I'm apalled that there is no discipline by NHL. Aren't they already being sued by ex players for concussion issues and head injuries? This kind is not even 'hockey play' and need to seriously get this sh*t out of the game.
Posted by kipwinger
on 24 February 2015 - 10:12 AM
I agree that fighting is harmful in that it can leave a player with long-term issues related to concussions, brain trauma, etc. If that's your only argument, fine.
But to say a genuine fight doesn't impact a hockey game is silly. That's like saying a big hit or shot block doesn't affect the momentum of a game either. Or the crowd even. There are too many variables and differing scenarios that a scientific study won't be able to capture this.
Also, chemistry and camaraderie are vital to any hockey club. Sticking up for your linemate after a dirty hit is part of being a good teammate. You don't want think stuff like that brings a team closer together?
The research shows that after a fight there IS an offensive surge. For one, or both teams, and not necessarily for the team that starts, or wins, the fight. Both teams get amped up. I never said guys didn't get amped up after fights. Sure they do. But it doesn't reliably make your team play any better, AND it might actually make the other guys play better.
Secondly, I certainly agree that chemistry and comraderie are important. But there are tons of ways to develop chemistry and comraderie. The Wings are always near the bottom of the league in fights, but don't seem to noticeably suffer from a lack of team cohesion, while a team like Edmonton (which fights much more often) does. Given how many other methods there are to accomplish team unity, and given that fighting doesn't seem vital to achieving it, I'm going to err on the side of caution and suggest we dispense with the method that kills people's brains slowly.
Posted by kipwinger
on 23 February 2015 - 10:01 PM
Fighting doesn't have any impact on the sport? March 26, 1997 called to disagree.
"This is a game that brought the Red Wings together," said Vernon, who picked up his 300th career win. "Whether it was the first-period fighting or the overtime goal, a game like this only helps give you confidence to go into the playoffs. When you go to the playoffs, everybody has to be ready to do the job and stay together. Tonight showed the guys were willing to pay the price."
Well as interesting as a bunch of anecdotal evidence is, actual scientific research suggests that fighting has no positive effect on the outcome of the game. The ol' eyeball test is good for finding a date on a Friday night, but if you want to find the truth about real world phenomena...you have to use science. Bummer.
"We can see in all four of these data sets that there is no evidence that winning a fight leads to better results in the immediate aftermath of the fight. In fact, it appears that the team winning the fight will score slightly less goals in the game than they did previously. In all four groups, the percentage of goals scored by the winning team is within 1.96 standard deviations of the percentage of its total goals scored, indicating that the results are negligible. Thus, we cannot reject the null hypothesis that winning a fight has no impact on a team’s momentum and goal differential."
So, I guess, our overall conclusion from this study isn't completely certain. We wind up with a summary like:
1. The effect doesn't seem to exist for run-of-the-mill fights. 2. When a goon fighter on a goon team fights when his team is down, it seems to benefit that team by 1/8 of a goal, or a bit less than a normal power play. 3. But, that effect isn't statistically significant, so we have some doubts that it's real. 4. And, with only 364 such datapoints qualifying out of around 5,000, only a small percentage of fights match the criterion for that kind of boost.
If you had to reduce that to one line, it might be: At best, there might be a small effect in certain specific circumstances ... but much, much less than sportscasters make it out to be.
If you watch video of us back then, it barely resembles the way the NHL is played today. It’s more similar to how Barcelona play soccer. Our philosophy was about puck control, improvisation, and constant movement. Now, the game is all about “north-south,” chip-and-chase. We moved side-to-side and swooped around the ice looking for open spaces. A backward pass was just as good as a forward pass. You didn’t have to see your linemate. You could smell him. Honestly, we probably could have played blind.
I miss the 90s when the Wings played like that on a regular basis. What a beautiful thing it was.
Posted by kipwinger
on 23 February 2015 - 01:00 PM
I do not believe this has happened in any other sport with success. You still have guys blasting qbs and wrs. Still have people stomping on guys. Also mind you this is hardly an easy thing to make happen the nhlpa would certainly be against it. I do not believe that fines can be made substantial enough for there to be a noticeable decrease in dirty hits.
I like fighting because I like to see people stand up for themselves.
This is exactly the problem with this debate. The fighting people ways respond with "well fines won't get rid of cheap shots 100%". Of course they won't. But it'll work better than enforcers have. Every single contact sport has fewer malicious hits and cheapshots than the NHL has because they have stiffer fines.
Don't believe me? What was the big dirty hit epidemic the NFL used to have? Spearing. You almost never see it in NFL games anymore. Why? What got rid of it? Definitely not a bunch of goons beating the s*** out of each other. It was fines. BIG fines.
You guys act like if another method of punishment won't completely eradicate dirty hits, that it's not worth doing. That's false logic. The fact that it's not a PERFECT deterrent doesn't mean it's not a BETTER deterrent.
Posted by The Greek
on 22 February 2015 - 02:31 PM
Nope Benn should have had to answer for that in Maguire style. Nothing will come out off this if people are expecting pay-back it has to be done on ice if only guys who can do that were available ... oh wait they are it just takes a phone call to Toronto or Calgary.Running to the league like ******* won't teach other teams a lesson, saying enough is enough will do so. I.e Isles Pens 2 years ago
You're right, and that's the problem. If this was any other sports league, it would be a much bigger deal. Even if you like fighting, it should not be an institutionalized form of punishment. Even if someone did fight Benn, there's no guarantee Benn would get what he deserves. Benn is pretty damn tough. You're basically arguing that we must risk injury to another player in order to enforce the rules. Furthermore, in your ideal system, the best fighters are above the rules, because no one can "punish" them.