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#2319779 Red Wings make "helluva" offer for Nash, no response

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 18 July 2012 - 01:09 PM

For real... I am scratching my head at the lack of intellectual honesty being displayed in some of these posts. "I heard..." and "Reports say..." ....and therefore Holland blows!!!! eh... really?

IF it's true that Holland made a "hell of a offer" ... we can probably safely assume that it was something *more* than Franzen, prospect, pick or Fillpula, prospect, pick......

The thing is the "helluva an offer" is an equally weak source.

The reality is we don't really know anything more than we did before. Either way, it seems extremely unlikely the Blue Jackets would deal Nash to Detroit.

#2319490 Doan staying in PHX 4 yrs $21.2 mill

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 16 July 2012 - 08:20 PM

I never really thought Doan was leaving Phoenix. Did anyone really?

No, but I thought Phoenix might be leaving Phoenix.

#2319489 Dominik Hasek's agent: "He will play, and he will excel"

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 16 July 2012 - 08:16 PM

From hockey memes twitter


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#2319421 Semin

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 16 July 2012 - 10:30 AM

True but its not like we are giving assets to acquire him. If he bolts he bolts and we dont have to get rid of his contract or pay him if it doesnt work.


I just meant that you think you've got a player locked up for a certain number of years and then suddenly there's a hole in your lineup that you could've tried to fill some other way.

Like when Hudler took the Wings to arbitration that commits him to signing with the Wings so I'm guessing Holland was counting on him being in the lineup. Then suddenly he bolted to the KHL and you're short a player and free agency options are limited.

#2319280 Reminder: Personal attacks, trolling will not be tolerated

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 15 July 2012 - 12:42 PM

To me, this is the heart of it:

Avoid personal attacks against individuals but practice criticism of ideas. The focus should be on increasing our combined knowledge, not on putting people down.

#2319132 How bad are we if our roster is now finalized?

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 14 July 2012 - 01:26 PM

This is not true. The fellow said he had examples. I'm only asking him to share them.

Whatever the case, there are a very limited number of defensemen who could be suitable replacements for Lidstrom. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable for one to name whom they feel would have been plausible pick-ups for this purpose.

That misrepresents people's arguments here, which has the not-unintended effect of making their position even more difficult to prove. Replacing Lidstrom is pretty much impossible. I don't think anyone expected Holland to go out and replace one of the best D-men who's ever played the game. Even getting Suter wouldn't have done that. But that's not the same as saying he could do more to improve the defense and could have better prepared for Lidstrom's eventual retirement.

And you may not think it's an unreasonable request, but the reality is it's awfully difficult to prove something that didn't happen. Which not coincidentally also puts you in a pretty advantageous position to argue from. You get to defend what actually happened but expect someone to build a concrete case for some hypothetical alternative that was both possible and would improve the team. It's like if the Wings lost a game and someone here was complaining about their effort, expecting them to name a shot that someone could have taken that almost certainly would have scored.

I don't think it's fair to conclude that. I can't know what I would think of them if I haven't heard them.

True. I was just making an educated guess based on every response you've ever had to someone proposing a move that Holland could have made.

This is a discussion forum. If we were all content to simply sit and watch, we wouldn't be discussing anything. As is, possible scenarios are discussed on an daily basis here.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the portion of my post you quoted or why you feel the need to inform a moderator here as to what the purpose of this board is.

It's a point you should take to heart though. As you make the obvious point, this is a hockey discussion board. So people will come here to express their displeasure with Holland if they feel like it. That makes perfect sense to me, even if I don't agree with them. They dont' have to construct an argument that meets your standards in order to be able to criticize Holland, or anyone on the Wings for that matter.

That's not my position at all. I do realize that I spend a lot of time defending Holland on here, but that doesn't mean that I believe he's perfect. I simply believe that he's one of the best out there and should not be called an atrocious factor for the Wings, particularly over the matters that aren't reasonably within his control. I certainly feel that he has made mistakes. The 2009 offseason very much stands out in that category.

As for Ericsson, I still don't like how the guy plays.

What should Holland have done in 2009? Who should he have signed? Using 2009, you could set an example here to show others how to properly build a case for criticizing Holland.

As for Ericsson, considering he was drafted dead last and a converted defenseman, I would've thought you'd consider him one of Holland's greater successes. Ericsson was among the better d-men this season, especially in the playoffs. Holland took a player who was basically an afterthought and now has a #4/5 D-man who can play 18+ minutes a night.

#2318995 Holland Content with Current Roster

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 13 July 2012 - 03:00 PM

A great post on RWC that applies her as well

Phoenician wrote:
Tripe? Did I hit a nerve or something?

