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e_prime

Member Since 05 Sep 2005
Offline Last Active Yesterday, 09:51 PM
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#2686295 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by kliq on Yesterday, 12:14 PM

Even just to make the cap situation work out, it almost has to be a base package of Nyquist + Smith/Marchenko going the other way. Trouba says it's about opportunity, not money, but he's probably still looking for something around 6M.

Not sure what I'd add to Nyquist + Smith/Marchenko, but there are limits. Not comfortable with AA, Mantha or Svech, but maybe a "B" prospect and 2nd/3rd/4th rounder. Despite his agent going public with the request, there's going to be no shortage of teams getting into a bidding war for a 22-year-old stud defender. The price is going to be high, regardless.

 

You're right......my trade wouldn't work because of the cap. You have to give up someone with a similar cap hit and guys like Mantha, AA are not even close to what Trouba will end up being.

 

Maybe you throw a guy like AA in there with a Smith/Tatar and a pick? Though losing AA and Tatar would hurt us offensively. I'm glad I'm not Holland right now.




#2685776 Darren Helm re-signed: 5 years, $3.85m AAV

Posted by kliq on 11 September 2016 - 03:14 AM

I didnt say he fabricated it. That doesn't mean his info was correct.

 

Again, if it were one other supposed team that was interested I would see where you are coming from, but its at least 4. I just dont see it, a bit too far fetched for me to believe that he received four incorrect pieces of information.

 

Again, this is not me saying that Helm deserved/should have been worth the contract, but rather me talking about what his market value was based on interest from other GM's. Huge difference.




#2685778 Darren Helm re-signed: 5 years, $3.85m AAV

Posted by krsmith17 on 11 September 2016 - 08:11 AM

Saying that Helm is overpaid is one thing, and myself along with every single person here have said the same thing. He is overpaid in cap (about $1M too much) as well as in term (a year or two too long). However, to say that Helm (as a player, forget his contract) is "very replaceable" is flat out wrong. A player with his speed, tenacity, forechecking and penalty killing ability has a ton of value to any team, especially in the playoffs. Again, yes he is slightly overpaid, but as long as he remains in the bottom 6, he should prove to be very valuable to the Red Wings for the next 3+ years. Also, I don't see the NTC as anything of significance. It's not like Holland would trade him in the next few years, even if he does become replaceable...

As for the few other teams that were willing to pay Helm even more, I'm sure there were, just like I'm sure close to every team in the league would love to have a Helm on their roster (again, looking at the player, not the contract).


#2685763 Brian McGrattan

Posted by GMRwings1983 on 10 September 2016 - 10:05 PM

I, for one, hope that he gets his ass handed to him.

 

So does everyone in the WWE, probably.  I've always heard the guy is an *******.  Plus, he's a Blackhawks fan.  




#2685750 Darren Helm re-signed: 5 years, $3.85m AAV

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 10 September 2016 - 04:20 PM

  • "Darren Helm’s NTC kicks in immediately and goes through the first three seasons of the deal (through 2018-19) with no modification. Only Helm waiving this clause would allow him to be traded.
  • If the Red Wings miss the playoffs in the 2018-19 season OR if Helm isn’t among the top 9 forwards on the team in terms of total ice time, then he will have no NTC protection between June 15th of 2019 and the trade deadline of the 2019-20 season (Year four of the deal).
  • If the Red Wings miss the playoffs in the 2019-20 season OR if Helm isn’t among the top 9 forwards in terms of TOI, then his NTC is void from June 15, 2020 throughout the remainder of the contract (June 30, 2021).

While any NTC probably shouldn't have been included, it was probably insisted upon by Helm's people so that he won't be headed to Vegas.

This quoted section, however, should alleviate some of Dickie's worries about Helm ending up on the 4th line in a few years. The team seems to be worried about that as well and left the option open to trade in that case.

To pre-empt some responses, If he plays himself onto the 4th line, then he might not be tradeable (at least without retaining some salary). It think it would be more due to our prospects taking over, though.

Deal was a year too long and a bit too much, but I'm still glad Helm's back.




#2685723 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Dabura on 09 September 2016 - 03:31 PM

Now this is an Ansar Khan.

 

 

I think we found our facepuncher!

 

GETTERDUNKENNY




#2685721 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by BottleOfSmoke on 09 September 2016 - 02:27 PM

lol, or the one that let it rip in the first place
 
But I bet that's the last face you'd like to see from your anesthesiologist before going under.


:lol:

*holds up syringe*

"I brought you a *pffffftt* present..."


#2685660 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by kickazz on 08 September 2016 - 12:28 PM

 
Look at the history of all the former cup winners:
Each one had at least 2 top 5 picks:
Chicago: Toews, Kane
Pittsburgh: MAF, Crosby, Malkin
LA: Kopitar, Doughty
Boston: they did it without a top 5 pick...but had a performance for the ages from Timmy Thomas, an elite center Bergeron and Chara clearing everyone and everything.

Lmfao. You were convincing for a second there.

