far in the worst 5 GM'S in the league.
I'm no fan of Holland these days, but this is one of those deals that just makes sense when you really step away. It's not a blockbuster but it's hardly an obvious mistake. It's a solid, sensible choice, and the rather obvious one all things considered. This is a backup role, and Gus ultimately did pretty well in the role last year and again, he did his part in the playoffs as best as could be reasonably expected under very difficult circumstances and a lousy defense. He's not the greatest backup ever, but at the price and given what he did last year, there's just no real compelling reason to rock the boat. There are far more important areas to be focusing on then finding a new backup goalie.
If he actually signs Dan Cleary to an NHL deal though, I really will question the sanity of anyone still trying to defend his effectiveness as the GM for the Wings. He may have great skill and knowledge to do the job well, but I think he's lost the edge he needs to do it right in Detroit. He just seems too sentimental here. A change of scenery (or simply a new role in the organization) could be good for him and a fresh perspective at GM with less fond memories for washed up players could be good for the Wings.
Good move, good price. The guy was a solid backup for us last year even in spite of his injuries. He got a lot of wins and stepped in under a ton of pressure in the playoffs and played well there too. Gives the Wings a year to see how Howard is going to bounce back from his worst season before assessing what to do with Mrazek. If Howard comes back and plays well next year, there's no reason he wouldn't play a lot of games as usual, and it doesn't make sense to have Mrazek on the bench for that given Howard's usually high workload. He'll get more games in GR next year and if Howard struggles, the next year it's easier to sell more of a split time which is better for Mrazek.
I'd love to see him back in Detroit if we have room. I think the guy's tremendously underrated at the price point he's at and if given more of a standard role, I think he stands to offer a lot more than other like players. It's hard to see it happening, but who knows given that we could see trades go down that create more openings than expected. I noticed a thread about Cleary coming back. I'm afraid to even open it. It would be insane to me to bring Cleary back and not someone like Eaves who would be cheaper and better at this point. This guy deserves a role and deserves to be playing every night.
Red Wings coach Mike Babcock on Hockey Night in Canada
“When you’ve been in a place nine years like I have, going into my 10th year, it becomes a mutual thing. You want to be someplace where they want you. If they don’t want you, you move on. I’m going to coach in the league for a long time yet, there’s going to be opportunities for me. I like what we’ve done in Detroit; we’ve rebuilt on the fly…I think we have a chance to be better next year and better in the future. So, I tell people all the time: I’ve got a good place to hunt, I’ve got a good place to water ski, my family’s happy, my youngest girl is finishing school next year so I’m free that way. But there’s no reason to move if you don’t have to move or if it doesn’t excite you to. I’ve always been a believer that the grass is greener right here at home as long as you fertilize and water.”
He is not going anywhere! No more Babcock leaving or being fired threads needed. Let the league of idiots have their fun dreaming but that is about all they will get. Babs is home here in Detroit! We did not have to have a long rebuilding process due to our scouting and farm system. Even this past year we could have completed as much as any had we been healthy enough. We add health, more experienced youth, less dead weight and another piece or 2 and we are right back in the thick with a very long bright future to go along with the rich history, best owner and a very good GM (even though I don't like all his moves, or lack of moves).
I doubt he's going anywhere real soon either, but I think you're giving the system a little too much credit on the rebuilding process front. The kids floundered in the playoffs, and if we were healthier, we might've just had an old lineup that couldn't get it done. And the reality is that Z's back is going to force him into a decline quicker than he would if he didn't have back issues. I'm not saying he won't be effective or a great leader, but he is at the very least unlikely to continue to produce at a high level as more time goes by.
And yes, you add health, get some more experience for the kids and less dead weight and we're in better shape for sure on some levels, but a lot of this stuff has been said each summer for 4-5 years now. Very little has been done to improve the roster outside of bringing up prospects that has worked, and that is a very clear fact at this point, not speculation. Until we see some real changes in the way Holland puts this team together, I still think we're ultimately in a slow decline. We will not be able to continue to compete at a playoff level as Dats and Z decline with our defense. Even if Jimmy bounces back from a rough year, our defense is far too often a huge liability and you can't expect your goalie to stop everything. Holland first and foremost has to make a real commitment to improving the defense. If another summer goes by and nothing on that front changes, something in management has to change.
That said, again, I don't think Babcock is eager to jump ship at all and I don't think it'll necessarily happen right away, but I think it's more than fair to infer that he wants to keep his options open for a reason. If he truly believed in how green his grass can be here in Detroit, he wouldn't flat out say that he's not going to sign an extension this summer, especially after Holland flat out said he wants to sign Babcock to an extension this summer. Clearly, it's not about money as Babcock is already one of if not the highest paid coach and Holland would beat any salary another team would throw at him. If it's not about money and he believes that this will continue to be a good place to be, why is he unwilling to talk about an extension?