Listen, I am all about hearing other’s opinions. Where I take exception, is when those opinions get to the extent of calling for the firing of someone (Ken Holland), who has been able to keep this franchise more competitive than any other. Has he done a perfect job? No. But the general consensus (at least from those in the league) seems to be he is one of the best GMs in the league. I guess I am so appreciative of what I have observed (as a life-long Red Wings fan), over the past two decades, the complete lack of respect comes across as simply ludicrous. As Red Wing fans, we have witnessed one of the best runs of success, in modern sports history (am I wrong here professor?). Yet a lot of people here seem to have absolutely no appreciation for that. Can we at least let actual failure materialize, before we organize the Ken Holland lynch mob? Maybe I am drinking the kool-aid. Mmmm… now that’s f---in good. Or maybe, it is because I had a front row seat for the Red Wings of the 70’s and that has given me a little different perspective on where this franchise currently sits. God forbid the day this franchise is forced to go into a real rebuilding period. I suppose then we will see who the bandwagon fans are. Buddy! I’m not your friend pal!

It’s not opposing opinions that drive me crazy. But the lack of respect and completely unrealistic expectations kind of rub me the wrong way. How is that for tripe?

Enjoy your menudo senor.

The thing is, how many people here are actually calling for the firing of Ken Holland? It's been what, maybe 4 people? I'm not even sure because I think the jokes being made about people saying fire holland probably outnumber the people actually saying it by ten to one.

There's a huge difference in expressing your disappointment in what's happened so far this offseason and even the last few seasons, then calling for him to be fired.

#2318777 Reminder: Personal attacks, trolling will not be tolerated

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 12 July 2012 - 08:15 PM

So, you disagree with this assessment? :D

I think most SANE Wings fans would. At the same time, he is entitled to his opinion. Just like I have stood up for the refereeing that many people here think is ungodly bad. Does my opinion about the refereeing fall into the "trolling" category just because it differs from the majority? No.

To be totally honest, I believe they should be shutting down people who are levying personal attacks against other members. There is a way to have a great debate on a topic. Levying personal attacks isn't the way to go.

Absolutely agree.

Though I don't agree with the post you quoted, he's at least talking hockey. If people would stick to that we'd be fine. It all goes to hell when people start attacking the person for their unpopular opinion. Plus some of the smarter trolls toe the line and antagonize people without it necessarily being an outright personal attack.

I don't want to speak out of turn (correct me if I'm wrong fellow mods) but Matt and the mods prefer to keep things on the looser side around here so people can speak their minds rather than clamp down on every little thing. I think in general it makes is a more fun place to talk hockey, but it also does mean there's some irritating stuff that you have to live with on occasion.

#2318656 How bad are we if our roster is now finalized?

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 12 July 2012 - 01:33 PM

Translation: you don't have any examples. Because it would have taken you substantially less time to simply list them than it has for you to type up numerous posts about why you aren't giving any. Have fun yelling.


Your position seems to be that unless someone can provide concrete examples of players that were available, trades that almost definitely would go through, and would almost certainly improve the team, they shouldn't complain.

That's an absurd expectation. At the time who would've predicted that Holland could get Stuart from the Kings for a 2nd and 4th pick? Or taking the Kings as an example, who would've thought they'd get Richards for Simmonds, Schenn and a pick? Or trade a defenseman they'd recently signed long term to bring in Carter? And that both of those trades would be huge factors in their Cup win?

It's likely you would've shot down all of those trades as unrealistic or wouldn't improve the team. But who the hell knows until they actually happen?

If I could provide those kind of examples beforehand, I'd take Holland's friggin job. I'm not complaining because I think he sucks. I'm complaining because I think he's one of the best GM's in the NHL, so he better be able to come up with some moves that the average fan couldn't know about.

It's awful hard to provide irrefutable evidence for a trade that didn't happen. That doesn't mean I can't be unhappy with what Holland is saying and doing. For now I'm withholding full judgment until the summer is over. But Lidstrom retiring is something he and management should've started planning for 10 years ago. Looking at our blueline right now, it sure doesn't feel like they did.

Your position seems to be that if Holland made the move, it was the right one. If he didn't, it wouldn't have made the team better or it would've cost too much. The only thing I've heard you complain about regarding Holland was Ericsson, which you were wrong about.

#2318572 Holland Content with Current Roster

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 12 July 2012 - 10:38 AM

He is not. I read it the same way, because, well, thats exactly what it said. That Quincy and Smith will "replace" (the exact word he used) Stuart and Lidstrom.

Oh, and I am not some doom and gloom negative person about this off season, I've been staying positive and hoping for the best, so you cannot attempt to refute MY comment by passive attacks and accusing me of only being negative like you did with him. ;)

Well, they will replace him. But that doesn't mean it's an equal replacement.

