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#2569812 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by Dabura on 11 February 2015 - 01:14 PM

Smith is worse than Quincey AND Dekeyser in every single statistical category.  He's simply not better than they are.  I suppose you can try to make the argument that he's currently better than Ericsson, however probably not given Ericsson's role on that pair.  There are currently four better defensemen for our team's system.  No knock on Smith, he's looked better with Marchenko and that pair has made some things happen lately.  But this tired old "Smith's really super good, but the stars are just aligned to keep him on the third pair" crap is lame.  He's been given every opportunity to grab on to a top four spot.  He didn't win it.  Oh well. 


I wasn't necessarily defending Smith. You framed this as a discussion about what Babcock thinks of Smith - specifically, that Babcock doesn't believe he's a top-four defenseman.


Smith's a good defenseman. The big mistakes stick out in our minds and we judge him accordingly. He moves the puck well. He drives possession. He doesn't get PP time (make of that what you will), but Babcock isn't afraid to use him in key situations. He's an incredible skater. He's got a mean streak, reminds me of Stuart at times. I think of him as a dynamic two-way defenseman.


Pairing him with Quincey was a mistake, one that we rode for far too long. He should be paired with Kronwall (IMHO), but, again, the top four seems to be set in stone in Babcock's mind.


My one issue with him is actually his work in the o-zone. He doesn't shoot enough (and when he does, it tends to look almost like he's holding back, like he doesn't want to score). He has great offensive instincts, but, for whatever reason, he's struggling to make things happen. He's struggling to generate. He looks like someone whose special spark has been punitively beaten out of him.


I do think he's on increasingly thin ice. At 26, he needs to take that next step that we've been waiting for him to take. Ouellet and Marchenko want his job.

If anything is done - it'll be sometime on, or after July 1st.


Not that I necessarily disagree, but I feel like we say this every year. "He should wait until later." And then when that time comes, "He should wait until later." In the summer, we'll hear about our young players and how we want to see what they show us in training camp and how we'll make some decisions based on that. "There's no rush, no need to make a move in the summer. Might as well wait until the fall."

#2569786 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by Dabura on 11 February 2015 - 12:41 PM

Wings were scouting Toronto last night.  Just sayin'. 


We're definitely interested in Franson. I'd be absolutely shocked if we weren't. But I dunno if I can see Holland giving up a 2nd and a prospect for him and then committing $5.5M x 7 years to him. He's a good player. I like him as a Wing, in theory. But, does Babcock play him on the first pairing with Kronwall? Does he even play him on the second pairing (which would mean breaking up the shutdown pairing)? Is he a player Babcock feels he can really trust? Is he good enough on the defensive side of the puck? What if he settles in as a third-pairing guy on this team? Are we so sure that that wouldn't happen?

The Jets' top three is now Byfuglien, Enstrom, Meyers. That...is pretty damn decent.


I forgot about Trouba.



#2569780 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by Dabura on 11 February 2015 - 12:25 PM

Watching Hockey Central @ Noon. Kypreos and MacLean always kill me. Guest Tim Campbell makes a good point about Kane: he's not a playmaker, he doesn't have especially good vision, he needs to have the puck on his stick and he needs to be looking and thinking and playing in straight lines. If I've had concerns about Kane (in terms of him maybe becoming a Wing), those are the concerns, and they're not minor ones. Kypreos responds with the standard "YEAH BUT HE CAN HIT AND FIGHT AND HEART AND GRIT AND HEART" business. (Can you tell Kypreos wasn't a high-end player?) And then MacLean wants to know if this move makes sense for Buffalo, because it hurts them in the short term. I just....ugh. These are the people who keep the rumor mill going. These are the people who said this would be the year the Wings finally miss the playoffs.

#2569776 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by Dabura on 11 February 2015 - 12:16 PM

Mike Babcock does not believe Brendan Smith is a top four defenseman.  If he was, he would be.


Not sure I believe that. I think Babcock is just majorly against splitting up Kronwall-Ericsson and he wants a clockwork shutdown pairing, which he's found in DeKeyser-Quincey.

#2568504 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by Dabura on 05 February 2015 - 01:37 PM

Your kidding right? It's all over the sports news all the time here how he loves toronto and how toronto isn't willing to budge from the 4 mill per ballpark , it has nothing to do with past 1 year offers ... if they realize how amazing he is they'd just give him the 5 per longterm and be done with it


The Leafs are in hockey hell. They have to rebuild. To that end, they need to move out some big contracts and stockpile futures. So, Franson @ $5.5M x 7 years doesn't necessarily make sense for them. They're already up against the cap ceiling, even without a Franson extension.


