haroldsnepsts

Starting now and for the future?

Yzerman of course.  Same reason Emperor Palpatine wanted Luke Skywalker to replace Darth Vader as his new apprentice.  

Holland has accomplished a lot here, but every GM moves on eventually, and I would have loved to see Yzerman move in as Wings GM because he'll always be a Wing to me.

Only problem I see is him being conflicted and loyal to players he used to play with, which is a large part of this team.  I think he would have felt uncomfortable making moves on some of these players who were his former teammates and friends.  

But alas, it's too late.  Yzerman is not going to leave Tampa anytime soon.  Doesn't strike me as that kind of person.

Holland just re-signed for 5 years anyway.  But when that contract is up, seems like a perfect time for Stevie to come home.  Let Stevie get more experience under his belt there, and by then most of the guys he played with for years  in Detroit will be long gone.

Anyone who says the Sharks outplayed the Canucks in a game where the Canucks outhit, outshot, outchanced and outscored the Sharks.

That's the funny thing about forums.  As much as you Canucks fans try and police and refute what people say about your team all across the internet, people are allowed to think otherwise.

Canucks started to get their legs in the second and took over. The third period was utter domination. I sometimes wonder which games you guy watch.

We're watching the games of two teams we don't particularly care about, whereas you're watching as a hardcore fan of one of them.

Whose perspective do you think is likely more skewed?

weber
gill  
parise  
doughty  

There's no way the Predators are letting their captain go, unless they're scrapping that team.  And even then the Wings fitting him under the cap would probably require Lids retiring.  Any offer big enough to keep the Preds from matching would have to be huge, and cost the Wings a ton of picks.  I'd love to have Weber, but he'd cost the Wings too much.

Doughty is the same thing.  


And no thanks to Frolov, for those who are mentioning his name.  Instead of a space in the Wings locker room they could just build him a doghouse, because that's likely where he'd end up given his questionable work ethic.

For all the beef he gets, Homer plays incredibly smart hockey.  He knows his strengths and weaknesses and he plays a style that maximizes the opportunity to use his strengths and minimizes the chances that his weaknesses will be exposed.  He's the best in the league (still) in front and around the net and plays a smart cycle.  He won't be the first guy out of the zone, but that isn't his job.  In fact his job is usually quite the opposite: to hang down low until the puck definitively leaves the zone. There have been a lot of times where following an offensive zone turnover, the rest of our team bails and starts back-checking only for the puck to be turned over again just inside the blue line.  The team knows to just get it deep because Homer is still down there and will be able to hold the puck down low long enough for the rest of the team to reestablish the zone.  Most other teams just dump the puck (ie turnover) and fall back into the trap.  I've seen Cleary, Bert, and Abby follow this pattern on more than one occasion as well.
Anyways, the rest of our forwards are pretty well rounded.  When you play alongside Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg, you can afford to not be a great backchecker, or have strong playmaking/stickhandling skills.

I like what Homer can bring to the table.  Still.

Agreed.  Homer has an extremely limited skillset, but he does make the most of it.  The biggest factor in him being worth his contract or not is if he stays healthy.

And I also think he doesn't get enough credit for his puck retrieval skills.  Datsyuk is great in the corners  because he's a pickpocket and dipsy-doodles and comes out with the puck.  Homer goes in and just hacks and whacks and battles and often comes out with the puck, then dishes it to a playmaker.  If the puck ends up in the corner, he goes and battles again and dishes it off.  And will do it again, and again, and again.

"Having played center most of his life, Ericsson  enjoys an impressive skill-set. He has excellent mobility and agility  for a player his size, possesses solid hands, has above average puck  skills, and makes a very good first pass. His shot’s not too shabby  either, having recorded a 100.1 mph slap shot at the 2008 AHL skills  competition.

But don’t let his soft hands fool you. He plays a  physical brand of hockey with a willingness to protect his teammates by  dropping the gloves."

Bleacher report scouting Report 2008

I highlighted what was talked about him by almost everyone.  A big shooter that wouldnt think twice about taking care of business. Sounds like Nick crossed with Kron to me.  Isnt that why they were pairing him with Nicky during the 09 cup? I remember them saying that he was being taught to play like Nick.  That ended in failure.  Ill give you this, he finally stopped trying to poke check pucks away and at least attempted to get in front of it as well as he could.

As far as his size is concerned, you claim he add some size at the blueline as an asset.  What good is size if he is either unwilling or unable to use it?  Potential is one thing, hell I had the potential to be an NBA basketball player except I didnt shoot good enough for a guy that is 6'6".  Just cause Im tall and have some size doesnt mean I was able to play at the level required for the DRW.  He is far from physical and a serious pushover.  Like I said and you seem to acknowledge is that he doesnt use his body to his advantage.

