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#2683634 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Dabura on 22 July 2016 - 12:54 PM

I get the frustration, but I personally think the Nielsen signing was needed. We couldn't go into the season with Zetterberg / Sheahan / Larkin as our top 3 centers. Zetterberg needs his minutes cut, Larkin isn't ready for number one center duty, and while Sheahan can play 2nd line center in a pinch, I think he's better suited in the bottom 6. I'm one of the few that wanted Helm back, and while it may be half a mil too high and a couple years too long, I think it was a good signing. Vanek is a low risk, high reward signing, but I would have preferred to see a kid get that spot. The Miller and Ott signings are a complete joke... Without the latter three signings we could have had a few more spots open for the kids, who are mostly deserving of spots anyway... Of the players that you mentioned though, I only think Athanasiou and Mantha are ready to be full time NHLers. I'm completely fine with Bertuzzi spending another season in Grand Rapids, and honestly, I don't see Nosek as a high quality NHL player anyway. He might be a decent 3rd line center, but I'd much rather have Helm or Sheahan fill that spot...


The Nielsen signing was absolutely necessary. I'm just painting an overall picture. We signed three past-their-prime veterans (at least one of which we absolutely, positively do not need in any way, shape or form) and re-signed two past-their-prime veterans (at least one of which we absolutely, positively do not need in any way, shape or form). I see a lot of people looking at these signings and saying a trade must be coming. I look at these signings and ask, "How is this any different from last year, or the year before that, or the year before that, or the year before that?"




ST. PAUL – The moment Mike Babcock learned the San Jose Sharks had acquired defenseman Brent Burns, he instantly got the look of a guy who’s team just let one get away.

His Red Wings are looking for a defenseman to replace the retired Brian Rafalski, but it was the playoff rival Sharks who pried the talented Burns away from the Minnesota Wild in a blockbuster trade.

“They just hit a home run,” Babcock said of the Sharks. “That’s a gold medal pick. I’m pissed off.”


That was five years ago. We're still waiting on That Trade for That Defenseman.

#2683505 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Dabura on 20 July 2016 - 06:25 AM

If it's anyone, it's going to be Fowler. It is well known that Holland wants him. More than one hockey insider has said that's his target. Things could change of course...

I still think it'll cost us a fwd, D and prospect. It'd be nice if we could get away with a fwd and prospect D. Of course that would make Smith #7 again.


It'll be Fowler, Edler, Quincey, or Tyutin. Because Red Wings.


The thing that continues to piss me off: I know there are deals out there, ready to be made. We all know it, whether we want to admit it or not. This whole "trades are impossible" situation isn't about other GMs asking for far too much, it's about Holland being completely and utterly unwilling to part with a single significant asset. (Unless we're getting an over-the-hill rental at the trade deadline, in which case Holland will give away young assets like they're going out of style. Because Red Wings.) I mean, sure, things would be easier -- on multiple fronts -- if we had more pieces that other GMs find decidedly super-attractive, but you know what those pieces tend to be? Young, hugely talented high-end players. The kind Holland actively hates, because "They don't know how to play without the puck" and because "Kids aren't the answer" and blah blah f****** blah. Because Red Wings.

#2683496 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Dabura on 19 July 2016 - 05:30 PM

I have to believe this surplus of forwards is for a greater cause.



#2683279 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Dabura on 15 July 2016 - 04:47 PM

I certainly think players need to earn their ice time. That theory is not incorrect. The issue I have is some of them already have earned it but didn't get it last year. 


Same here. I'm ok with kids having to earn their ice time. I'm not ok with how the Wings go about enforcing this policy. It's like something out of a Joseph Heller novel...



A catch-22 is a paradoxical situation from which an individual cannot escape because of contradictory rules.[1][2] An example would be:


To apply for a job, you need to have a few years of experience. But in order to gain experience, you need to get a job first.


Catch-22s often result from rules, regulations, or procedures that an individual is subject to but has no control over because to fight the rule is to accept it. Another example is a situation in which someone is in need of something that can only be had by not being in need of it. One connotation of the term is that the creators of the "catch-22" have created arbitrary rules in order to justify and conceal their own abuse of power.


[ . . . . ]


Joseph Heller coined the term in his 1961 novel Catch-22, which describes absurd bureaucratic constraints on soldiers in World War II. The term is introduced by the character Doc Daneeka, an army psychiatrist who invokes "Catch 22" to explain why any pilot requesting mental evaluation for insanity—hoping to be found not sane enough to fly and thereby escape dangerous missions—demonstrates his own sanity in making the request and thus cannot be declared insane. This phrase also means a dilemma or difficult circumstance from which there is no escape because of mutually conflicting or dependent conditions.[3]


"You mean there's a catch?"