Even if Franson @ $5.5M x 7 years does make sense for them, Shanahan shouldn't be in this position in the first place. Franson should be on an affordable, manageable multi-year deal that takes him into the second or third year of his UFA years. His cap hit this season and next season and maybe even the season after that should be something like $3M, which would be a great value and would give them flexibility in terms of $ and term as well as trade options, as opposed to a huge $5.5M x 7 years deal that takes him from age 27 to age 34 and puts them in an even deeper hole in terms of their ability to wipe the slate clean and start over with only one or two big contracts on the books (one of them being Clarkson, who pretty much can't be moved). My point being, I could see Shanahan saying, "I'm not paying for a Nonis mistake unless I absolutely have to. We need to get out from under the mistakes of previous regimes, not double down on them in the first year of our rebuild."


As for Kronwall - our D corps doesn't generate enough offense. Kronwall is the only defenseman we have who can give us eight goals and 45 points. A truly elite team should have at least two guys like that. When we won the Cup, we had Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Kronwall. Now? We have a 34-year-old Kronwall and three "defensive defensemen" in Ericsson, DeKeyser, Quincey. Our blue line doesn't move the puck well enough, struggles to hit the net with shots from the point, and, again, just doesn't give us the production we need.

#2568433 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by Dabura on 05 February 2015 - 04:16 AM

First off, there's no saying they land Franson


I didn't say otherwise.


My point is that Poile wants to upgrade a D corps that's already significantly better than ours and is arguably tops in the league. Poile should probably just be happy to be making the playoffs and being a top team. Instead, he wants to make his team even better, because why not. He wants to Go For It, because why not. Strike while the iron is hot, because why not. That's the approach I feel the Wings should be taking. We've liked our team for several years now, but we haven't made it past the second round in several years. This is the best team we've had in several years and I think we should Go For It, because why not.


I want that top-three defenseman. Without him, we can't win the Cup. Ouellet, Marchenko, and Sproul are all very promising, but not one of them is ready to be that gamechanging piece that puts us over the top.

#2568432 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by Dabura on 05 February 2015 - 03:41 AM

Except it's really shanahan running everything now so your post doesn't apply


Franson's in the prime of his career. He's big, reasonably mobile. He can move the puck, score goals, put up points. (This season, he's been good for six goals, 30 points. Kronwall has been good for five goals, 28 points.) He's money on the power play. He can play big minutes against tough competition. He's a top-three defenseman on most teams, the Wings being one of them. We could really use a player like him. The Leafs, not so much. They're in a world of hurt right now because they've made bad decision after bad decision after bad decision. One of those bad decisions: handing Franson two short "show-me" contracts. Had they realized what they really had in him, they would've signed him to a longer deal that covered his first few UFA years.

#2567968 Buffalo Sabres could go for the record

Posted by Dabura on 03 February 2015 - 09:32 AM

McDavid won't help Buffalo.  Some teams are just mismanaged.  Sure, Pittsburgh and Chicago got lucky.  They drafted Crosby AND Malkin and other high talents.  Edmonton, too, but they're just so bad they mismanaged that, too.


One potentially great player won't turn or even start the turnaround for Buffalo. How many teams in the past had one or two great players but the team never went anywhere?


I guess it's a start but I won't be expecting a turnaround on the scale of Pittsburgh or Chicago.


Kinda harsh, don't you think? Darcy Regier drove the franchise into the ground. Tim Murray's job is to get out from under Regier's mess, which everyone in Buffalo knows and accepts is going to take years, even if they land McDavid. They've got to start somewhere, though, and McDavid/Eichel is as good as it gets. And it's not just McDavid/Eichel. Girgensons is a future 1C and, I believe, one of the few young NHLers who has a shot at being somewhere in the neighborhood of Datsyuk-good. Getting McDavid/Eichel means Girgensons, a future 1C, won't have to be a 1C, which gives them a Datsyuk-Zetterberg one-two punch situation at center. They also have the likes of Reinhart and Ristolainen and Zadorov and McCabe, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they moved Myers (and, say, Stewart) for O'Reilly. "How you like them apples?" Murray asks, sheepishly. And, holy hell, the man's only been on the job for, what, a season and a half? He's just getting started, and, frankly, that's kind of a scary thought.


