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Member Since 11 Jun 2002
Offline Last Active Aug 07 2011 02:05 AM

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In Topic: Grade Holland

30 July 2011 - 02:50 AM

I vote B+.

Loved, loved, LOVED the Ian White signing, especially for that price.
I love that he brought back Eaves.
Commodore is fine for what we paid.
Conklin was a nice pickup and I like that he cut the cord with Osgood, just because he was a really high injury risk at this point in his career. It was time for Drapes to pack it in as well.

On the downside, he overpaid Ericsson, though probably not by a ton with regard to what other players were going for. And I think Drew Miller is a dime-a-dozen player. I don't see the need to pay more than the league minimum for a guy like that. Still, that's a minor issue.

I like that we still have flexibility under the cap. I'm curious to see what, if anything, he does (or if he banks it for the new CBA or when the FA crop next year comes around).

I feel like the team is probably slightly worse than they were last year, but I also think that's a team that could've won the Cup if they stayed relatively-healthy in the playoffs. White might not replace Rafalski, but for the money he did about as well as he could've.

In Topic: Osgood should(n't) be included in the HoF...

30 July 2011 - 02:43 AM

His numbers do put him as the best of the best.

His play does too, he was clutch which is worth a hell of a lot more. I watched the games before Osgood, during his hay day, and after and still don't think there is a glove hand as good as his. There definitely is not a stronger mental Constitution among goaltenders. He isn't the number one goaltender of all time, but he without a doubt is in the top twenty, and as you said there are thirty or so tenders in the hall so I don't see why you would leave him out just because he was on a good team.

I seem to remember there being a HoF defenseman on the Devils... should we leave Marty out? Oh s***, Yzerman played with tons of hall of famers, better leave him out as well. If these statements seem absurd, it is because they are. Osgood shouldn't get that treatment.

That's true about his numbers. And actually that was the very first thing I said in my post.

He was clutch in 08. I'll never forget his play during that playoffs. He was fantastic. That year.

He's not a top-20 goalie of all-time. This was exactly the point I was trying to make about him being severely overrated and underrated at the same time. The guy was never voted the best goalie in the league for one season. The Wings dropped him in a hot second when Hasek became available (even at age 36) and he had like 3 great seasons in the decade after that. He was a good goalie overall, there were a few season he was great, there were a few seasons he was terrible.

I'm not leaving him out just because he was on a good team or because he played with Hall of Famers. I specifically made a point of saying that argument is kind of lame and that it doesn't give him nearly enough credit he deserves (this would be the "underrated" part of the argument). He was clearly a big part of the wins that the Wings piled up over the years. But it's also true that it's highly unlikely that he'd be top 10 in wins if he had played 70% of his career with the Islanders. The team does play a role in it, and it's why I look at more than just wins and losses.

I leave him out because in my opinion there were only a 2-3 seasons where I'd have put him in the top 15-20% (that's 5-6) starting goalies in the league. If I was going to throw his seasons into buckets for great (96, 04, 08), good (95, 97, 98, 00, 02), average (94, 99, 07), below average (01,09 only because of how good the playoffs were,11), and horrid (03, 06, 10), it's actually fairly even.

8 season good or great
3 seasons fairly average
6 seasons below average or awful

Those are fairly unscientific rankings, but it's still more subpar seasons than I'd want out of a Hall of Fame goalie and fairly in line with my opinion. Good goalie overall, had some great seasons, but had an awful lot of seasons where he wasn't that great.

There's no shame in being a really good player for a long time in the NHL and not making the HHOF. I wouldn't put him there largely for qualitative reasons more than quantitative. If it was rare that I'd put him with the greats of a season, I can't put him with the greats of all-time....

In Topic: Would We Have Won In 2002 If ...

24 July 2011 - 07:06 PM

Hasek had six shutouts in that postseason and put up a brick wall in back-to-back games when we were facing elimination against our arch-rival and their legendary goalie.

There's honestly no way to know for sure. The 02 team was the best of our recent Cup teams, but the 02 Avs were probably the best team we faced during any of those four playoff runs, no?