The Wings lost one of the greatest D-men to ever play the game, and a solid middle pairing guy. Quincey will hopefully be okay but not great once he gets used to the pairings and system. They're bringing in a talented but very green rookie who has played a whopping 14 NHL games in his career. And now they're also relying on Kindl, who couldn't manage to hold the #6 spot convincingly and didn't see a lick of ice time in the playoffs.

It's hard to feel good about the Wings defense right now.

#2318219 Semin

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 11 July 2012 - 12:00 PM

I honestly don't know, but it is discouraging to see him say that in the media.

Semin would be a great winger for Datsyuk, take off some pressure of our secondary guys, and possibly redefine himself in a Wings uniform. Holland needs to spend some of this cap space one day or another.

Maybe after the Suter/Parise signings, he's downplaying it to try and keep yet another free agent signing from turning into an episode of the bachelor.

That is a serious concern, but I can't help but think that if he wanted to bolt to the KHL, he'd be there already. I mean, it's no secret that he's not going to get paid as much here as he would there, so what's stopping him you know?


But there could be the fear that he'll play for a year under contract, and if he doesn't like it then he bolts to the KHL where he doesn't have to work as hard, and the Wings (or whoever signed him) lose him for nothing.

#2318158 Six teams on Nash's trade "list", none Canadian

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 11 July 2012 - 10:34 AM

Big difference in cap hits too


It's probably partly influenced by my never really liking Nash, but it seems like for Columbus to trade him to a team in their own division, the Wings would have to give up a ridiculous amount to acquire him.

Hockey reasons aside, even just from a public relations standpoint it would be a nightmare for the Blue Jackets to trade Nash to Detroit. It'd be hard to find a better way to piss off the fans. Yes, I know the Hawks did it with Chelios, but as bad as the BJ's are, I don't know if they're really as dysfunctional as the Blackhawks organization was back then.

#2317915 Reminder: Personal attacks, trolling will not be tolerated

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 10 July 2012 - 07:52 PM

That's a good point for sure. However, I felt it was worth pointing out the now proactive stance against personal attacks should be mimicked by a proactive stance against the type of trolling I alluded to. But thanks for pointing out a useful tool that most likely gets severely underutilized.

The report function does get underutilized. I'm not sure if it's a "snitches end up in ditches" mentality or what.

When someone trolls or makes a personal attack, basically the thread (and therefore the forum) gets crappier. The more personal attacks and trolling, the crappier this forum gets. Reporting a post isn't tattling as much as it is calling a mods attention to a mess so they can clean it up and keep the quality of the site higher. We're not the police here as much as we are janitors.

As I've said before, the forum is only as good as the content you guys provide. Post good stuff and the forum gets better. Post garbage and it turns to garbage.

#2317882 Reminder: Personal attacks, trolling will not be tolerated

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 10 July 2012 - 06:25 PM

After the forum upgrade it seems people need a refresher on the forum rules. Here's the one I keep having to quote as I'm warning people:

· DON'T personally attack other members. This includes name-calling, flame-baiting, etc.. If you can't discuss your point with maturity then don't discuss it. People that violate this rule will be dealt with swiftly.

Here's another good one:

· DO post constructively. If you can't add anything meaningful to a discussion, don't bother.

I suggest people re-read the forum rules.


I know everyone's a little jumpy waiting to see what Holland will do next, but personal attacks will not be tolerated and will result in suspension.

Furthermore, mocking other members about their reaction to signings is still trolling and off topic and will be punished.

For example, in a thread about Holland and free agency, someone posting "They should fire Holland" is a valid opinion, even though it's not particularly well thought out and is an extreme reaction. But in a thread about some other topic, chiming in saying "Fire Holland" to mock that member is trolling, which will result in deletion of the post and punishment.

Make sense?

Also, if you make a brilliant and insightful post about the Wings or hockey in general, but the last line of your post contains a personal attack, all your hard work will be deleted and you will likely be suspended for your efforts. As I've been saying over and over, discuss the content of the post and not the person making it.

Everybody say it with me now.

#2317851 Winter Classic ticket e-mail codes sent out, purchase available

Posted by haroldsnepsts on 10 July 2012 - 05:49 PM

People need to focus on the content of the post, and not the person posting it.

If you don't have anything to add other than a smartass comment, move on and don't post in the thread.

I'm tired of the posts where people are mocking some of the previous overreactions here about free agency. While some people may be overreacting to the state of the Wings, it's at least an honest attempt to discuss the situation. The mocking posts are simply trolling and make the situation even worse.

Stay on topic or people will be getting vacations.