I mean, I get it. We're the Wings, we do things the right way, f*** the Sabres and their shameless tank job. But, remember, there was a time when we were the Dead Things and it looked like the Cup would never return to Detroit. What started the turnaround? We sucked hard in the 1982-83 season, which allowed us to pick fourth overall in the draft, which allowed us to pick Steve Yzerman (though, only because the guy we really wanted - Pat friggin' LaFontaine - had already been picked). That gave us a true franchise player that we could build around, and that's what we did. We got lucky with Fedorov (fourth round, 74th overall). We got lucky with Lidstrom (third round, 53rd overall). We stole some Russians. We got Scotty Bowman. We brought in some outside help. Finally, 14 years after Yzerman was drafted (and not long after we'd considered flipping him for Yashin), we won a Cup. And then we won a couple more. And then we won another one. Which is incredibly impressive. But, the flipside of that is we were a perennial Cup favorite for two straight decades and we only (I know, "only") came away with four Cups. We've only won one in the cap era. All those years with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Lidstrom, and we only won one Cup. Point being...actually, I don't remember. I went off on a tangent there.

#2567808 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by Dabura on 02 February 2015 - 12:45 PM

My biggest issue with waiting one more year is that the planets really seem to be aligning for us this season. Zetterberg's having an absolute best-case scenario campaign, and the same can probably be said of Datsyuk. (If Datsyuk or Zetterberg starts to falter, we're not winning the Cup. Unless we add a top-end centerman.) Howard's been great, and we've basically been able to spot him a few weeks of rest without it impacting our place in the standings. Special teams, shot suppression, puck possession - our underlying numbers are really damn good for a team that doesn't have any prime-years all-star studs. The East, again, is as wide open as it's ever going to be, and we're right there at the top. This might be (but likely isn't) Babcock's last go-around with the Wings. Maybe most importantly, Babcock and Holland have pretty much come out and said that this team is a year or more ahead of schedule - so whatever The Plan was in the fall, it's safe to say it's changed, or has at least been accelerated.


If we add a top-three defenseman, one who can move the puck and put up points and play big minutes, we're as good as any team in the East. If The Right Deal presents itself, Holland should go for it. Strike while the iron is hot. If The Right Deal doesn't present itself...well, I'll be highly skeptical. But I'm used to trade deadline disappointment. Que sera, sera.

#2567149 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by Dabura on 30 January 2015 - 01:21 PM

The thing is, where most fans and even a lot of GM's look at what will benefit the team this season, Ken Holland is looking at this season, as well as 5+ years from now.


Ken Holland traded a first-round pick for Kyle Quincey.


Ken Holland threw crazy money at Zach Parise and Ryan Suter. Had we signed them, "5+ years from now" wouldn't have been a thing anymore. We would've spent the duration of those enormous contracts living year-to-year, selling off young, homegrown assets when they became too expensive to hold on to. (Not necessarily saying it wouldn't have been worth it. Just saying.)


Ken Holland traded one of our better prospects and a second-round pick for a rental so that we could limp into the playoffs and keep The Streak alive.


Ken Holland courted Stephane Robidas, who was injured at the time and, as he's failed to establish himself as a regular on the Maple Leafs' blue line, is pretty clearly washed up.


Ken Holland has pursued Rick Nash, Alex Edler, Jarome Iginla, and probably every other big name under the sun. Eventually, we're going to land one of those big names. Because, at some point, you have to. We added Rafalski in the summer of '07 and Stuart in February of '08. The Kings added Williams and Richards and Carter, and then Gaborik. The Blackhawks added Sharp and Oduya and Hossa.


That's half the reason why you stockpile assets in the first place - so that you can trade them. You don't wait to see how each and every one of your promising prospects pans out. If you have your seven D slots filled, and you've got as many as five really good D prospects in the pipeline, and you're a Keith Yandle away from being a Cup favorite, and Keith Yandle is - for the first time ever - known to be available, and you have three more years left with Datsyuk...do you really say, "Well, we have to think about 5+ years from now"? I mean, sure, of course the future's a consideration. But, um, I'm personally not willing to wait 3-to-5 years to see if one of our prospects (at least two of whom inevitably won't be Red Wings, if only because we're not going to have enough room) becomes as good and valuable as Yandle is right now. Our blue line doesn't move the puck well enough and doesn't produce enough offense. Smith isn't producing. Ouellet doesn't have Yandle's offensive upside. Marchenko is a shutdown defenseman. Sproul is a couple years away from being a regular, never mind an impact player. You're telling me we can't afford to part with any of these players, even if we're getting a top-pairing defenseman who can score 50 points for the scoring-challenged Coyotes?