His first pass is fine as long as there isnt a forecheck that is worth a damn on the ice. His dump pass into the zone is scary soft and almost always ends in a quick outlet pass the other way right past him.  Again potential vs results.  Potential:10 Results: -100

As far as saying that it sounds like an emotional argument from you and some others, you sound like a codependent spouce of an alcoholic.  "Hell get better" is the operative phase.  We arent rebuilding a team last time I checked, people like myself expect results from the team.  I get angry because he is given too much time and as of yet I dont have an indication that he is gonna get dropped.

As far as his failure as a player being blamed on him?  What can I say hes out there on the ice and he aint doin s***.

As far as it being Holland fault instead?  Who are you gonna trade him to?  He thought he was gonna be awesome just like Babs and everyone else including me at the time. He actually played ok in 09 but that must have been freshman luck cause 4 months later and he stunk to high heaven.

Its Hollands fault if he keeps him.  Like the saying goes, Trick me once shame on you, Trick me twice, Shame on HOLLAND.  

I guess we will have to agree to disagree about how good he actually is and what hes worth.

Oh and Salei is no better, except that he volunteered to not play for weeks at a time.  That was nice.

I didn't say he shouldn't be blamed for his failures on the ice.  What I actually said is he shouldn't be blamed for Detroit's defensive aging core and Holland not making bigger moves to replace it.  He's just one player and is only responsible for his performance.

Though I have no idea why you'd think it, even from that Bleacher Report article (which is basically a blog by a Wings fan, isn't it?), but if you seriously thought Ericsson was going to be a cross between Lidstrom and Kronwall, I can understand why you'd be disappointed.

I've stated my case.  If you've actually read my posts, I think I've given a fair assessment of Ericsson and am not pinning it on some grand hopes he'll improve one day.  But you've misrepresented so many of my points here it's not really worth continuing. You hate Ericsson to an irrational degree.  You're in good company here.

For his size he should easily be leading that category, should he not?  Helmer hits more effectively and is quite a bit smaller, Hell D hits harder than Ericsson.

Turnovers are way more telling and the breakpoint for a Defenseman.  Unfortunatley there is no live stats for time holding the puck.  At that point you can determine how effective a player is at holding on to it while its in his possesion.  Youre going to expect players that have the puck a lot such as D and Z to have more turnovers on average. D-men dont have the puck as much so they shouldnt be turning it over.

Your logic is flawed.

Detroit relies on their defenseman greatly to move the puck up ice more than most teams.  It's why they have guys like Lids, Rafalksi, Kronner, and yes, Ericsson.  They may not be holding on to the puck as long, but they're making a lot of passes out of their own end under high pressure situations.  Having to make a tough breakout pass that often is going to lead to turnovers.

In the regular season, 4 of the 5 players with the most turnovers were Rafalski, Ericsson, Stuart, and Kronwall.  The fact that Lids is so far down the list is just another reason why he's so damn good.  

Look at Rafalski, he has 1 more turnover than Ericsson in the regular sesason but has over 30 points MORE while playing 11 games LESS.

So for people to somehow say that Raffy is no good need to get their head examined. He trails only Nick in points for Dmen.  

We can breakdown box scores and stats all day and I still dont see any compelling proof that he has what it takes for our team.  We have the opportunity to bring in some known good talent to bolster our D and he should be first to go

Kron has established himself as a banger and de is one of the best in the league.  

Jiri Fischer was a banger and unfortunately was probably sick more than he wasnt

I dont expect points from Kron, I expect him to destroy people.

Ericsson was brought up to be somewhat like Pronger, a big guy that should be able to establish position with his body and be able to shoot due to being trained as a forward.  He cant do either, hell he cant bring a puck up ice for christ sake.

If we kept him hed be best as a scratch player coming in for injured players. Bottom pairing with 82 games is too much for such a crap ass player.

I wish I could see optimism in him as some here do but I see a lemon, no more and no less.

Ericsson was brought up to be like Pronger?  Where did you get that idea?

That may have been your expectation of him, but I never heard any coach or scout thinking he could be Pronger.  As I said in my other post, a knock against him has always been not using his size well enough and not having  mean streak.  

And did you really just compare Rafalski to Ericsson?  If you expect E to come anywhere close to Rafalski in points, it's no wonder you hate him.

Firstly, that was how he was touted to the fans.  Big Rig, Big E... "forward turned big man on the ice"  
-Hows that working?