"Sure there's a catch," Doc Daneeka replied. "Catch-22. Anyone who wants to get out of combat duty isn't really crazy."


There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's own safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane, he had to fly them. If he flew them, he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to, he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.


(Catch-22 is one of the greatest novels ever written, IMHO.)

They can't become good nhl players if Holland blocks them from playing because of Helm and Glendening


Exactly. I hate the Helm extension and the Glendening extension, largely for this very reason.

#2683275 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Dabura on 15 July 2016 - 04:12 PM

After the Streak ends or the record is broken, change will happen.


I doubt it.


"Y'know, we only missed the playoffs by a couple points. If we win one more shootout, we're probably in. And once you're in, you've got as good a chance as any other playoff team. At the end of the day, we're a team in transition. We like our team. I know there are people who want us to tank, but I've never bought into that kind of thinking. We're gonna keep doing what we've been doing. We're not going to blow everything up because we missed the playoffs by a couple points."


We'd have to miss the playoffs by a country mile. (And even then, I dunno.) If it's close, we stick with the status quo. Because Red Wings.


Our best/only hope: kids. More specifically, we need a new prime-years Datsyuk and a new prime-years Zetterberg. I think Larkin is (going to be) that good. I think Athanasiou has that kind of top-end potential. I think Mantha can grow into a new prime-years Franzen. I've always felt Mrazek has Vezina potential. I think Saarijarvi is an elite talent. But it's probably going to be several years before Holland and Blashill are willing to truly hand the keys over to the next generation. Because kids have to "earn it," or some such bulls***.

#2683253 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Dabura on 15 July 2016 - 09:53 AM

Holland doesn't believe that young kids are the answer. I'm not going to say if he's right or wrong


It's not a black-or-white, all-or-nothing issue. Holland's making it one, but it's not one (or, it shouldn't be one).


The team needs more youth. It doesn't need all youth. It needs more youth. And more skill, more talent, more high-end ability. Greater possession prowess. Goal scoring. Being able to play without the puck. Young legs. Size. These are things we're lacking. These are things that an Athanasiou or a Mantha can provide, and for a dirt-cheap cap hit--and neither of these players has even come close to hitting his respective ceiling yet.


We're looking more and more like the Canadiens, and that's not a good thing. It's a bad thing. All this garbage about Grit and Character and Experience and Playing Without the Puck and Veteran Leadership and Knowing Your Place and Earning Your [insert whatever the hell it is you're supposed to be "earning"] -- it's all bulls***. And, accordingly, we'll be lucky to make the playoffs this season, just like 2015-16, 2014-15, 2013-14, 2012-13.

#2683186 Glendening signs 4-year, $1.8m AAV extension

Posted by Dabura on 14 July 2016 - 02:01 PM

I cant wait for other GM's to lowball KH on every trade offer this offseason as they know he HAS to make a trade.


He's going to re-sign Quincey. That'll be his excuse for not making a trade.


"Well, we feel Kyle Quincey is a real good player in this league. Real good defensively. Heavy on the puck. Big body. Plays with a bit of an edge. He can play on any pairing. He's versatile like that. We feel he's a real important part of our team and he's going to continue to be one as we move forward and compete for a Cup."



#2683161 Glendening signs 4-year, $1.8m AAV extension

Posted by Dabura on 14 July 2016 - 11:09 AM



Ken Holland needs to go. Now.

Wow quite a lot of money. He has to be one of the most enigmatic players for LGW. On one hand he's a fourth liner. Period. On the other, Babcock and now Blashill are more than comfortable giving him extended minutes in all situations atypical for a fourth liner. One coach doing it is maybe poor judgement, but two? I'm happy he will remain with Detroit but this seems like overpayment.


The Red Wings fetishize stupid things that don't -- or barely -- contribute to winning.

#2682463 Wings file for abitration with Peter Mrazek

Posted by Dabura on 06 July 2016 - 07:08 PM


#2682319 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Dabura on 05 July 2016 - 08:06 PM



Barrie and Landeskog are, for my money, two of the best players in the league. They have, I feel, been held back by Roy and, in a different way, by Sakic. They're possession monsters on an awful, awful, awful possession team. They put up points. They're proven top-end talents.