Sure, there could be nothing to it, but I think there's likely to be something more to it if he's willing to flat out shut down the possibility of something the GM has expressed he wants. Add to that Holland's unwillingness to let Blashill go yet with Babcock's future not set in stone and at the very least, you have two parties that are covering their asses, obviously for some reason.
If Holland again is unable to make this team better and it's another season of struggling just to make the playoffs only to lose early on, it's hard to imagine Babcock won't be interested in at the very least hearing about what's out there. He still might not leave, even if he gets a great offer, as I don't think he's misleading anyone when he says he's happy here. But I don't see him continuing to coach weak teams who's only hope is squeaking into the playoffs. I think we're starting to see that the idea that anyone making the playoffs has a chance isn't is true as it seemed for a few years. Babcock wants to win, bottom line. He's loyal, but he knows full well that this isn't the only job he'll be able to get and he's made that clear several times recently, while also shooting down talks of an extension.
I absolutely think there's a possibility that Babcock could leave next year or sometime in the next 2-3 years, and I do think there's something to the fact that he stated that he doesn't want to sign an extension right now. I don't think that means that he's absolutely leaving next year though at all. I don't think there's anything to the rumors going around about Babcock being set on leaving next year. I don't think he has any plans to leave at this moment, and I certainly don't think he knows where he'd go. Even if Babcock did have some semblance of a real plan, I don't think anyone writing these articles is informed at all about such matters, and are just speculating because Babcock is generally considered to be the top coach in the game right now, the Wings have been struggling, and he's not interested in signing an extension at the moment. I'd bet that what Babcock's said about not wanting to sign an extension is where any legitimate information about the matter ends.
That said, again, I think there's something to that. If I were speculating, I'd say it's a message to the Wings management more than anything. Holland wants Babcock to say and has said that he wants to talk about an extension with him this summer. Babcock is the one who at least at this point has nixed the idea and said he'd do one-year deals after his current contract is up. So if Babcock leaves anytime soon, it's going to be his decision.
If Holland has expressed to the media that he wants to talk to Babcock this summer about an extension, and Babcock has expressed to the press that he's not interested in doing so and wants to do one-year deals after this contract, to me, that's Babcock sending a message to Ken Holland and the rest of the Wings management. I don't think he's saying for sure that he's going to leave, and honestly, I don't think he wants to leave. But I don't think there's any way to interpret what's been said other than to think that Babcock wants to make sure the Wings know that he has options and he's willing to keep the door open on them.
Babcock came to Detroit because it's one of the top organizations in all of sports and we've built a tradition in the last twenty years of being successful and always going for it. But things have been in a steady decline over the last few years and Holland thus far really hasn't done anything to suggest he's willing and able to turn it around. If things continue as they have, I don't expect that Babcock will want to stick around, and I do think that's the message he is sending to management. If this was an internally planned transition to bring Blashill up to take over for Babcock, why would Holland be talking about trying to sign Babs to an extension? Why would Babcock be saying he's not interested in that and will sign one-year deals after this contract expires next summer? Sure, it could all just be a smokescreen, but I really doubt it.
I think Babcock is sending a message that he needs to see a real change and more of an effort from management to put a solid roster together. He knows he can get a job anywhere, and he knows that Holland knows that. And as much as the Wings don't want to lose Blashill, I don't think anyone in management wants to see Babcock move to a team like the Penguins, though I say that for example only, not because I buy the rumors at all. Babcock has had to coach a team of Griffins players into the playoffs now two years in a row, while guys taking up decent chunks of cap space sit in the press box either injured or simply not good enough to crack the lineup. All the while, he has to hear Holland talk about how everyone is too expensive and none of the deals made sense. Like everyone else, do you really think Babcock isn't wondering what part of Holland's strategy the last four years then makes sense? He may truly have a good relationship with Holland, but he's no fool at the end of the day.
Cap space has gone unused. Cap space has been wasted on guys that can't contribute and sit in the press box or play in Grand Rapids. Your so-called stars can't be relied upon to produce. The defense has withered to the point where the pairings read more like a joke someone would have made three years ago. We would've all laughed, because even though the idea of losing Rafalski, Stuart and Lidstrom sounded terrible, it could never get that bad. Welcome to 2014, where yesterday's doom and gloom jokes about the defense have taken shape in reality, but we still were signing more forwards in August last year even though we already had too many.
If Holland turns it around and gives Babcock a roster that features a real defense and a slightly refreshed offense, and it becomes clear once again that we're going to actually take the idea of being a top team seriously, I fully expect Babcock to stay, even if it means losing Blashill. If we see a repeat of the last four summers and another roster full of holes on defense, I think it's very likely Babcock will leave. Maybe he really will take a non-NHL job; who knows? As said, I doubt Babcock really even knows, though I do know for certain that Art Regner nor anyone else writing about hockey on blogs or in papers has absolutely any idea at all.
But given what's been said by Holland and Babcock, I think it's clear that Babs is at a point where he's willing to throw his weight around and send the message that he is not content to continue to polish turd rosters just enough to hopefully eek into the playoffs and lose.