We need a Rafalski, and we need him while Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still dominant players. We're going to have to give to get him. If we're going to wait to see if one of our prospects becomes a Rafalski, we're taking a bigger risk than the one we'd be taking if we acquired that player. Because, we don't know where we're going to be 5+ years from now (though, we do know Datsyuk will be gone and Zetterberg will be a shell of the player we have today and Nyquist and Tatar and DeKeyser will be making serious money). I'm not saying we should trade one of our untouchables. I'm assuming we can add a Yandle without having to part with one of our crown jewels. Which is one of the perks of having a ton of assets. You can afford to part with a couple pieces. Pulkkinen isn't a key roster player for us right now, nor is Jurco, nor is Smith, nor is Ouellet, nor is Marchenko, nor is Sproul, nor is the pimple-faced 18-year-old we'd draft with our mid-to-late first-round pick. Remove two or three of these pieces and we're still a contender, and our future is still extremely bright, especially with a top-end defenseman in the prime of his career being added to the fold.


We're contenders. Datsyuk and Zetterberg and Kronwall and Nyquist and Tatar and Sheahan and DeKeyser have all avoided major injury this season. The Eastern Conference crown has never been so up-for-grabs. We should make a push. Why say, "Well, it's great that we're contenders, but what about 5+ years from now?" Well...maybe we're contenders 5+ years from now. But...we're contenders...right now...? I'm not talking about selling the farm. I'm talking about moving a D prospect plus Pulkkinen/Jurco. If that's completely out of the question, then we're never going to make a meaningful trade and this team is never going to reach its full potential. We draft and develop well, but not well enough that we can say, "Y'know what, let's try to win with an entirely homegrown roster." Why would we make that a thing? Even if it's possible, it's certainly not realistic. Every Cup-winning team that has ever been has needed some outside help.

#2566586 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by Dabura on 28 January 2015 - 02:00 PM

Sabres GM bemoans 'very, very quiet' trade market [ProHockeyTalk]

“It’s been quiet, to be frank,” he said. “It’s been very, very quiet. We’re fairly close to the deadline and I didn’t expect it. I don’t expect every team to be active, but there usually are a small amount of teams that don’t wait for the deadline, that like to get it done before the deadline.”


Sabres' Murray: "I would love to be Kenny Holland" [Nichols on Hockey]


On how he has a dream job and if he’s having fun listening to trades:


“No. It’s no fun. I would love to be... who? I would love to be Kenny Holland. 23, 22 years making the playoffs. Not having GMs call you about available players because there’s nobody available. And the only trade you have to make, each and every year around the deadline, is to add a veteran guy to play on your third line or whatever that you feel could put you over the top, and that may be a second round pick. If it’s a second line player, maybe a first round pick. And you know you don’t even mind giving up a first round pick because you have that type of team. That would be fun, to me.

#2566164 1/27 GDT : Red Wings 5 at Panthers 4

Posted by Dabura on 27 January 2015 - 02:54 PM

Cleary is in!!!


No more Teemu? :(


If it ain't broke, break it.

#2565756 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by Dabura on 24 January 2015 - 12:50 AM

Jarnkrok isn't exactly lighting it up, on one of the best teams in the league at that. He's a 3rd line center, and we have plenty of those.


Jurco isn't exactly lighting it up, on one of the best teams in the league at that. He's a fourth-line winger, and we have plenty of those.

#2565734 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by Dabura on 23 January 2015 - 07:36 PM

Undrafted Giordano has some draft advice for NHL GMs [ProHockeyTalk]


“You’ve got to play a bunch of seasons before you really understand that it’s all about position and not running around and making bad reads,” he said. “For young guys to come in and be really effective defensemen, like [Drew Doughty and Aaron Ekblad], they’re pretty special players to be able to read the game the way they do at such a young age.”


Giordano was asked, if he were an NHL general manager with a late-round draft pick to use on a defenseman, what would he look for?


“The number one thing is hockey IQ,” he said. “Just look for a guy who reads the game well and sees the ice. At the end of the day, playing in your own zone is going to take a while. I think if you can look for guys who can move the puck and make plays, those are guys you can build around.”

#2565319 Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

Posted by Dabura on 20 January 2015 - 11:04 PM