I'm not convinced that DeKeyser is more than a second-pairing defenseman. But Roy thinks Barrie is a #5 defenseman, because Roy is that kind of moron person, so he probably looks at DeKeyser and goes, "Oh, he's real good defensively. Great defenseman."


Ouellet isn't a big loss.


Losing Tatar, Nyquist, and Mantha...obviously that's hard to justify. But, honestly, we'd be getting the two best players in this deal. (And I say this as a defender of Tatar, Nyquist, Mantha.)






Here is DeKeyser's chart:



#2682233 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Dabura on 05 July 2016 - 07:30 AM



"The big thing in today’s game is you have to be able forecheck and backcheck, and you have to have the puck," Sutter said over the weekend (h/t Ryan Lambert). "You can’t give the puck up. We don’t play in our zone, so there’s not much defending."


[ . . . . ]


"The game’s changed. They think there’s defending in today’s game. Nah, it’s how much you have the puck. Teams that play around in their own zone (say) they’re defending but they’re generally getting scored on or taking face-offs and they need a goalie to stand on his head if that’s the way they play,” said Sutter.




"We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can't move the puck.


"Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn't defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he's making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he's only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."


#2682232 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Dabura on 05 July 2016 - 07:18 AM

Your answer to getting rid of black holes of possession on the roster is to play Pulkkinen? Really? When the puck touches his stick specifically, the other team is the next to have it. 


Pulkkinen's possession numbers are sparkling. Know why? He creates offense. Because that's what he is -- a point-producer. You can isolate a few examples where he flat-out turned the puck over. That's fine. But you have to realize that Miller and Glendening never have the freaking puck. You also have to realize that the best players in the league tend to turn the puck over a lot. (Few turn it over more than Subban, Doughty, Karlsson.) Does this make them terrible possession players? No. What it's reflecting is the fact that they have the puck a lot more than 97% of their peers do and they're always looking to move the puck, make a play, generate offense -- create.


All Drew Miller and Luke Glendening and Steve Ott do is react, endure, defend. They chase the puck. Contrary to popular belief, they're not helping our cause. Now that we have Frans Nielsen, who's one of the game's best two-way centermen, we really, really, really need to get past this "you need a fourth line that's real good defensively" bulls***.


The Penguins! They slaughtered all comers, and they did it the way it's supposed to be done -- by simply and utterly overwhelming them. Not by waiting them out. Not by enduring. Not by defending. The Penguins took the fight to everyone, and they were the last ones standing. The Penguins are one Cup-winner that the Wings really could learn a thing or two (or twelve) from. In the year 2016, Mike Sullivan's brand of aggressive possession hockey is The Right Way.

#2682231 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Dabura on 05 July 2016 - 07:04 AM

You'd happily put that line out for a D-zone start at an away game, knowing the home team have last change?


We have Frans Nielsen now. He can and does and will play brutal minutes.

We also have Darren Helm. And Dylan Larkin. And Andreas Athanasiou. And Riley Sheahan. And Justin Abdelkader. And Henrik Zetterberg.


And yet, we totally need a "gritty, defensive" fourth line of grinders. It adds so much to our arsenal!

#2682218 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Dabura on 04 July 2016 - 09:37 PM

Well - there would be scoring.  This much is true.


A line of Pulkkinen-Sheahan-Jurco would outperform a line that features the possession black holes that are Drew Miller and Luke Glendening. Ken Holland and Jeff Blashill and Mike Babcock would say, "Not good enough defensively." And therein lies the problem. This organization fetishizes defending, fetishizes playing without the puck, fetishizes a fundamentally flawed brand of hockey.

#2682217 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Dabura on 04 July 2016 - 09:30 PM

Ye but I'd rather see Ott on the 4th line because toughness is something we desperately lack.


"Toughness" (whatever that is) is not something we desperately need. We didn't beat Anaheim in 2013 because we were "tougher" than them. Chicago didn't beat us in 2013 because they were "tougher" than us. Boston didn't beat us in 2014 because they were "tougher" than us. Tampa didn't beat us in 2015 because they were "tougher" than us. Tampa didn't beat us this year because they were "tougher" than us. Not a single one of these teams was "tougher" than us.


We can't score to save our playoff lives, mainly because we lack elite talent at the top of our lineup. That's the big problem we're facing. Neither Miller nor Ott is going to help that cause. Using a "gritty, defensive" fourth line is an outdated strategy. You win with skill and by scoring goals. We need more goals. We need more skill, talent.