But then you basically argued against yourself by bringing Boston up and came up with a pretty bad excuse. "They did it without a top 5 pick but had performance for the ages".

Last I checked you don't win a Stanley cup over 29 other teams unless someone is having a great performance. No team wins the cup if everyone is playing average on their roster lol.


#2685652 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 08 September 2016 - 03:10 AM

Not going to be a contender unless No-Trade Kenny stops sitting on his hands. The defense will blow. Besides, with most of the team signed long term for too much money, how are they going to keep Larkin and the rest of these future stars that are going to turn the team into legit contenders?

"Most of the team" is not signed to long-term deals.

 

We have some big contracts coming off in the next while and I don't foresee any problems. As prospects and young players we have most of them on cheaper RFA deals or entry level for a while. first "biggish" player to get UFA status is Nyquist in 3 years from now.

 

-Next year without Ott, Miller, Vanek, Kindl's penalty there's 3,905 - some goes Tatar,+Smith?(RFAs) then free agents, 

-Green's 6 mill is gone in 2 years - some goes to Larkin's+Mrazek's RFA deals, maybe small chance that we don't fit Sheahan in (but cap will go up so I"m sure we'll have space)

-Howard's 5.2 and Kronwall's 4.7 is gone in 3 years - re-sign Nyquist, roll in the extra cash.

-Ericsson's 4.25 is gone in 4 years




#2685651 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by kliq on 08 September 2016 - 02:57 AM

 

What I will say is this: let's wait and see. I think Larkin for sure has the talent, skill and work ethic to become a very solid top 6 center, will he become a number 1 center? Way too early to tell and I'm not going to have such ridiculous expectations for him.

 

And yes the streak is meaningless if it gets into the way of building towards a Stanley Cup. Great Boston's streak is longer fine, I'm sure UFAs are impressed by such streaks as seen with Stamkos, Lucic and Okposo. Even if Larkin does become a number 1 center, who is going to be the number 1 defenseman, who is going to be the highend sniper and who's going to be the second line center? Nielsen in 3 years at 35 years? yeah sure. LIke I've mentioned if people are happy with maybe making the playoffs and first round exits fine, more power to you my expectations for the Wings are building towards the cup and right now Ken Holland is NOT doing that. I'm also not going into semantics he himself stated that he's not rebuilding because he still believes this team has a chance..well if so trade for a defenseman and not talk about "hockey trades and being more aggressive" and then doing nothing other than bring in more patchwork players. I don#t care if people think it's disrespectful or whatever because sub par hockey with patchwork fixes each and every year is disrespectful to a program of excellence and to a team that was once known as the class of the NHL.

 

Look at the history of all the former cup winners:

Each one had at least 2 top 5 picks:

Chicago: Toews, Kane

Pittsburgh: MAF, Crosby, Malkin

LA: Kopitar, Doughty

Boston: they did it without a top 5 pick...but had a performance for the ages from Timmy Thomas, an elite center Bergeron and Chara clearing everyone and everything.

 

Kopitar wasn't a top 5 pick, you are just making that up to try to prove a point. He was picked 11th overall in 2005.

 

You make it sound like having a top 5 pick is a requirement/guarantee in winning a cup. Obviously drafting a franchise player will help those odds, but it by no means assures anything.

You list a couple teams that have won a cup with 2 top 5 picks in Chicago and Pittsburgh, but that is telling a story by using a small sample size. It can be done the other way as well.

 

The easiest go to is Edmonton, since 2006 they have had 6 top 5 picks, 9 top 10 picks and they have not made the playoffs one time in that span. How many top 5 or top 10 picks have Carolina, Columbus, Buffalo, Winnipeg/Atlanta, Florida, NJ, Colorado etc. had and done absolutely nothing.

 

Tanking is the right thing to do in certain situations (ie. I am not against Toronto tanking), we are not in that situation. We are a couple stars away from being contenders, and a couple of injuries away from being awful as we are in an age of parity.

 

I love how you say you are "NOT" going to argue semantics, only to then argue semantics in the same sentence (I think you did that twice on this page lol). We get it Frank, in your mind the only way to move a team in the right direction is to trade every player over the age of 25, get last place in the league, get a first overall pick who becomes a superstar, then win a cup. Great on paper, but in the real world it works only a small handful of times and more often then not it sinks a team. Guys like Kane, Crosby, McDavid etc. are not a guarantee to land by taking that approach.

 

I'm not even going to address the false narrative of UFA's refusing to come here, that has been proven wrong many times.

 

Nobody is saying that Larkin is going to win the Hart Frank, but the kid has talent and is the kind of player you build around. Add in Mrazek and the rest of the kids and we are building towards something. Maybe not this year, but in a couple years I can see us being legit contenders. Lets just all cross our fingers and hope we get that d-man. We all want the same thing here, nobody is cheering for mediocrity, we just disagree with how to get to our end goal.




