I'm ok with this.
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DaburaMember Since 27 Feb 2004
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In an octopus's garden
Posted by Dabura on 14 August 2014 - 12:42 PM
Posted by Dabura on 13 August 2014 - 03:50 PM
This is a good piece:
Core Values: Henrik Zetterberg at center of transitioning Red Wings [Chris Peters, CBSSports.com]
Posted by Dabura on 07 August 2014 - 03:57 PM
I guess where we respectfully agree to disagree, is that I believe to build a winner in the NHL nowadays takes much more time than it used to, and I believe because back in the early 2000's all the Wings had to do after a rough patch was make a few signings (ie. Hull, Robitaille etc.), or make a big trade (ie. Hasek, Lang etc.).....that people believe management should be able to do that now. It's simply a different world, and to have those same expectation are unrealistic.
I sort of think of it in terms of marriage and parenthood. The Wings of the 90s and early 2000s were a bachelor who was basically beholden to no one. Then that bachelor got married and became a father. Now he has certain responsibilities. Now every move he makes has to be born of a series of careful considerations. Would he like to spend every weekend with hookers? Maybe. Could he spend every weekend with hookers? Maybe. But, really, he can't. He shouldn't. Because he'd be a bad husband and father. Everything would fall apart.
If it were up to Ken Holland, he'd spend as much of Mike Ilitch's money as he could. Were it up to Ken Holland, he'd trade all his draft picks for all-star acquisitions. Were it up to Ken Holland, there'd be no cap, and we'd have a dynamite team every single season, like back in the 90s and early 2000s. But none of that's doable in the cap era. Every consideration is complex. Every draft pick matters. Realistically, every penny that can be pinched, is pinched. One wrong move can wreck your team - and organization (The All-Important Bottom Line) - for years.
At the end of the day, the Wings were a juggernaut for two straight decades. The cap and our empty prospect cupboards started to catch up with us, and Kenny decided to switch to a retooling plan, the idea being that we tread water for a few years in exchange for another ten years or more of contention. And even then, he's never been fully resigned to simply treading water, because he's gone for Suter, Parise, Edler, Niskanen, et al. I've given him s*** for that for the past couple of years, saying he's a hypocrite and whatnot. But I think all he really wants is to see the Wings win the Cup as soon as possible, same as us. Key thing is, though, he has to be responsible. He has to take a long view of things, has to know when to exercise restraint. He has to do what's best for the club in the long run and in the big picture. I have to give him a lot of credit. Were it me, I'd probably be more like Paul Holmgren, wheeling and dealing but never really getting his team anywhere, and, actually, probably hurting them more than he's helping them.
Posted by Dabura on 06 August 2014 - 08:09 AM
Until we win a cup again the rebuild hasn't been complete. So people should stop saying it worked cause fact is no one knows if it has or not yet.
Frankly for me its whatever comes first shows if it worked or not. Do we win a cup first or get a top 5 draft pick.
They wings have continued to make the playoffs but haven't been in contention for a cup in awhile. They still have many major holes and lots of kids who need to grow so it'll be a bit yet before we see the direction they're heading lately it's been downward.
I'm not saying, "The rebuild was a success! Hallelujah!" I'm just saying it's a thing, and it's been going on for probably at least the past three years, and it's still going on, and we should start reaping some benefits this season. And if we don't reap any benefits, and if nothing comes of all this but failure, then we have a serious problem and I'm going to revert to what I normally do, which is piss and moan. Then I'll be right there with you, DeGraa.
I think with the Wings winning 4 cups between ’97-’08, some fans have unrealistic expectations. In the post salary cap world, things simply are not going to be the same. Its not the payers faults, managements fault, or ownerships fault, just simply a result of the system in place.