I don't think we win that Cup without Hasek. If you put 08 Osgood on that team, we win it. If you put 02 Osgood on that team, I really don't think we do. There's a reason they dumped Osgood and gave up a pretty darn good player and a high draft pick to go get Hasek. He delivered.

In Topic: Osgood should(n't) be included in the HoF...

24 July 2011 - 01:53 AM

The numbers say absolutely, but I vote no. Full disclosure: Never liked the guy in his first stint with the Wings. He won me over to a point with his play in the 08 playoffs--he was fantastic. I respect the way that he stuck with it and ultimately had a triumphant return in Detroit. It's pretty impressive to have the two best seasons of your career more than a decade apart. Quite honestly, had Detroit won Game 7 against the Pens in 09, there's no argument against putting him in. Maybe that's unfair to hang so much on one game, but three Cups as a starter and top 10 in wins has to get you in, regardless of how good the team you played on was. I'd put him in if for no other reason than keeping Cindy's name off the Cup.

But there are a couple of reasons I vote no, and they don't have anything to do with the lame "It was just the team" argument.

1) I just can't see putting a guy in the HHOF who had 2 or 3 years tops where he could be considered a top-5 goalie in the league. 95-96 and 07-08. It's pretty remarkable that he did it more than a decade apart, but that's really it. I'm sure people could make a case for another season or two, and that's fine, but I feel the HHOF should be for the elite. He got to that level for a couple of seasons, but certainly didn't sustain it for any amount of time.

2) Moreso, though, I just keep coming back to this. If you consider him a HHOFer, then the story goes like this: The Red Wings had a 28 year old future Hall of Famer. When a 36(ish)-year-old future Hall of Famer in Dominik Hasek came on the market the Wings couldn't jump on him fast enough. So then they had a 28-year-old future HOFer that was available. Surely teams would fall over themselves lining up and Detroit would get a nice return? Didn't happen. We got nothing in return.

What happened after that? (And I'm trying to be as balanced as possible with these evaluations)

01-02: Good season for the Islanders
02-03: Save % below .900. Bad.
03-04: Really good season for the Blues.
05-06: Save % below .900 for the Wings. Bad.
06-07: Meh. Pretty good numbers, but didn't play much.
07-08: Fantastic season. I'd probably argue that it was the best year of his career.
08-09: Career worst in GAA. Career low in Save %. Great run in the playoffs.
09-10: Below .500, a 3+ GAA, sub 89 save percentage. Didn't play a ton, but ugh.
10-11: Barely played, nothing special.

So you've got three really good seasons over the last decade of his career, a couple with a lack of games played, and 2-3 that were somewhere between subpar and awful. I don't think anyone would've argued back in 01 that he was on his way to the HHOF and when you look at it, he really didn't help the resume all that much once he left. The Cup was huge, but he didn't have himself a great decade there...

He was a good goalie, but I think the HHOF should be for the best of the best. There's what? 30 players in there who primarily played goalie? The win total puts him there, but I just don't think you can make a case for him as one of the 30 best netminders to ever play. I'd say about 1990 is when I can really start to remember watching hockey, which means right now there are 3 goalies that I've seen play in the HHOF. Roy, Fuhr, Belfour. We know Hasek and Brodeur are locks. I can't put Osgood up there with those guys. Those were the guys you feared going up against. I don't think Osgood ever got to that point, even though he had some great years and finished off a couple of them with Cup wins. But the one Vezina nomination, and the 3 All-Star games (two that he played in) are kind of glaring. Also, maybe it doesn't mean much, but the lack of any international play doesn't help. Really good at times, but not elite.

Is it possible for someone to simultaneously be one of the most overrated and underrated/underappreciated players in history? I do think that there are groups of Wings fans that drastically overrate him. At the same time, I think there's a much larger group of people who simply write off his successes to the team in front of him, which is a mistake, especially after seeing what he did in 08.

It just seems like there's a pretty high standard for goalies. I don't consider him a HHOFer, but that doesn't diminish what he accomplished in his career one bit.

Wow, that post got really long in a hurry. It's been awhile!