"He was drafted dead last"
   -Kinda proves my point

By who?  Who said that he would be the next Lidstrom who hits like Kronwall? I never heard anyone say anything even close to that about him.  Babcock called him a stud in one quote, but that's about it.  Even in Grand Rapids they were saying he needed to bulk up and play with a mean streak.  Eeven among his supporters I don't remember anyone here ever saying he'd be a Lidstrom with Kronner's hitting.  Actually, anyone comparing any d-man on the Wings to Lids AND Kronner would get laughed at, for starters.  

I couldn't find the Red Wings prospect review, but on hockeys future they said he could develop into a #4-6 D-man, which still sounds about right.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/jonathan_ericsson

Exactly what point of yours does his being drafted last prove?  My point was it should give some indication of expectations for him, or how the fact he's in the lineup at all is a win for the Wings.

"Hes a servicable bottom pairing guy"
   -Please define "servicable" cause putting somethin g into service and having it work well are two different things. He brings no upsides and as of yet I have heard none of them other than what seems to be emotional needs for him to play well.

"If the Wings can find someone better and cheaper, Great"
   - You have my verdict on how good he is.  For equivalent money I could find some decent talent that needs a bit of polishing and has grown up a Dman.  Ericsson is 27 almost 28, he is getting past his prime quick and has shown nothing to prove hes good. For 2 mil a year there would be a line of guys available for the job that could be 4th man maybe 3rd.

" It's ridiculous how much hate he gets here as the #5 D-man.  There were much bigger issues with the team."
   -Short memory eh?  We and everyone else knew that our D was falling apart a few years ago.  We needed up and coming Dmen to learn to take over for our aging guys. Now that we are at the point where we need capable guys to fill vacating spots its far from rediculous to be upset with who was supposed to be an up and comer.

The way I see it, if we needed a guy that needed time to grow he would be on the Griffins.

So tell me, what makes Ericsson so good?

Emotional needs for him to play well?  I'm not sure what you're referring to.  You seem to be the one who has a lot more emotions involved when it comes to Ericsson.

I have talked about Ericsson's upsides in several posts.  His biggest asset to the team is probably his puck moving ability.  Ericsson has a very good first pass.  Better than Stuart and Salei.  It leads to some brutal turnovers because he doesn't seem to have it between the ears yet.  But it's his second full season.  I'm guessing Detroit is hoping his decision making will continue to improve and there will inevitably be growing pains as he tries to stretch his role on the team.

His size is also an asset.  He's not as physical as he should be, but the Wings blueline is undersized and he provides some.  He'd be a greater asset if he played nastier.  And to be clear, I'm not saying Ericsson is some awesome defenseman.  But he's big, somewhat physical, will drop the gloves on occasion, good passer, cheap, relatively young, and could still improve.  Put that all together and he's a decent bottom pairing guy.

And now you're saying $2 mill to replace him.  If we're talking about re-signing E for that, then that does add to potential other D-men out there.  I was saying around 1.25 mill.

No short memory here.  Again, you seem to be angry because Ericsson didn't turn out to be a savior for the Wings defensive corps.  I don't think anyone realistically thought he would be that.  Everything I saw he was projected to be a #4-6 d'man.  If he turns out to be that, it's a win for the Wings.  And either way I don't see why Ericsson should take all the blame for not replacing the Wings aging defensive corps.  Isn't that Holland's job?

This is a statement that is made anytime we talk about how we need to get younger.  

Is he overpaid now?  Yes.  
Was he overpaid at the time of his signing?  Maybe slightly.

Would he get six million if we re-signed him next year?  Not a chance.
Are we going to re-sign him? Probably not.

Is he going to get traded?  No.

NEXT.

I don't think he was even overpaid at the time of his signing.  Sure the term was a little longer than I'd want, but it's likely what Holland had to do to bring him here.  He was not in a strong negotiating position.

At the end of the 07 season Schneider jumped ship for $5.6 million with Anaheim, leaving a major hole in the Wings defense.  Holland was scrambling for a #2 D-man and found Rafalski who similar to Schneider was a puck-moving defenseman good for 40-50 points (which is what Schneider was until he was paired with Nick and had two career seasons), who fit into the defense puck-moving system in Detroit, was younger than Schneider, a two-time Cup winner, and a local boy to boot.  

Everyone wants to kill Rafalski when he makes a bad turnover, but for every one of those there's the tremendous outlet passes and quarterbacking the power play.  More than even Lidstrom, Rafalski stretches the Wings offense and keeps the other teams defense honest.  Because skating in front of his own net he's capable of rocketing a pass to a forward headed towards the offensive blueline.