Right. These past several years have been the first real hiccup in about 20 years. It's the cap and parity catching up to us. The last time we rebuilt, we had carry-over players like Lidstrom and Draper, and we'd managed to find two franchise players in Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and we weren't deep into the cap era. That it'd be harder this time was an inevitability. But I think the worst is actually over, which, if true, means our lowest point in about 15-20 years still saw us making the playoffs. And, like I've noted before, we've had some pretty s*** luck with postseason matchups, drawing two really good Sharks teams that had our number, a Predators team that had our number, a really good Ducks team (which we defeated), an elite Blackhawks team (which we nearly defeated), and an elite Bruins team. Granted, if you finish in seventh or eighth, you're getting what you deserve, which is a team that's superior to yours. But, still, I feel like we've been better than our recent results (mostly the past two seasons) would suggest. That, to me, is encouraging and gives me reason to be at least cautiously optimistic that we're going to see the start of something great in the next couple of seasons and that we could be back to seriously contending as early as 2016-17. Which would be pretty incredible, all things considered.
I really like our prospect pool and the young roster talent. I don't feel we have a Datsyuk or a Lidstrom, but we do have an overall stronger collection of young players than we're used to. Smith, DeKeyser. Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan. Jurco, Pulkkinen, Mantha, Athanasiou. Marchenko, Ouellet, Sproul, Backman, Jensen. Mrazek. Good things are coming our way, IMHO.
Posted by Dabura on 06 August 2014 - 01:17 AM
A minor thing I just wanted to clear up: when I say "basement" I mean bottom of the conference. That we could slide that far down is pretty much a non-possibility, IMO.
Here's a decent piece which, I think, sort of echoes the point I and others are making about the Wings' "five year drought":
Road to Recovery: How the Sharks are Rebuilding [The Hockey Writers]
To be honest everyone has their own idea of what a rebuild should involve. It could be trading away core players, acquiring draft picks, making the team younger, or hiring new staff which gives the team a newer look or in a sense “rebuilding” it. Essentially a team does a combination of all of these things but one thing that is absolutely not required in a rebuild is losing. A team does not have to lose in order to rebuild. The Detroit Red Wings are a prime example of this. They built a team that was meant to succeed in the playoffs off of a number of players such as Steve Yzerman, Brenden Shanahan and Sergei Fedorov. When it came time to rebuild the Red Wings did not have to begin losing due to players such as Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg and Johan Franzen. Now these players are starting to age but it looks as if the Red Wings are ready to rebuild on the fly again with players such as Tomas Tatar and Gustav Nyquist.
[ . . . . ]
There is a difference between what someone says and what someone does. What Doug Wilson has done in two years is get rid of eight players over the age of 30 while only signing three new players over the age of 30 in Hannan, Torres and Scott. At the same time the San Jose Sharks have managed to replace core positions within the lineup. Just like the Detroit Red Wings the San Jose Sharks are rebuilding but losing is not part of the formula. Good drafting and development coaching has kept the team competitive on the ice, which has deceived us into thinking there is no rebuild taking place in San Jose. Doug Wilson may receive criticism for not signing veteran players and making a few poor signings but he doesn’t receive any praise for helping the Sharks make the playoffs while they are rebuilding.
All teams rebuild but some teams do not lose when they do. The “winning rebuild” is nothing new as it worked for the Red Wings and Devils after the late 90′s. It also worked for the Montreal Canadiens who managed to win five or more Stanley Cups in three consecutive decades. Because of this “winning rebuild” it is tough to clarify what type of team the Sharks truly are.
Posted by Dabura on 03 August 2014 - 10:17 AM
Subban shoulda gotten 8, he's not better than Doughty/Weber although he benefits from having a Norris to his name
The comparisons to the Kane/Toews deal are sort of valid, but at the same time, let's keep in mind that Kane and Toews are two of the most popular, recognizable players in the NHL.Chicago has the biggest bandwagon fanbase in the NHL and if you lose Captain Serious and Kaner, you lose a whole bunch of revenue.
Montreal likes Subban but they'll always have a fan base and it wouldn't be the end of the world if they lost him.
It'd absolutely be the end of the world for the Canadiens if they were to lose Subban. I mean, I get what you're saying about Chicago, and you have a point, but the Habs' fanbase was having a nuclear meltdown during arbitration because they thought they might be losing Subban. All their hopes and dreams rest on him and Price, really. (Even Bob McKenzie and Elliotte Friedman were fanning the flames of fear.) And, again, he's just a very likable person, a great ambassador for the team and for the NHL and hockey in general and even Canada, and one of the best hockey players in the world. He's certainly right up there with Toews and Kane in terms of his importance to his team (and to the NHL in terms of marketing). Chicago doesn't have the crazy hockey culture the Habs have, true, but a generational franchise player is a generational franchise player. The Habs lost one of those in Roy. For that to happen all over again with Subban? Riots in the streets of Montreal.