#2685644 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 08 September 2016 - 12:18 AM

I would be because it's the right thing to do instead of hanging on to a meaningless streak. Sharks will need a rebuild soon too but they still have their defense fixed with Burns and Vlasic.

When you have a team that doesn't have a number 1 center, number 1 defenseman and UFAs aren't exactly knocking on the door there are 2 options: trade or draft them. Toronto learned this the hard way...Vancouver is going to learn it the hard way too soon. So I'd rather see young guys, who need 1 or 2 years at the worst in the minors develop, than seeing guys like Mantha sent down so some patchwork players can play...and I'd rather see mistakes from learning by doing instead of veterans who could be used for more draft picks taking spots away.

To me it seems like the Wings want to learn it the hard way and whoever follows Holland will be stuck with a leafs like sitatution before they decided to rebuild. If people believe being a team without a clear vision that drafts around 15 plus and either misses the playoffs or is out in the first round is exciting or something desirable more power to them..to me the red wings way should be building towards cup or bust.

Still not sure why you're using Vancouver and Toronto as examples. Also not sure what learning "it" the hard way means. If you mean you have to tank to success - your examples work against you. Both those teams were bad for extended periods Van (96-00), Leafs (06-) and weren't been able to put together championship teams from time in the tank. 

 

Vancouver ruined an elite team with the goalie debacle of losing 2 elite goalies in Schneider and Luongo - 2 assets they should have got more for. Then they alienated Kesler with this debacle and by hiring Tortorella. If you want to learn from this example, keep your future goalie (Mrazek is Schneider in this parallel) and treat your Stars well and show them you're a competent GM.

 

I think our strategy is to keep our picks and try to draft well. I think we've gotten our future #1 center that way, and a goalie I think I think will be great and some other very good players. Looking at our recent 1st round picks (Larkin, Mantha, Svech) I don't think it out of the question that we pull a top defender in the next few years. Next year there seems to be a number of good Dmen in the draft that I've been checking out that we might get a chance at: Timothy Liljegren, Callan Foote (Adam foote's son), Nicolas Hagues (6'6")

 

In a few years, I really think we could put together a contender with our prospects and young players except for the big hole of #1D, so I don't get the sour outlook and desire to tear it down. There was some head-scratching moves this offseason, though, so makes a little more sense why people are frustrated.




#2685632 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by PavelValerievichDatsyuk on 07 September 2016 - 08:01 PM

I agree with the Vanek part to a certain extent, but we could trade him at the deadline and get something for him and then he would be a good move long term. Anyway, when you add a potential 50 pt. guy for a 1 year deal without giving anything up, I think you have to do it - you either gain a tradeable asset or he doesn't perform and nothing lost. Or you extend him a year or 2 (not long term) so that Larkin or AA have high level linemates to develop with and let Mantha, and other propects work their way up from the 3rd line competition.

 

The idea that Helm, Glendening are blocking youth is false, though, when you have Miller, Ott taking roster spots and you don't even say which prospects you want on the team.

 

Frank, I think you hit an important point, when you mentioned semantics. I think you guys are talking about a Tanking rebuild. And, no, we're not doing that. It's the often mentioned rebuild on the fly. For those uninterested when we're just making the playoffs, I doubt you would be more interested in 5 years at the bottom of the league. 




#2685609 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by joesuffP on 07 September 2016 - 10:37 AM

Zetts-Nielson-Nyquist
Tatar-Larkin-Abby
Mantha-AA-Vanek
Sheahan-Glen-Helm

Lots of depth at forward

DD-Green
Smith-Marchenko
Kronwall-E

Lots of questions on D. Can Green play efficiently enough at 20+ minutes a night? Can Kronwall bounce back and be a good top 4? Need another RH top 4 badly. Marchenko is likely over his head in the top 4. Adding a RH'd top 4 and ditching E really solidifies all three units

this is the for at time in a long time I'm not that excited for the new hockey season. I have zero confidence that the Wings are going to do.much more than sneak into
the playoffs and lose in 4 or 5. Holland's body of work the last several years has taken the team from contender to mediocre and he hasn't done anything to get them back to contender status. Only two non-rental trades, middle of the roster players signed to long term deals, and almost every free agent has blown up in his face.


Kind of crappy outlook as a fan. Only interested when they're contenders? Would you watch them be a lottery team like you wish they were?

I enjoy these rebuilding years. For this first time since Steve Yzerman we're watching a 20 year old kid be the best player on the team. Mrazek, AA etc. Our best players are the youngest on the team


#2685507 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by krsmith17 on 04 September 2016 - 07:55 PM

It would be Ericsson for me, not even close...


#2685504 Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Posted by Buppy on 04 September 2016 - 06:46 PM

A second line forward is more valuable than a top pairing D? Fowler and Trouba are both young enough to be helping Detroit for several years.

I think it's pretty well established that we are not all in perfect agreement in our assessments of the players we're talking about. Yes, I think AA will be more valuable than Fowler or Trouba. Obviously you disagree. No need to wander in circles.

 

Regardless, I think it's moot, as I explained in the previous post.