Yes the contract looks less good now that we're in the last two years and his play has tapered a bit.  But it's unfair to just look at him now and call him overpaid.  At the time it was a good signing, and considering how 2008 worked out (and even 2009), it was worth it.

The giveaway and hits stat is...  quite sad.

The points stat isn't.  He was supposed to be the defensive defenseman on the Jonny-Rafi pairing.

Ericsson still isn't as physical as I'd like, but if we're going to quote hits stat, let's take a more complete look.

Ericsson had 107 hits in 74 regular season games, averaging less than 19 min TOI.
Kronwall had 113 hits in 3 more games, averaging almost 4 more minutes per game.  
Salei had 117 and Stuart led the Wings with 131.
Lids and Raf both had 49.

In the postseason he was second to Kronwall with 23 hits  (Kronner had 26).


And honestly hits is a pretty suspect stat anyway.  Like I said Ericsson needs to play more physical,  but using that stat as some negative of his is just looking for things to rip on him about.  Because given his ice time, those numbers actually make him look more aggressive than he is.

Well he blew that.  Thing is everything I always read/heard about what they were hoping from him was a big body Dman with the hands of a Forward since thats what he tried to be and failed doing.  

The rationale was that Johnny Turnover would be Nicky with Krons hitting abilty. sadly I cant find the link I had posted on a different forum where he actually stepped out of the way of a puck being shot which screened Howie and led to a goal.  Cant remember the team, wanna say the Stars, the Blues or Blue Jackets.

People that have seen him play in person have a whole new level of disdain for him.  TV tends to stay with the puck so you cant see what he is doing on the ice but it takes bad play to a whole new level.

My point with this is that he has been given a chance.  Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt that hes new to the position, how long do you let someone screw things up before moving on? If Detroit wants a half assed D man that is 6'6 220, they can hire me.  Ill play for league minimum and would probably show more heart and try than him.  Hope he goes to the minors, no team deserves what he brings.

Who's rationale was that??  He was drafted dead last and is a converted forward just finishing his second full season in the NHL.

As I said, he's a serviceable bottom pairing guy.  If the Wings can find someone better and cheaper, great.  But it's not as easy as people think.  It's ridiculous how much hate he gets here as the #5 D-man.  There were much bigger issues with the team.

I used to be a fan, but I'm so over Joe Thornton.  Especially after hearing the post game interviews of him.  Hearing him say how they don't care what people are saying, they knew they could do it.  blah blah blah.

Thornton, Heatley, and Marleau account for almost $22 million of cap space.  

Marleau had one point.  (Who cares if it's the series winner.  Had he showed up earlier there wouldn't have been a game 7)
Heatley had a goal and three assists.
Thornton had zero goals and 6 assists.  4 of which came on the power play.  

Those guys were carried by players like Couture, Setoguchi and Clowe.  (Guys who really stepped up their game in the postseason (If you're keeping score those guys together eat up less than $7 mill cap space).  So it was a little hilarious to here Joe going on about how he believed.  I guess the part he wasn't saying was he believed "that my teammates would save my ass."

How about throwing some more love to the guys who carried you Joe?

Logan Couture, we simply don't have second tier scoring like that with Franzen out of the lineup.

Injuries certainly didn't help and Abdelkader and Hudler were not very good.

Mostly this.

The media is probably already writing the revisionist history about how good Thornton was most of this series, but the big guns on San Jose - Thornton, Marleau and Heatley didn't do much.  Pavelski too, who I feel is often a Wings killer, was pretty quiet.  At the beginning of the series if you had told me those guys were limited to as few points as they were, I would definitely have liked the Wings chances.

But Clowe, Setoguchi, and Couture stepped up big time.  Boyle too.  Other than Thornton's faceoffs, those other guys were the heart of that team against Detroit.

Franzen, Bert, Cleary, Hudler were too injured and/or could not compete at that level.  Datsyuk and Zetterberg can only do so much.  

It also shows that regular season wins do matter when they give away what should be easy points.  If the Wings had picked up one more win in the regular season, they would've had home ice against the Sharks.  Not sure how much of a difference it would've made, but it wouldn't have hurt.  Especially in game 7 when early on they were getting dominated in the faceoff circle.

Did he adjust the penalty calls for the Canucks gooning it up in games 4 and 5 when they were getting blown out?

Detroit went 16-4 in 1997. (Blues 4-2, Anaheim 4-0, Colorado 4-2, Philadelphia 4-0)

That's part of why I think the 97 lineup was the most dominant of the Wings Cup-winning teams.  Talented, tough, and they were on an absolute mission.