As for the contract itself and the comparisons to Doughty and Weber, each of those deals was reached a few years ago, so you can't really compare them. This deal may be a wee bit high right now, but it's an eight year deal. The cap will be rising, which means inflation, which means the deeper we get into the contract, the better the value. And, of course, the only reason the term is eight years is the new CBA. Were this pre-new CBA, the term would be longer and the yearly hit would be spread out more, so it wouldn't be $9M every year.
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Posted by Dabura on 02 August 2014 - 01:21 AM
To be clear...
I don't necessarily believe things are going to go especially well for the Wings this season. The point I'm trying to make is this: for all the issues the Wings have, the teams that are, generally, considered tops in the East really aren't much better than the Wings, maybe not even better at all when you really get down to it (unless we're talking about the Bruins, who are among the best in the league because they have Chara, Bergeron, Rask, Lucic, Krejci, et al.)
I'm not justifying Ken Holland's inaction. If anything, I feel the conference being wide open almost makes him beholden to bring in a quality player or two that could give us a shot in the arm and maybe help us gain an edge over the other playoff-worthy teams.
Nor am I saying there aren't some very good teams in the East. I do think the Habs are slightly better than the Wings, but the key word is "slightly." It wasn't so long ago that we were all jacked up about a possible first-round date with the Penguins. We truly felt the Wings could take the Penguins out, and Penguins fans were praying for Columbus, and then the Hurricanes happened. Hell, like I said before, it wasn't so long ago that we took out an excellent Ducks team and almost did the same to an even better Blackhawks team, all with a roster that I feel was inferior to what we have now.
And y'know what else? A part of me wants us to finish in the basement so we can, hopefully, snag a genuinely elite prospect, maybe even one who could make an immediate impact. Hell, I probably wouldn't be totally opposed to tanking for a shot at a generational talent. So it's not like I'm in denial about where we stand. I just think this Wings team is better than this past season says we are. So much went wrong for us, but we squeaked into the playoffs. What if so much were to go right for us this season? Answer: we wouldn't be squeaking into the playoffs. What if even just a couple of the things that went wrong for us in 2013-14 were to go right for us in 2014-15? Answer: we wouldn't be squeaking into the playoffs.
I'm cautiously optimistic. I think that's the way to go.
Posted by Dabura on 01 August 2014 - 11:47 PM
Looking at the playoff teams WE ARE IN THE BASEMENT. Stop ignoring it. We were 8th. So many people here think were a top 4 team in either conference when was the last time that happened? Stop drinking the damn kool aid and face facts. Until we do better were a fringe playoff team. That's what's been proven these last several seasons.
Posted by Dabura on 01 August 2014 - 10:01 PM
The bruins who lost to Mtl who then lost to nyr are a powerhouse? Do people even watch hockey? Stop cherry picking stats fact is most teams got better in the easy and Detroit stayed the same...
The Bruins don't match up very well against the Habs. Any time those two play, it can go either way. That's pretty much what we saw in their *seven-game* series - it could've gone either way. If the Bruins advance, they beat the Rangers and they make their second consecutive appearance in the Stanley Cup Finals. For the most part, this team is toying with its conference and most of the West. They didn't get it done, but that doesn't mean they're not a powerhouse. The Wings were a powerhouse for the better part of two straight decades, but with that territory comes a lot of disappointment, as we all know.
As to your other point - I'll believe that most of the conference got better and is going to shove the Wings down into the basement when I see it unfold that way. Until then, I'm saying, as someone who's practically a LGW pioneer in the art of being hopelessly cynical and pessmistic about the Wings, that a healthy Wings team is right there with the likes of the Penguins, Rangers, Lightning, et al. and will challenge for a top seed.
Posted by Dabura on 01 August 2014 - 04:13 PM
This is a team which at best will finish around the 7 - 8 spot
I like you, frank, but I just can't get behind this. You're saying that at our best - which, as 2013 showed, is really quite good - we barely squeak into the playoffs in the weak East, and, to me, that's giving the conference way too much credit. I get that there's this narrative that we're barely clinging to life and THIS is the season that the playoff streak comes to an end, but I think it's largely just that - a narrative. Had we added Datsyuk in free agency, people would be saying, "Holy s***, Zetterberg and Datsyuk?! And they've got all these young studs like Nyquist?! This team's gonna be GREAT!" In fact, going into last season, a lot of the "experts" had us down for second or third in the Atlantic. Did we learn this past season that the conference is super-tough? No, we got destroyed by stupid-ass injuries - and, even then, we still made the playoffs.
The Bruins are an elite contender. They're a team built to win the Cup, and I'm not sure we stand a chance against them in the playoffs even with a healthy roster. But the Bruins are the only powerhouse in the Eastern Conference. Behind them are the Penguins, who feasted on a terrible division and didn't seem like world-beaters any of the times we played them; maybe the Rangers, who were lucky to make it to the Finals and are probably a weaker team this season (losing Pouliot and Boyle and Stralman is a big blow for them and they know it); maybe the Canadiens, who were terrible for stretches this past season and are, I think, entirely dependent on their goalie (look at their roster. Tell me, with a straight face, that they're much deeper and much more formidable than us); maybe the Lightning, who are setting themselves up for great success in the future but aren't there yet and very likely overachieved this past season because Bishop played out of his mind (remember: they lost him for the first round and the Habs streamrolled them); and I'm not even going to mention the Flyers or Capitals or Leafs or Senators or Devils or Hurricanes.
I believe the East is wide, wide open. I don't believe the Wings are truly a fringe team.
Think of all the points we pissed away. We get a few of those back, and we're not an 8th seed.
I can't imagine we don't substantially improve on this past season.
Posted by Dabura on 31 July 2014 - 11:29 PM
Even healthy the team hardly killed and lost against very beatable enemies. To each their own opinion but most experts and people in the know would put the Bolts and Pens over the Wings and rightfully so. The Rangers have a great defense and well the King, Habs Price so yeah even fully healthy those teams are just better. I would go as far saying that this Wings edition will be worse than the one we've had last season. The defense just isn't good enough to get the job done
The Wings are one season removed from beating an excellent Ducks team in seven and choking against an even better Blackhawks team. Those Ducks and Blackhawks were better than any of the current Eastern teams, aside from maybe the Bruins. That Wings team wasn't much better than what we have right now, maybe not better at all. What it had - at least in the playoffs - was Datsyuk, Zetterberg, a surprise third line, a red-hot Jimmy Howard, and the underdog thing. Smith and Quincey were disasters, and they'll be better this season. DeKeyser was getting his first taste of NHL action, wasn't as good as he's going to be this season. Kindl was overachieving. Andersson and Brunner were key contributors. Flip had already checked out. All of this and more tells me we can do damage in the East, we just need to be "healthy and humming," as I like to put it.
You mention we weren't very good this past season even when we were healthy. I've made that point before, but I don't know if I really buy it. All teams have ups and downs. You can't really look at a few games and say that's our team. Or, if you're going to say that, you have to look at the bad and the good, and I think being able to say we choked against the Blackhawks in the second round in 2013 is, while not really something to be proud of, a "good" thing.
I feel like if we're talking up a team like the Rangers or Pens, we're just doing it to do it, we don't necessarily believe what we're saying. Like, having seen The Mighty Rangers and Canadiens and Penguins and Lightning in action in the playoffs a few months ago, did you find yourself saying, "Damn! These teams are great! No way do the Wings compete with them in a best of seven"? Bulls***. I'm not crazy about the Wings, but not for one second will I believe that a Wings team *that has its s*** together* (that's the key, of course) isn't in the discussion for a top seed in the conference. We had what was in many ways a miserable season, but I'm still not remotely scared of the East (except for maybe the Bruins). None of us should be. I can't stress this enough.
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